Looking around for a new high end scope.

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Sanctify7 said:
Okay. So you did have input. That's cool.
Your comments on the Helos vs. the M TAC are right to the point and helpful. I appreciate the help. I am now going to scrutinize the particulars of these two scopes. For the record, illumination is nice to have, but I didn't really know about it even a short while ago. I have never shot a scope with it, though my "hanging around" Sidewinder has it, and I checked it out unmounted. Thanks. S7
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Edit:
Steve, I meant to say: “I am now going to scrutinize . . . “ and not “not going to scrutinize.” I Just changed this because it sends my intentions in the opposite direction. I meant to say that I was going to evaluate and compare the differences, which is what I am doing right now. S7
 
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steve123 said:
That's the March I got recently, the Genesis 4-40. I like it a lot and the glass is great! IT IS HEAVY though, partly because of the mount it uses. On the bench or prone off the bipod it works well and the extra weight helps keep the rifle movement down. Fantastic optic for what its meant for. Glad I spent the $$$$.

The thing I also discovered, is using it for BR on paper, with FML reticles being on the busy side and thicker as well, is the FML somewhat blocks the visibility of the holes in the paper. Often I had to move to the top half of the FOV to get a clear view. If I ever want a dedicated BR set up I'll buy a scope with a thin and simple reticle.
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Steve, that Genesis line is heavy, but very nice, I am sure.
As I have made clear in the thread, I am all about light scopes. In fact, this criterion largely governs my selection choice. But after yesterday, I am wondering if the ‘ultra-light’ or very light scope is actually what I need. I took my first shot at a squirrel yesterday with my Crown MK II, which wears the light synthetic stock, and the Helix 4-16x44 was on it (almost 24 oz.) I was resting the rig on my window sill, but found that I was having trouble steadying the gun. I missed the squirrel, and the distance was right about my zero range of 25 yards.

There may be other reasons why the gun felt unstable on the sill, and I am now thinking. Previously, I had only done some shooting from a table with sand bags with this rig. The gun felt light but things worked out then. Perhaps a scope in the 30 ounce range would be better? I almost never shoot at pests offhand.

I also was confused when I mounted the Helix and ended up putting it just under (?) an inch forward of where I really wanted it due to the high magazine on the Crown. I think my first mounting, which I undid, was fine, but I didn’t know that because at that time I did not realize the Crown magazine sits rather loosely and was probably inserted deeply enough in the slot but unaware of that I slid it in further than it had to go. I kept pushing the mag, waiting for a positive ‘click,’ which never happened. The mag was rising in its slot as I pushed it further in and then the top of the mag hit the bottom of the the scope. It’s then that I thought I must undo this and realign things. I now realize I got the false reading that the the protruding part of the scope was in the way and the mag wouldn’t seat, but it probably was not the case. All this to say that my scope may not be properly positioned, thus creating a slight imbalance which affects how the gun sits in my hands. When I remounted the scope, I felt it the gun was too forward heavy. But I have so very little experience, and I only used a Marauder prior to all of this, that I really don’t know. I hope this makes sense. There is so very much I need to learn. Thanks. S7
 
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S7 did you confirm your zero recently before you shot at the squirrel? I mention this because airguns tend to have poi shifts. MANY times and on many airguns my zero had moved between shooting sessions. Sometimes a small amount sometimes a lot.
Also it could be the pellet got deformed as it fed since the mag wasn't seated properly.

I recommend getting this bag in standard fill. These tactical bags make a HUGE difference steadying the rifle on something like a window sill. https://wiebad.com/mini-drc-fortune-cookie/

Scopes - its all which compromises you want to make. I prefer to strike a balance and also prefer versatility unless the scope is meant for a "specific task" like what I mentioned about BR earlier today.

A few weeks ago I shot a night time XFT match. The targets weren't lighted up well whereas in the past they were so the kill zones/KZ were hard to see on some of them. I had my Helos G2 6-24 on the rifle and turned the illume on which made enough of a difference so I didn't struggle to see the contrast between the KZ's and the reticle. Here I was glad I had a very versatile scope. I'd probably missed a few more shots had I the MT on the rifle. The more I use this Helos G2 the more I like it.
Would I like to walk around all day hunting with it, probably not.
 
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steve123 said:
S7 did you confirm your zero recently before you shot at the squirrel? I mention this because airguns tend to have poi shifts. MANY times and on many airguns my zero had moved between shooting sessions. Sometimes a small amount sometimes a lot.
Also it could be the pellet got deformed as it fed since the mag wasn't seated properly.

I recommend getting this bag in standard fill. These tactical bags make a HUGE difference steadying the rifle on something like a window sill. https://wiebad.com/mini-drc-fortune-cookie/

Scopes - its all which compromises you want to make. I prefer to strike a balance and also prefer versatility unless the scope is meant for a "specific task" like what I mentioned about BR earlier today.

A few weeks ago I shot a night time XFT match. The targets weren't lighted up well whereas in the past they were so the kill zones/KZ were hard to see on some of them. I had my Helos G2 6-24 on the rifle and turned the illume on which made enough of a difference so I didn't struggle to see the contrast between the KZ's and the reticle. Here I was glad I had a very versatile scope. I'd probably missed a few more shots had I the MT on the rifle. The more I use this Helos G2 the more I like it.
Would I like to walk around all day hunting with it, probably not.
Click to expand...
Got it, Steve.
I guess I am after an ultra-light scope, but my applications of seated target shooting and pesting from my window using the sill as a rest really don't call for one. I like the 'light in the hand' feeling, but I don't shoot offhand! Neither do I presently stalk--I snipe.
I hadn't thought of putting a bag when I take my pesting shots. I only use a rag, but the sill is not a flat piece of wood but rather it gives me a thin plastic piece, a little more than the thickness of a ruler (about 3/32 of an inch) sitting on its edge. Well that's that from now on.
No, I had not rechecked the zero and will do so asap.
Thanks. S7
 
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rangur1 said:
Delta scopes
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I’m late to this thread, but have to agree with rangur1 on the Delta.
A little back story on this, and a big kudos to rangur1.-
I was geared for my first ever RMAC last June with both my mk2’s set up with the new Athlon Argos 10-40 x 56 gen2 benchrest scopes. Long story very short, I had to return them to Athlon one at a time as I saw major inconsistencies with my groups. After I sent one back to Athlon for review, I get a package from Marc(rangur1) that was supposed to be some pellets he offered me. Turns out it was a big “I got you” and instead, I opened up a box containing his delta Stryker in 5-50 x 56, in MOA. His words- “ you’re entering a major event! You need quality equipment! Just return it whenever you’re done with it, no rush”.

How COOL IS THAT?!!

I fell in love with that scope, it had everything I ever wanted in a scope with the zoom power to see 22 cal holes easily out and past 100 yards.
Meanwhile Athlon sent me a new replacement, then I sent the second one in and also got a new replacement, and according to Athlon, both failed their recoil test. The ones that came in were a Gen2 of a Gen2 models, as the parallax knobs were larger, focused down to 10 yards, and the extra backlash was gone. I would’ve been very content with those Athlons, as the reticle was perfect and glass was good, but too late, as Marc had tainted my desires for a Stryker.

Fast forward to today, both my impacts have the delta strykers in the 5-50 x 56 MOA models. Identical not only in scope, but in mounts and placement on the gun so I could do a gun switch and always be in synch with cheek weld, sight picture, and scope familiarity.

So again, a big thanks to rangur1 Marc! Love those Strykers! They are a beefy scope, for sure. I could turn them into nun chucks!
 
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Bigragu said:
I’m late to this thread, but have to agree with rangur1 on the Delta.
A little back story on this, and a big kudos to rangur1.-
I was geared for my first ever RMAC last June with both my mk2’s set up with the new Athlon Argos 10-40 x 56 gen2 benchrest scopes. Long story very short, I had to return them to Athlon one at a time as I saw major inconsistencies with my groups. After I sent one back to Athlon for review, I get a package from Marc(rangur1) that was supposed to be some pellets he offered me. Turns out it was a big “I got you” and instead, I opened up a box containing his delta Stryker in 5-50 x 56, in MOA. His words- “ you’re entering a major event! You need quality equipment! Just return it whenever you’re done with it, no rush”.

How COOL IS THAT?!!

I fell in love with that scope, it had everything I ever wanted in a scope with the zoom power to see 22 cal holes easily out and past 100 yards.
Meanwhile Athlon sent me a new replacement, then I sent the second one in and also got a new replacement, and according to Athlon, both failed their recoil test. The ones that came in were a Gen2 of a Gen2 models, as the parallax knobs were larger, focused down to 10 yards, and the extra backlash was gone. I would’ve been very content with those Athlons, as the reticle was perfect and glass was good, but too late, as Marc had tainted my desires for a Stryker.

Fast forward to today, both my impacts have the delta strykers in the 5-50 x 56 MOA models. Identical not only in scope, but in mounts and placement on the gun so I could do a gun switch and always be in synch with cheek weld, sight picture, and scope familiarity.

So again, a big thanks to rangur1 Marc! Love those Strykers! They are a beefy scope, for sure. I could turn them into nun chucks!
Click to expand...

That sucks those Argos 10-40's had something wrong with them. It seems to me that particular scope needs a clean sheet of paper redesign??? I personally never bought one of those because I knew from experience cheaper scopes don't pull off higher magnification well.

That $1600 Delta 5-50 has had problems too BTW. I know Stoti had to send his in for warranty and they replaced it. Also Jeff that won EBR 100Y complained that he couldn't focus his 5-50 scope perfectly. He started a thread about it and I mentioned Stoti's problem to him. I don't remember the outcome.
But I, like you, wouldn't be satisfied looking through a $460 scope vs a $1600.

I had to send my $3600 S&B 3-20x50 twice because the elevation turret failed.
 
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Bigragu said:
I’m late to this thread, but have to agree with rangur1 on the Delta.
A little back story on this, and a big kudos to rangur1.-
I was geared for my first ever RMAC last June with both my mk2’s set up with the new Athlon Argos 10-40 x 56 gen2 benchrest scopes. Long story very short, I had to return them to Athlon one at a time as I saw major inconsistencies with my groups. After I sent one back to Athlon for review, I get a package from Marc(rangur1) that was supposed to be some pellets he offered me. Turns out it was a big “I got you” and instead, I opened up a box containing his delta Stryker in 5-50 x 56, in MOA. His words- “ you’re entering a major event! You need quality equipment! Just return it whenever you’re done with it, no rush”.

How COOL IS THAT?!!

I fell in love with that scope, it had everything I ever wanted in a scope with the zoom power to see 22 cal holes easily out and past 100 yards.
Meanwhile Athlon sent me a new replacement, then I sent the second one in and also got a new replacement, and according to Athlon, both failed their recoil test. The ones that came in were a Gen2 of a Gen2 models, as the parallax knobs were larger, focused down to 10 yards, and the extra backlash was gone. I would’ve been very content with those Athlons, as the reticle was perfect and glass was good, but too late, as Marc had tainted my desires for a Stryker.

Fast forward to today, both my impacts have the delta strykers in the 5-50 x 56 MOA models. Identical not only in scope, but in mounts and placement on the gun so I could do a gun switch and always be in synch with cheek weld, sight picture, and scope familiarity.

So again, a big thanks to rangur1 Marc! Love those Strykers! They are a beefy scope, for sure. I could turn them into nun chucks!
Click to expand...
Bigragu,
That was a fine gesture by rangur1 indeed. I have heard of the Strykers. Perhaps I will check them out again. S7
 
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This has been a longer discussion, and I might have missed the fact that you already have looked at Nightforce scopes.

But maybe you haven't....

They are so far above my price range that I haven't really looked at them, but you're looking at March, so I though you might as well look at April.... Nightforce makes top tier scopes.


Few have 10y min. parallax.
But their premium line has these two with 10y parallax, each of them with a huge magnification range, for a wide range of shooting scenarios:

● Nightforce NX8: 4-32x50 F1
www.nightforceoptics.com

NX8 - 4-32x50mm F1 - Nightforce Optics

A vast magnification range, with superb clarity and resolution at every step, means that one riflescope will give you a world of versatility and confidence in any situation.
www.nightforceoptics.com www.nightforceoptics.com

● Nightforce NX8: 2.5-20x50 F1
www.nightforceoptics.com

NX8 – 2.5-20x50mm F1 - Nightforce Optics

Our new NX8 2.5-20x50 F1 gives you one riflescope that will rule virtually any shooting environment, anywhere on Earth, at almost any distance.
www.nightforceoptics.com www.nightforceoptics.com


Matthias
 
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Something else to think off, S7:

You were looking at March scopes. And some of them I remember were short....
And short scopes have their very own problems:

Cf. the following two links, the first by what many on the Snipers Hide would recognize as an "optics authority":
He's the most exciting teacher to listen to, but he seems to know his stuff. To save you 18 minutes....:
Summary:
(1) Short scopes require bending the light more. Which requires more lenses and more extreme lenses. Which introduces more geometrical and optical errors.
(2) For the same reason as in (1), shorter scopes could actually be heavier (more lenses).
(3) Shorter scopes have a shorter SPR (sharpness and parallax range, or DoF [depth of field]).
(4) At 12:06min and 16:07 he mentions March scopes (not sure if he addresses the ones you've been looking at.


Complications with short rifle scopes

I found this video while looking up some info. Some interesting details on design compromises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZd1QINo8CY&feature=emb_logo
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com



Sorry, not trying to muddle the water any further — but before you spend a mountain of money it seems like you want to think about the mountain of factors that influence scope choice.
So, here's something for that mountain.... 😉

Matthias
 
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JungleShooter said:
Something else to think off, S7:

You're looking for light scopes.
Those are often short scopes.
And short scopes have their very own problems:

Cf. the following two links, the first by what many on the Snipers Hide would recognize as an "optics authority":

Complications with short rifle scopes

I found this video while looking up some info. Some interesting details on design compromises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZd1QINo8CY&feature=emb_logo
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com



Sorry, not trying to muddle the water any further — but before you spend a mountain of money it seems like you want to think about the mountain of factors that influence scope choice.
So, here's something for that mountain.... 😉

Matthias
Click to expand...
Hi, JS.
I am glad you rang. Tonight I found a March 1-10x24 for $1467. It’s a steal deal. I also found a Midas TAC 6-24x50 for $455. Heellllpppp!! S7
 
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Sanctify7 said:
Hi, JS.
I am glad you rang. Tonight I found a March 1-10x24 for $1467. It’s a steal deal. I also found a Midas TAC 6-24x50 for $455. Heellllpppp!! S7
Click to expand...
If you found a March 1-10 at that price, it may not be the dual focal plane scope that you (may) be interested in. March F is that line of scope. Look closely at the March description and features; one 1-10 is not the same as the other 1-10. Don't get me wrong, that looks like a great deal either way.
 
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Airgun-hobbyist said:
If you found a March 1-10 at that price, it may not be the dual focal plane scope that you (may) be interested in. March F is that line of scope. Look closely at the March description and features; one 1-10 is not the same as the other 1-10. Don't get me wrong, that looks like a great deal either way.
Click to expand...
Understood, A-h. I knew it was not the dual reticle. But thanks for keeping any eye out for this. S7
 
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JungleShooter said:
Something else to think off, S7:

You were looking at March scopes. And some of them I remember were short....
And short scopes have their very own problems:

Cf. the following two links, the first by what many on the Snipers Hide would recognize as an "optics authority":
He's the most exciting teacher to listen to, but he seems to know his stuff. To save you 18 minutes....:
Summary:
(1) Short scopes require bending the light more. Which requires more lenses and more extreme lenses. Which introduces more geometrical and optical errors.
(2) For the same reason as in (1), shorter scopes could actually be heavier (more lenses).
(3) Shorter scopes have a shorter SPR (sharpness and parallax range, or DoF [depth of field]).
(4) At 12:06min and 16:07 he mentions March scopes (not sure if he addresses the ones you've been looking at.


Complications with short rifle scopes

I found this video while looking up some info. Some interesting details on design compromises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZd1QINo8CY&feature=emb_logo
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com



Sorry, not trying to muddle the water any further — but before you spend a mountain of money it seems like you want to think about the mountain of factors that influence scope choice.
So, here's something for that mountain.... 😉

Matthias
Click to expand...
Thanks, JS.
I watched the video. It seems to me that the speaker concluded that March solved the complexities of making a short-bodied scope work. Yes? S7
 
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steve123 said:
S7 did you confirm your zero recently before you shot at the squirrel? I mention this because airguns tend to have poi shifts. MANY times and on many airguns my zero had moved between shooting sessions. Sometimes a small amount sometimes a lot.
Also it could be the pellet got deformed as it fed since the mag wasn't seated properly.

I recommend getting this bag in standard fill. These tactical bags make a HUGE difference steadying the rifle on something like a window sill. https://wiebad.com/mini-drc-fortune-cookie/

Scopes - its all which compromises you want to make. I prefer to strike a balance and also prefer versatility unless the scope is meant for a "specific task" like what I mentioned about BR earlier today.

A few weeks ago I shot a night time XFT match. The targets weren't lighted up well whereas in the past they were so the kill zones/KZ were hard to see on some of them. I had my Helos G2 6-24 on the rifle and turned the illume on which made enough of a difference so I didn't struggle to see the contrast between the KZ's and the reticle. Here I was glad I had a very versatile scope. I'd probably missed a few more shots had I the MT on the rifle. The more I use this Helos G2 the more I like it.
Would I like to walk around all day hunting with it, probably not.
Click to expand...
Steve,
I just got around to checking out the site featuring bags for windows, etc. It looks like a solution. Thanks. S7
 
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Greetings, folks.

Well, it has been a while, and many videos, postings, and looking at scopes later, but here is where I am at:

One, I want to thank all of you, who have contributed to my knowledge of scopes (e.g., Jungle Shooter, Steve 123, etc., etc.), and to those who have given great quick pointers (e.g., delooper --> March scopes!)

Two, I have heard so many opinions from YouTube, online reading, and members on glass quality that I realized the only way for my eyes to 'see' what is what was to do my own peering! There's nothing brilliant being said here.

Three, here is a highly abbreviated, incomplete, and rough but hopefully acceptable digest of opinion from members and many others: (1) all good scopes under $1,500 or whatever are just about alike in IQ; (2) glass quality for many scopes is only noticeable by either expert types or in low light; (3) you can tell the difference in the Athlon lineup from the Argos to the Cronus (my wording), or not!; (4) Arken is great (mostly, so Douger et al.); Arken is good; Arken is good for the price; Arken is so-so, and so on; (5) to notice a glass difference in normal lighting you need to go really high end (which I now know what that really means: Tangent Theta; ZCO; S&B, March, etc.); (6) this particular scope is great, no it is not; this scope is as good as that one; no it is not, etc. I did leave all of this a bit dazzled and confused. Again, I am concerned with glass right now, not turrets, etc.

Four, I really wanted a March scope due to their quality and unusually light-for-magnification weights, but one at a truly great price. I found three in the last several weeks: a 1-10x24, a 5-40x50, and a Genesis. Largely due to several members (some in one-on-one conversations) realizing that neither of these scopes were great for my context, or that I may want to start my 'upgrading' by spending less money and experimenting and working up, or to this effect (e.g., Steve 123, mmahoney), I reluctantly passed. From here, the March 2.5-25x42, the 2.5-25x52, or perhaps the 3-24x50 are right for me. I could not find one on a striking sale just yet.

Five, I just purchased an Ares ETR 3-18x50, despite it being 31.4 ounces, well above my preferred weight, and despite a much lesser concern, it being a FFP. You need great or very good eyes for most (all?) FFP reticles at very low magnification. I almost bought the Midas-TAC 4-24x50 instead, but again, my context, which really requires a scope with a good FoV and decent magnification (50 yards and under), and member input (as in Jungle Shooter!) swayed me. (Jungle Shooter should start charging all of us a fee for his services. Thank you!) I will post what the Ares seems to be to my very inexperienced eye when I can. It will be comared to what I have: a Helix 4-16x44, a Hawke Vantage 3-12x44, and a Hawke Sidewinder 6.5-20x44. And I will see how this 'heavy' scope feels; I wanted a March weighing around 23 ounces.

Six, I still would like a March one day, God willing.

Take care for now, and thanks very much to all of you once more. S7
 
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steve123 said:
S7 you chose well! That ETR 3-18 is a fine Christmas present! It will compare nicely in many ways to the $2000-ish scopes of other Co's. In this price range it's what I'd choose if I needed a "do all" riflescope.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Steve.

Coming from you, that makes me feel good, especially after considering so very many options. I am looking forward to this ED glass and finding out what is what. :)
S7
 
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