Lessons Learned from RMAC: JOE KNOWS HOSES and just might have saved my life!

[UpNorthAirGunner]

JOE KNOWS HOSES and just might have saved my life and yours!

This is Joe Brancato from www.airtanksforsale.com with Alvero Lopez, winner of the RMAC 100 Yard Challenge. I got the chance to meet Joe in person and glad I did because our conversation helped me think twice about my buying habits when it comes to fill options for airguns.

I told Joe about something that happened to me this winter while shooting tethered on a picnic bench at our cottage when it was about 15 degrees F outside. I got about 5 shots into my bench time and BAM! WHOOOOOOOOSHHHHHH!!!!!! I thought I was dead. My ears were ringing for two days!

(this isn't my hose, but a photo Joe sent me and mine looked pretty much just like this)

My hose had peeled away from my fill port and had a catastrophic failure. I blamed it on the cold temperature, but Joe asked me the question that changed everything. Where did I buy that hose?

Well..... The hose came with a 4500 PSI Carbon Fiber tank I got off of Ebay from a Chinese dealer for a GREAT DEAL! Like half of what I was finding here in the U.S.

This is where Joe's nickname of the Airgun Scientist went from cute to real and I mean like life or death real. I also learned that Joe's nickname the Airgun Scientist isn't just a catchy name - but he is actually a trained Aerospace Engineer with a TON of higher education in Physics.

He went onto tell me that how he got into designing airgun fill equipment was because he saw the industry or at least some vendors in the industry adopting paintball and airsoft gear to apply it to high pressure airgunning. The issue is most of that gear isn't rated for the 3000-4500 PSI pressures we work in.

It most likely wasn't the cold that made that hose fail - it was more than likely a hose rated for 1800 PSI! Furthermore I told Joe that I had been using an ACECARE Carbon Fiber bottle which was marketed as 4500 PSI but says 300 bar on the bottle (not 4500 PSI). Doug Noble had warned me about this earlier this year and I took his advice to not fill that bottle over 4250 PSI and stay within the 300 bar specs. But Joe went even further.

Those bottles aren't DOT certified and think what you want about government regulations and "the man", but Joe's view point is if you want to take that risk at your own home airgunning range - that is on you. If you are going to bring that kind of gear to competitions like RMAC, don't risk the lives of others around you!

I am paraphrasing, but he basically said, "...if a hose fails you lose your hearing for awhile, if a tank or bottle fails, you could lose your head."

Damn. Talk about a truth smack down. I had a 9 hour drive back to Denver that afternoon to catch my flight back to Michigan and no pun intended - his words rang in my ears the entire way and I couldn't stop thinking about it. As soon as I got home I threw out the other two hoses I got from that vendor and will be throwing out that Chinese-ium Carbon Fiber tank as well. Joe is now my go to guy for all things tanks - bottles - and fill gear for airgunning. If you haven't checked out his shop - go here: http://www.airtanksforsale.com/



MOD EDIT: moved to Air Tanks, Pumps, Compressors section

 

[tibor]

good post ..safety is a concern!

thanks

 

[txaggie929]

I had an Air Hog fill hose explode on me. It was a brand new hose that I had ordered, and I think it was the 2nd time I went to fill my gun (inside a room in my house of course) and all of a sudden "BOOM". Tuns out their machine hadn't crimped the microbore hose correctly and the air quickly bypassed into the protective blue hose covered. My ears rang for at least 2-3 days. All I got from Air Hog was a "sorry that happened, we'll send you a replacement" and that was it. I'll never buy another Air Hog product.

 

[Spray1Mark]

I don't get the ACECARE part, what is the test pressure labelled as? it should be 50MPA (500 bar) which is 7251 PSI, the service or working pressure should be 30MPA (or 300 bar) which is 4351PSI so you are correct that if it is advertised as 4500PSI safe working pressure that is incorrect.

However if someone is saying that another 10 bar (150PSI) could be the difference between life and death I think they are being a little overdramatic, especially as SHENYANG GAS and ACECARE make the carbon bottles for practically everyone else anyways.

10 bar as far as filling and heat goes is probably less than you lose on the thermal cooldown after filling with a lot of the awful compressors on the market, if you really want to talk about diceing with death then buy one of those Maj Hong or whatever they are called compressors from EBay, they explode regularly, I have yet to hear of one of the carbon bottles exploding under normal working conditions.

ACECARE destructive test 2 cylinders from every batch, the only other factor of course could be the lifetime rating in cycles, if you are overfilling the thing 3 times a day for 10 years there might be an issue!

I do however completely agree that buying Chinese hoses from EBay is a little niaive but you wouldn't be the only one.

 

[airgunfans]

I am glad that you are not hurt but buying from this vendor is the way to gaurantee safety is over simplification I am afraid . A few years back, in the yellow forum, there has been a report on a mico bore hose supplied by this vendor busting. The owner sent it back and the vendor confirmed that it was due to poor crimping work. It makes me wonder where that hose was made.

 

[T3PRanch]

Hey UNAG send me those Ace Care Tanks. I'll pay the shipping! Even if they were not safe at 300 Bar (which they are) they still have a lot of uses at lower pressures. DOT Certification is NOT the guarantee that many think it is. DOT Certification is NOT a certification of the tank proper but rather of the facility and methodology that produces the tank. So you see you never have a DOT Certified tank but rather a Tank produced in a DOT Certified Facility. Hydro Testing is the Certification of YOUR TANK! Personally I don't care for certain sales tactics, even if sincere, that unnecessarily frighten people. I prefer education in all aspects of our sport and educated respectful decisions in my purchases.

 

[Centercut]

Damn T3PRanch, you beat me to it. I'll take the tanks and the fill hoses...  

Just a thought, but WHERE and from WHOM does Joe buy his hoses? Are they made in the USA, or in China? Where are his fittings made? Here in the USA? I know most of the tanks sold by the airgun industry (Omega) are made in South Korea, not the USA (if I'm not mistaken). Most of the SCBA tanks that are used in Fire stations across the USA are made in the USA, which is what I use for my airguns, used SCBA tanks that have useful life left. Luxfer, Carleton, SCI, etc...

As far as the Acecare tanks, I'm 99% certain that they use the same machines (Siemens) to make their tanks as the Koreans use and that we use here in the USA. Agree with T3P, the scare tactics seem more sales related than based on fact when it comes to tanks. Let me say this one more time, since I've said it on AGN many times. There have been NO explosive tank decompressions in the USA for the past 20+ years where it was due to poor tank construction or materials, and not physical abuse of the tank. NONE. DOT commissioned a test hundreds of used Firefighters tanks that had 15 years of hard service, and tested them to "as new" conditions. ALL OF THEM PASSED! NONE FAILED.

 

[Spray1Mark]

That is correct CC INOCOM do use the SIEMENS units, I think SHENYANG do as well but not sure about ACECARE.

Top of the tree would be the USA products you mention, but of course they are a much higher cost and they are rated to go through thousands of cycles due to the extremes they are used in, I suspect the average airgunner only fills his bottle a few times a year.

 

[Centercut]

That is correct CC INOCOM do use the SIEMENS units, I think SHENYANG do as well but not sure about ACECARE.

Top of the tree would be the USA products you mention, but of course they are a much higher cost and they are rated to go through thousands of cycles due to the extremes they are used in, I suspect the average airgunner only fills his bottle a few times a year.

Well, except for us nuts that shoot thousands of rounds per month... I fill my three tanks once every two weeks. Luckily I have the Daystate LC-110 compressor.

Yes, ACECARE uses the Siemens equipment...

 

[UpNorthAirGunner]

Hey UNAG send me those Ace Care Tanks. I'll pay the shipping! Even if they were not safe at 300 Bar (which they are) they still have a lot of uses at lower pressures. DOT Certification is NOT the guarantee that many think it is. DOT Certification is NOT a certification of the tank proper but rather of the facility and methodology that produces the tank. So you see you never have a DOT Certified tank but rather a Tank produced in a DOT Certified Facility. Hydro Testing is the Certification of YOUR TANK! Personally I don't care for certain sales tactics, even if sincere, that unnecessarily frighten people. I prefer education in all aspects of our sport and educated respectful decisions in my purchases.

I am really glad you guys are chiming in about this because I have been only in this for 2 years now and trying to decipher fact from fiction and fluffery from sage advice. I will say I do trust Joe and know he is coming from a place of authentic concern. I have had one line blow out like I mentioned in this post and I also had a situation at the SCUBA shop before I got my compressor where an O ring blew out during the fill - but that was on the SCUBA shops fill equipment. That sounded like a gun shot too and sent the entire store of people diving to the floor. 

I also want to share with you that I have had some very well known shooters in the airgunning community troll some of my posts beating me up about the 4500 (310 bar) PSI vs. 300 bar thing on that ACECARE bottle (names won't be mentioned), but I think that flame up was due to the fact that I was testing someone else's modded Texan valve and the commenter was also a machinist / valve guru and I just got caught in some crossfire between two rivals / foes. That little dust up got be temporarily banned from the Facebook AirForce AirGunners group - but I have learned to deal with personalities a bit better in the past year so it is all good now. Thicker skin and just understand some people don't like my style of being authentically excited about airgunning. 

I have also gotten beaten up online about putting fricken STICKERS on my CF tanks and was told by one commenter that my life was in danger because the adhesive on the stickers was somehow going to degrade the exterior structural integrity of my bottle. Don't fire fighters charge into burning buildings with these strapped onto their backs banging the crap out of them day in and day out. Would a DONNYFL sticker really eat away at the exterior shell? Looking for advice here, but overall is a good conversation to have especially if people are using paintball underrated fill fill lines and gear for PCP airguns. 

 

[Centercut]

I have also gotten beaten up online about putting fricken STICKERS on my CF tanks and was told by one commenter that my life was in danger because the adhesive on the stickers was somehow going to degrade the exterior structural integrity of my bottle. Don't fire fighters charge into burning buildings with these strapped onto their backs banging the crap out of them day in and day out. Would a DONNYFL sticker really eat away at the exterior shell? Looking for advice here, but overall is a good conversation to have especially if people are using paintball underrated fill fill lines and gear for PCP airguns.

You enthusiasm is awesome, sorry I didn't get to talk to you at RMAC. As far as stickers, I won't say on here what I really think about those that told you it was dangerous, but I'll just say they probably rode the Short Bus when going to school. 

Firemen put reflective stickers all over their tanks so they can be seen in burning buildings. I've bought used SCBA tanks that were literally covered in various stickers by the fire department that owned the tank prior to me. So put as many as you want on your tank. The only thing, some dive shops may have you remove them for your 5 year hydro inspection so they can fully inspect the tank. I say some, because where I get mine done they never ask me to remove them, and they do all their hydro's in house.

As far as filling tanks to 10 or 15 bar more than the design in use pressure, I wouldn't worry. Lets face it, the 5 year hydro requirement is 7500 psi, and the as new test (for a few out of each lot) is 15,000 psi, pause for one minute, then fill until it fails. Your tank's design burst pressure is in excess of 15,000 psi!!! Let me tell you what we did in the Navy with 4500 psi tanks. We almost always filled to 4700 to 4750 psi, so that after the tank settled and cooled off it was at 4500. If we only filled to 4500, after settling and cooling we were lucky to have 4300 psi. No one will officially tell you that they do this, but its commonplace. I'd be willing to bet that many fire departments do the same thing. What fireman wants to charge into a burning building without a 100% filled SCBA tank that their life depends on?

 

[UpNorthAirGunner]

I have also gotten beaten up online about putting fricken STICKERS on my CF tanks and was told by one commenter that my life was in danger because the adhesive on the stickers was somehow going to degrade the exterior structural integrity of my bottle. Don't fire fighters charge into burning buildings with these strapped onto their backs banging the crap out of them day in and day out. Would a DONNYFL sticker really eat away at the exterior shell? Looking for advice here, but overall is a good conversation to have especially if people are using paintball underrated fill fill lines and gear for PCP airguns.

You enthusiasm is awesome, sorry I didn't get to talk to you at RMAC. As far as stickers, I won't say on here what I really think about those that told you it was dangerous, but I'll just say they probably rode the Short Bus when going to school. 

Firemen put reflective stickers all over their tanks so they can be seen in burning buildings. I've bought used SCBA tanks that were literally covered in various stickers by the fire department that owned the tank prior to me. So put as many as you want on your tank. The only thing, some dive shops may have you remove them for your 5 year hydro inspection so they can fully inspect the tank. I say some, because where I get mine done they never ask me to remove them, and they do all their hydro's in house.

Thanks man! I wish I could have stayed longer. Next year for sure I will be there the entire time competing and I will also be going to Pyramyd Cup too. Just being in a physical space like that to talk airguns was awesome! Ya - I though the sticker thing was over the top. Short bus for sure. HA!

 

[PigeonMan]

I know this joe guy. He always put down Chinese stuff. Like this piece of XXXX and his XXXX the best. I think he just trying sell his $700 tanks vs these Chinese acecare $250 tanks. I bought an acecare 6.8l tank from eBay. Use the same hose and valve and gauge that came with the tank. Always fill to max 4500 psi and refill once get down to 3500 psi. Have been using it for 2 years now and it still kicking. Just cause one hose blow doesn't mean they all are cheap XXXX. You buy a brand new TV. It stop working. Is it the brand of TV that is XXXX? No. You just got a bad one. I still using my acecare tank with same valve and hose and I don't even think twice about it exploding. Since when does a tank explode due to normal use. These ppl who abuse their tanks to above recommend use, that's the cause. Not the so called cheap Chinese crap. Smh even white USA American made stuff are XXXX too. Trust me. I've use some USA made product and they are XXXX.

MOD EDIT: Violation of Law #1 please respect the laws.

 

[boscoebrea]

I know a bit about high pressure air,"It can kill"....now where have I heard that,lol..anyhow working on submarines and life boats have worked with high pressure air for decades,,,talk all you want, you get the best you can afford that is a proven product..if you can not do that save your money till you can.Now isn't that simple? 

Great subject...reminds me of guys that get into reloading,FACT ,that is what you are doing,reloading,so why not take the same care?

 

[UpNorthAirGunner]

I want to make a quick edit to my post, but I still stand by the importance of this topic. I sometimes use the euphemism CHINESE-ium as a cheeky term to describe a product or the materials used in a product of unknown or untested or uncertified origin. No offense to the Chinese. Trust me - we have a few cars on the road around here made from Michigan-dium that are a total mess. Just wanted to clarify to maintain a sense of inclusion here in airgunner land. ONWARD!

 

[tibor]

I know a bit about high pressure air,"It can kill"....now where have I heard that,lol..anyhow working on submarines and life boats have worked with high pressure air for decades,,,talk all you want, you get the best you can afford that is a proven product..if you can not do that save your money till you can.Now isn't that simple? 

Great subject...reminds me of guys that get into reloading,FACT ,that is what you are doing,reloading,so why not take the same care?

thumbs UP..

 

[DesertSilver]

The winding equipment is crucial to a good product but so is the resin system AND the carbon fiber filament used. There are a lot of carbon fiber suppliers out their. Aerospace grade which includes extensive testing and commercial grade which does not. I worked in the aerospace materials business for 35 years and have seen some really crappy fibers. Hercules As4 fiber comes to mind as not a real good fiber. The problem with it is the sizing which allows individual fibers to be stripped away from the fiber bundle. A bundle usually contains around 3K fibers. Look at the background of this web site. Each one the strands you see would contain 3K carbon fiber threads. Now imagine if you will, each eyelet that the bundle had to thread thru stripping off say 10 to 100 individual fibers. I've seen the end result when I had to qualify prepreg made with AS4 fiber to a customers spec.

 

[Papy_Yosh]

What fireman wants to charge into a burning building without a 100% filled SCBA tank that their life depends on?

I would even go with mine at 110% if I could. Think about what a 200 to 300 degree F increase do to your pressure? I have never had a bottle blow on my back while doing things like that.

It is common practice to charge them above the 4500psi to compensate for the pressure loss due to the fill. In SCBA I trust....

 

[Eaglebeak]

I agree 100% with Centercut and TP3Ranch. On the 300 bar versus 4500 psi debate, I believe that they are all made the same. The different terminology used only for the intended country of use. Rather than using the exact conversion of 310.26 bar, They have simplified things by rounding down to 300 bar or MPA. As has already been mentioned the actual precise pressure can vary a couple of hundred psi just with the ambient temperature and a very wide safety margin is factored in when the specifications are written. This is why there is such a large variation in the claimed cubic feet capacity of the seemingly same 45 and 60-minute bottles. Joe may know his hoses but he also knows a lot about horse trading.

 

[BigTinBoat]

JOE KNOWS HOSES and just might have saved my life and yours!

It most likely wasn't the cold that made that hose fail - it was more than likely a hose rated for 1800 PSI! Furthermore I told Joe that I had been using an ACECARE Carbon Fiber bottle which was marketed as 4500 PSI but says 300 bar on the bottle (not 4500 PSI). Doug Noble had warned me about this earlier this year and I took his advice to not fill that bottle over 4250 PSI and stay within the 300 bar specs. But Joe went even further.

Do you wonder about putting 4500psi in one of Joe's tank with a DIN300 fitting (300 bar rating)? Or does he recommend you only put 300bar? Most of the SCBA tanks have a CGA347 fitting (5500psi rating) on the valve, not the DIN300 like Joe's.