N/A Lightened Piston

Hi Folks,
I am considering replacing the piston in my HW97 or TX200 with a lightened factory piston. My goal is to dampen the shot cycle and reduce hold sensitivity while keeping power at about 10-12fpe for target shooting at 50+ yards. I tried a shortstroke spacer and also leaving out the steel tophat but that didnt improve performance. Is a lightweight piston worth trying? I appreciate any help with this.
 
I put one in my HW97 and in my TX200HC. They both have a few hundred shots on them and are fitted with 12fpe Vorteck kits. In both cases the recoil is lighter and the shot cycle is quicker. The 97 feels a bit more violent upon firing than the TX.
The pellet fit etc has a more pronounced effect on the firing behavior now than it did. Both guns were shooting about 12.5fpe before and about 12.25 fpe after with HNFTT. I don't know that it makes the gun any better but I would do it again.
Both pistons were purchased from apex airgun parts/Ratworks UK.
 
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Hi Folks,
I am considering replacing the piston in my HW97 or TX200 with a lightened factory piston. My goal is to dampen the shot cycle and reduce hold sensitivity while keeping power at about 10-12fpe for target shooting at 50+ yards. I tried a shortstroke spacer and also leaving out the steel tophat but that didnt improve performance. Is a lightweight piston worth trying? I appreciate any help with this.
I think Tony Leech is the titanium piston guy, I think you can find him on facebook, but I don't facebook, so just hear say for me.
 
I put one in my HW97 and in my TX200HC. They both have a few hundred shots on them and are fitted with 12fpe Vorteck kits. In both cases the recoil is lighter and the shot cycle is quicker. The 97 feels a bit more violent upon firing than the TX.
The pellet fit etc has a more pronounced effect on the firing behavior now than it did. Both guns were shooting about 12.5fpe before and about 12.25 fpe after with HNFTT. I don't know that it makes the gun any better but I would do it again.
Both pistons were purchased from apex airgun parts/Ratworks UK.
If you don't mind me asking: why would you do it again, therefore spend money, if you don't think it makes the gun better? And, for what i understand, not necessarily true, a lighter piston requires a stronger spring.
 
If you don't mind me asking: why would you do it again, therefore spend money, if you don't think it makes the gun better? And, for what i understand, not necessarily true, a lighter piston requires a stronger spring.
It was an interesting thing to do. I learned a lot and had fun. They both lost power but not much. They may be better, I don't know yet. And as a bonus it didn't cost much and I believe they would be easy to sell used for no loss.
 
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A notably lighter piston can sometimes cause piston bounce when reducing power.

And bounce will make a gun more hold sensitive than absolutely anything else.

Lightened pistons are great, but you need to be ready to do transfer port work and play with different springs to see the most benefit.

Just have to try it and see.

The juice ain't worth the squeeze if you aren't going all in IMO.
 
I put one in my HW97 and in my TX200HC. They both have a few hundred shots on them and are fitted with 12fpe Vorteck kits. In both cases the recoil is lighter and the shot cycle is quicker. The 97 feels a bit more violent upon firing than the TX.
The pellet fit etc has a more pronounced effect on the firing behavior now than it did. Both guns were shooting about 12.5fpe before and about 12.25 fpe after with HNFTT. I don't know that it makes the gun any better but I would do it again.
Both pistons were purchased from apex airgun parts/Ratworks UK.
Checked out the pistons from Apex. With the 3 slots (believe are 3, hard to tell from the picture) the piston must be much lighter. Did you consider using longer/stronger spring, or shim up the one you have?
 
Checked out the pistons from Apex. With the 3 slots (believe are 3, hard to tell from the picture) the piston must be much lighter. Did you consider using longer/stronger spring, or shim up the one you have?
I only lost 1/4fpe and it is still over 12fpe so, no I didn't consider another spring. My goal is a smoother firing cycle not more power.
 
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I'm spit balling here on this one as I've never actually tried it. With some experience building racing engines, I've long considered reducing pistion weight to increase power and reduce recoil. Here's my thoughts on lightening which are only theoretical. I'll start with what I have done with piston weight and work it backwards.

Its been common practice to make piston weight heavier with steel top hats to reduce piston bounce. This I have proven to be somewhat true, the results vary wildly because less bounce is more efficient and can produce more energy. Accelerating more weight saps power. Often its wash because the sapped power equals any gains from reducing bounce. Typically adding weight increases efficiency more notably with heavier or tighter fitting pellets that are more prone to piston bounce. Adding steel washers above the top hat is one way of tuning weight. The extra preload the washer creates can offset the weight penalty. I've had very mixed results with this. It varies greatly depending on spring and gun design. I've gotten away from this as a practice.

The subject of the OP was lightening. Reducing piston weight and spring weight does reduce recoil. Look at the running 25mm pistons in HW77 and 97s. That's a quick way to make a nicer shooting 77/97. Obviously 25mm Hw30s are easy to shoot while 30 mm R1's are notoriously difficult to shoot. That's an extreme example and piston speed has a lot to do with it but you get the idea. So there's something to reducing weight that reduces inertia and thus recoil. Felt recoil isn't just the movement of weight in one direction. Often pellets that produce more bounce and are less efficient feel less smooth than pellets that produce less bounce. Therefore it's possible that a lighter piston with more bounce may lose some of it's smoothness. I believe one way to reduce bounce is to run more preload. Not necessarily a stronger spring but a lighter longer spring. The compressed pressure will be the same but the extended pressure will be greater and more bounce resistant. Perhaps a lighter piston with a lighter spring with more preload? A lighter power spring also reduces physical weight that may also reduce recoil. There's so many variables the combinations of pistons and springs becomes endless. Then throw in transfer ports which throttle back pressure you can go crazy. Personally I think being more prone to bouncing, lightening will make the gun more pellet picky. Not necessarily a desirable trait.

With my varired experience playing with adding weights I've binned the idea of reducing piston spring assembly weight. I'm also not a competitive shooter. There are tuners in the UK that this is their thing and they got it all figured out. At a hobbiest level it's a crapshoot at best. I'm not saying it's not worth trying. I'm saying is all the variables make theories fun to discuss but you won't know until you do it. If you're serious about this I'd recommend contacting someone like Tony Leech that has a lot of experience with this and purchase a matched set of parts. It'll be expensive initially but the time and money it'll save will likely be worth it in the long run.
 
I'm spit balling here on this one as I've never actually tried it. With some experience building racing engines, I've long considered reducing pistion weight to increase power and reduce recoil. Here's my thoughts on lightening which are only theoretical. I'll start with what I have done with piston weight and work it backwards.

Its been common practice to make piston weight heavier with steel top hats to reduce piston bounce. This I have proven to be somewhat true, the results vary wildly because less bounce is more efficient and can produce more energy. Accelerating more weight saps power. Often its wash because the sapped power equals any gains from reducing bounce. Typically adding weight increases efficiency more notably with heavier or tighter fitting pellets that are more prone to piston bounce. Adding steel washers above the top hat is one way of tuning weight. The extra preload the washer creates can offset the weight penalty. I've had very mixed results with this. It varies greatly depending on spring and gun design. I've gotten away from this as a practice.

The subject of the OP was lightening. Reducing piston weight and spring weight does reduce recoil. Look at the running 25mm pistons in HW77 and 97s. That's a quick way to make a nicer shooting 77/97. Obviously 25mm Hw30s are easy to shoot while 30 mm R1's are notoriously difficult to shoot. That's an extreme example and piston speed has a lot to do with it but you get the idea. So there's something to reducing weight that reduces inertia and thus recoil. Felt recoil isn't just the movement of weight in one direction. Often pellets that produce more bounce and are less efficient feel less smooth than pellets that produce less bounce. Therefore it's possible that a lighter piston with more bounce may lose some of it's smoothness. I believe one way to reduce bounce is to run more preload. Not necessarily a stronger spring but a lighter longer spring. The compressed pressure will be the same but the extended pressure will be greater and more bounce resistant. Perhaps a lighter piston with a lighter spring with more preload? A lighter power spring also reduces physical weight that may also reduce recoil. There's so many variables the combinations of pistons and springs becomes endless. Then throw in transfer ports which throttle back pressure you can go crazy. Personally I think being more prone to bouncing, lightening will make the gun more pellet picky. Not necessarily a desirable trait.

With my varired experience playing with adding weights I've binned the idea of reducing piston spring assembly weight. I'm also not a competitive shooter. There are tuners in the UK that this is their thing and they got it all figured out. At a hobbiest level it's a crapshoot at best. I'm not saying it's not worth trying. I'm saying is all the variables make theories fun to discuss but you won't know until you do it. If you're serious about this I'd recommend contacting someone like Tony Leech that has a lot of experience with this and purchase a matched set of parts. It'll be expensive initially but the time and money it'll save will likely be worth it in the long run.
Those are the reasons that I bought a lightened piston from a well established Airgun tuning business. It was done to function with existing parts. In my case both the 97 and Tx200 will shoot lighter pellets well. I would rather shoot my 12fpe HW80 all day any day more than my 30s. There are so many factors involved in how a spring gun shoots, that it is easy to over analyze it. I much prefer to try for my self in small increments and experience what happens instead of reading about it on a forum . FYI the fit of your piston seal can have a very large impact on firing behavior and I dont hear people worrying about that one much.
 
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Those are the reasons that I bought a lightened piston from a well established Airgun tuning business. It was done to function with existing parts. In my case both the 97 and Tx200 will shoot lighter pellets well. I would rather shoot my 12fpe HW80 all day any day more than my 30s. There are so many factors involved in how a spring gun shoots, that it is easy to over analyze it. I much prefer to try for my self in small increments and experience what happens instead of reading about it on a forum . FYI the fit of your piston seal can have a very large impact on firing behavior and I dont hear people worrying about that one much.
Did you replace the piston seal with Eco or Red when changed the piston?
 
Did you replace the piston seal with Eco or Red when changed the piston?
I had already changed them prior to the piston change. Vortek on tx200 Red Aussie on 97. The red one is sized so as to be too small on a full power kit but very nice on a light setup. I didn't size the seals at all they are as they came
 
I had already changed them prior to the piston change. Vortek on tx200 Red Aussie on 97. The red one is sized so as to be too small on a full power kit but very nice on a light setup. I didn't size the seals at all they are as they came
On the 97 have the Vortek kit or just the Red seal? Have already ordered the Vortek kit with the Eco seal, but was tthinking of getting the Red Aussie. Do they size the seal for your needs? Am asking lots of questions here, don't I :)
 
On the 97 have the Vortek kit or just the Red seal? Have already ordered the Vortek kit with the Eco seal, but was tthinking of getting the Red Aussie. Do they size the seal for your needs? Am asking lots of questions here, don't I :)
97 has Vortek sub 12 kit and red aussie seal. I have a vortek seal for it that is just a little oversize and didn't feel right with the light piston but worked well with a stock piston. The seals won't come sized for you,but in most cases fit well and will size by shooting. Vortek seals are usually my first choice I just happened to have a red and was curious. PM sent
 
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Those are the reasons that I bought a lightened piston from a well established Airgun tuning business. It was done to function with existing parts. In my case both the 97 and Tx200 will shoot lighter pellets well. I would rather shoot my 12fpe HW80 all day any day more than my 30s. There are so many factors involved in how a spring gun shoots, that it is easy to over analyze it. I much prefer to try for my self in small increments and experience what happens instead of reading about it on a forum . FYI the fit of your piston seal can have a very large impact on firing behavior and I dont hear people worrying about that one much.
Out of curiosity what did you do to bring the Hw80 down to 12 fpe that it shoots so well.
 
Out of curiosity what did you do to bring the Hw80 down to 12 fpe that it shoots so well.
It's more a case of shoots not so bad than shoots so well. I made the gun heavier with a laminate stock and hw98 barrel and use the ARH low power kit for hw80 and a slightly tight Vortek piston seal. I don't like the firing behavior of my .177 30 very much
 
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