M3 Delete the Reg!

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So what if it takes 10 seconds to fill plenum .
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I know you are kidding but I didn’t find first reg really hampered the second reg recover as long as it’s not like 20 bars above the fist. If you set the first reg to about 50 bars above it really don’t see any difference between dual and single reg. It’s all about pressure delta and even with “rapid” firing with only 40 bar delta from first to second reg I didn’t see any recovery issues. When I had my maverick in factory tune with only 30bar delta I noticed slow recovery from the gauge but the chrono didn’t show speed divination so it also could be gauge recovery speed. 


if you really worried about “rapid” fire recovery then just turn the adjustment screw all the way counter clock wise. Think about it, first reg has the same passage size as second and second one is restricted. If the first one isn’t restricted and second one is how is the second one every going to out run the first one? 


it’s your money and you are more than welcome to stimulate the economy but the delete kit is plain marketing and waste of money. 
 
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If you really worried about “rapid” fire recovery then just turn the adjustment screw all the way counter clock wise. Think about it, first reg has the same passage size as second and second one is restricted. If the first one isn’t restricted and second one is how is the second one every going to out run the first one?

it’s your money and you are more than welcome to stimulate the economy but the delete kit is plain marketing and waste of money.
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@qball It's not as simple as that.
Your "think about it" that if the 2 regs have the same "passage size" they will fill at the same rate doesn't work. To get a bigger picture dive into the conservation of mass in an open system, ideal gas flow and a combination of Boyle's, Charles and Gay-Lussac's laws.

When applied to the 4 portions of the Impact, you'll see that the restriction created by the first reg effects the fill rate of the second plenum behind the second reg. 
The 4 stages being: 1 bottle, 2 first plenum behind first reg, 3 second plenum behind second reg, 4 barrel.

The key point is, when the first plenum behind the first reg starts to drop in pressure, it lowers the max fill rate of the second reg.
If the first reg could be opened up to where the bottle pressure and pressure behind the second reg are the same no matter how much air the second reg is trying to get, then you are correct, BUT, that's not the case.

When talking about fill rates:
Bottle bar > first plenum bar > second plenum bar IS NOT THE SAME AS Bottle bar = first plenum bar > second plenum bar

The delete the reg creates fill rates of: Bottle bar = first plenum bar > second plenum bar
Opening the first reg creates fill rates of: Bottle bar > first plenum bar > second plenum bar






 
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Delete'm both! 💪😎
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LOL!



@HugeSpleen: this is why I ask the reg pressure delta. Plus this is NOT a L2 so how fast can you shoot? I've rapid fired my Maverick just to test this and found no speed difference with chorno with 5 shots as fast as I can with just 40 bar reg difference. These are NOT rapid fire machines so I'm not sure what's all the fuss about, I guess if your money is burning a hole in your pocket then who am I to stop you. 
 
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@HugeSpleen: this is why I ask the reg pressure delta. Plus this is NOT a L2 so how fast can you shoot? I've rapid fired my Maverick just to test this and found no speed difference with chorno with 5 shots as fast as I can with just 40 bar reg difference. These are NOT rapid fire machines so I'm not sure what's all the fuss about, I guess if your money is burning a hole in your pocket then who am I to stop you.
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@qball Not sure where to start, but you should start with some entry level physics. Your fundamental understanding of pressures and gases is wrong when it comes to how regulators fill and shut.

The reason the Maverick functions differently is you have a larger first plenum leading into the second reg compared to the Impact. I have a previous reply where I mentioned an extended plenum behind the first reg. With that, it would give an M3 many of the same characteristics a Maverick has.

There are many things at play. For HIGH power tunes and speed shooting, removing the first reg puts more back pressure behind the second reg at a larger bottle bar range which is beneficial to keeping FPS consistent and keeps the second plenum filling faster for speed.

There isn't really an argument against the utility of this part for some uses... If you think otherwise, show us the math, not your thought experiments.

Do you even have a M3?

@mtnGhost That would be an interesting test for fun. Unregulated Impact...

 
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Hey man, it’s your money and spend how you wish. Math this and that you claim but the difference in Plenum size is rather small between the 2 guns. Have you measured real difference in performance between just opening up the first reg and delete? How about real data beside your thought experiments as you put it? I’d love to see it so I can learn some basic physics. I don’t mind being wrong but please provide data instead hypothesizing your math/physics superiority. 


I don’t have a M3 because I didn’t want one, sold my maverick due to the same reason. 




Edit: since your math is so good then please humor dimwits like me on the exact mathematical effect 17cc in plenum size delta would make? What’s the port throughput volume delta based on plenum size and pressure delta? Love to see all the validation to all your amazing math skills. 
 
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@qball
Only a difference of 17cc? 
P1V1 / T1 = P2V2 / T2
P=pressure in bar
V=volume in cc
T=temperature c

Regarding Maverick vs Impact first plenums: Have temp at 20c. Say you have a first reg/plenum pressure of 170bar with 17cc more space and a second reg pressure of 105bar. That's 27.52cc, which comes out to ~10cc more air at 105bar; which is significant when the system is flowing. ((170bar*17cc/20c)20c)/105bar=27.52cc
Now put on the reg delete on with a full 250bar 580cc bottle (which turns your first plenum into the bottle) and now the power plenum has 1380.95cc worth of UNRESTRICTED supply.

I don't have numbers on how large the opening is on the first reg, but I can tell you it's a lot smaller than ~3mm or whatever it is on the reg delete.
So you honestly want me to prove to you that an unrestricted 580cc bottle at 250bar up against your second reg fills faster than the plenum behind the first reg (which is small), on an impact with restricted flow from a 580cc bottle?

A regulator's fill rate at different back pressures are not the same because the molar volume of a gas is different at different pressures. So even 2 regulators with the same cross section have different fill rates depending on the pressure behind them. 

The bottom line is you are spreading false information and insinuating things contrary to basic physics. Furthermore, you're telling people that the reg delete is a waste of money when you don't even have an Impact and on top of that, can't afford to keep your Maverick. Some people want their slug or speed M3's to perform at their peak ability, so explain to me again why a $40 part is burning a hole in such a person's wallet? Why are you even in a discussion about M3's when you don't even have one? Apparently you don't even want one. What use to us is your commentary?


 
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I do not know how low on pressure the M3 can be adjusted on the seccond reg. But I have read some has lowered it to 70 bar. If one think the gun can use a 300 bar bottle, a seccond reg probably does not hurt. It may not be as benefitial, if one has the seccond reg set from 100 bar and up.
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@tor47 For sure if you are trying to get down to 60bar from 300ber you'd want a first reg. The second reg cannot handle 300bar. But I don't think that's what @M0ist0ne or anyone else would use the reg delete for. 
A sub 12ftlbs setup requires different things than a 60plus ftlbs impact.

Just like you wouldn't use a .22 barrel to shoot .30cal pellets, you might find yourself using different reg combinations hammer springs and tensions for different setups that produce different results.


 
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So that’s some great thought exercise there. just how many shots of “rapid” fire does it take to make a difference aka see speed difference. Some validation and test data will be nice. I see your math and that’s pretty good but uninformed me like to see real world validation and real effect of said math. I may not be as good at math as you but one thing I do is validate, validate and more validate. 


why do I comment? Because I might buy one one day? Because I feel like it? I said multiple times it’s your money and burn it how you like. If 17cc of plenum would make a real difference then it’s clear you should consider buying a maverick.



you are pretty descent at math but certain isn’t very good at interacting with other people. No one has been condescending towards you and yet you bust out your math superiority without validation and talk down to people with real data. regardless, have fun hypothesizing with your M3 while I enjoy my mk2 with no delete at the range. 




 
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@qball
You were the one making thought experiments in the beginning, some basic physics calling you out is not theoretical or a thought experiment.
I quote you: "Think about it, first reg has the same passage size as second and second one is restricted. If the first one isn’t restricted and second one is how is the second one every going to out run the first one?"

If you want to buy one some day, that's cool. Try asking questions or listening to people who have one instead. Or if you are wrong, stop perpetuating false things.
It just so happens I also have a Maverick, so I'm aware of what I'm comparing it to.

It's not that I'm decent at math, and I was not trying to get all smart on you. I said in the beginning: "It's not as simple as that.
Your "think about it" that if the 2 regs have the same "passage size" they will fill at the same rate doesn't work. To get a bigger picture dive into the conservation of mass in an open system, ideal gas flow and a combination of Boyle's, Charles and Gay-Lussac's laws."
I told you it was wrong and rather politely gave you the opportunity and direction to look things up yourself. Instead of looking into it, you decided to call a bluff maybe? I don't know. But I reply with a more in-depth reason because you're still saying the part is useless.

You're unwillingness to admit you are wrong is putting you in a cornered position, but this isn't my fault...
"No one has been condescending towards you and yet you bust out your math superiority" How could you even say this when what prompted me to give you some maths was your previous post!!??? "since your math is so good then please humor dimwits like me on the exact mathematical effect 17cc in plenum size delta would make?"

I'm starting to think you aren't even sure what you are talking about. "while I enjoy my mk2 with no delete at the range" You realize that the reg delete turns an impact into something closer to a MKII? Right? Some of the problems you do not encounter with the MKII are only seen in the M3 for some tunes. That's the point of the reg delete. 

No one is being condescending except you. How exactly is you saying the following not condescending: "it’s your money and you are more than welcome to stimulate the economy but the delete kit is plain marketing and waste of money." A rational person with good people interacting skills, would have looked into this more before continuing the conversation, probably wouldn't have said things like "plain marketing and waste of money" or "I guess if your money is burning a hole in your pocket then who am I to stop you."

Need I continue or can we all just conclude you don't know what you are talking about, you don't understand how the M3, plenums or regulators work and you are making false statements and insinuations?


 
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Just some data from a .22 700mm M3...

I'm shooting NSA 27.5s @ 955fps, 165bar 1st reg, 135 bar 2nd reg. Started with 225 bar in the bottle.

Decided to do a little test with a Magnetospeed V3 and some rapid fire shooting.

Shooting as fast as I can into the pellet trap, which according to the video took about 2.35 seconds for a 5 shot string, here's what the chronograph says:

1 953

2 945

3 934

4 914

5 901

So by shot 5 we've lost 52fps in velocity. That's not insignificant, and will certainly result in a large POI change at longer ranges. However, this was strictly a "shoot as fast as I can into my pellet trap" bench test and there was no pause between shots for re-aiming, so IMO it's not a totally realistic representation of actual shooting use.

As you can see it's easy to outrun the plenum refill rate on a rapid fire string, but it's interesting to note that the second shot really didn't lose that much velocity-- so in a hunting situation I can count on at least 1 rapid followup shot without a significant decrease in velocity and POI change. That applies to my rifle with the power level of this tune-- I'm sure higher power tunes or larger calibers that use more air volume per shot will see a more significant velocity dropoff on the second shot and subsequent shots thereafter in a rapid fire string.

If I slowed down the firing rate to 1 shot every 2 seconds, while you could still hear the plenum refilling when pulling the trigger the chronograph showed an ES of 6fps for a 10 shot string-- so a 2 second pause between shots is all my rifle needs to be consistent even though I can still hear the plenum refilling at the 2 second point.

If I get some time in the next couple days I may repeat the rapid fire test with the current reg settings but with my reduced hammer spring lower power pellet tune and see what happens to the shot to shot velocity drop on a rapid fire string. Also be interesting to repeat the test with the slugs at 955fps but with a higher 190 bar 1st reg setting, and repeat it again with the guts entirely removed from the 1st reg so it's just an empty bottle adapter and a single regulator rifle.

I'm quite happy knowing that I can at least get 1 "as fast as I can" followup shot and also keep up a sustained 1 shot every 2 second rate if needed without a significant drop in velocity... not that I ever rapid fire shoot the rifle other than an occasional quick follow up shot while hunting.

All I can suggest is get out your chronograph and test your rifle...
 
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Just some data from a .22 700mm M3...

I'm shooting NSA 27.5s @ 955fps, 165bar 1st reg, 135 bar 2nd reg. Started with 225 bar in the bottle.

Decided to do a little test with a Magnetospeed V3 and some rapid fire shooting.

Shooting as fast as I can into the pellet trap, which according to the video took about 2.35 seconds for a 5 shot string, here's what the chronograph says:

1 953

2 945

3 934

4 914

5 901

So by shot 5 we've lost 52fps in velocity. That's not insignificant, and will certainly result in a large POI change at longer ranges. However, this was strictly a "shoot as fast as I can into my pellet trap" bench test and there was no pause between shots for re-aiming, so IMO it's not a totally realistic representation of actual shooting use.

As you can see it's easy to outrun the plenum refill rate on a rapid fire string, but it's interesting to note that the second shot really didn't lose that much velocity-- so in a hunting situation I can count on at least 1 rapid followup shot without a significant decrease in velocity and POI change. That applies to my rifle with the power level of this tune-- I'm sure higher power tunes or larger calibers that use more air volume per shot will see a more significant velocity dropoff on the second shot and subsequent shots thereafter in a rapid fire string.

If I slowed down the firing rate to 1 shot every 2 seconds, while you could still hear the plenum refilling when pulling the trigger the chronograph showed an ES of 6fps for a 10 shot string-- so a 2 second pause between shots is all my rifle needs to be consistent even though I can still hear the plenum refilling at the 2 second point.

If I get some time in the next couple days I may repeat the rapid fire test with the current reg settings but with my reduced hammer spring lower power pellet tune and see what happens to the shot to shot velocity drop on a rapid fire string. Also be interesting to repeat the test with the slugs at 955fps but with a higher 190 bar 1st reg setting, and repeat it again with the guts entirely removed from the 1st reg so it's just an empty bottle adapter and a single regulator rifle.

I'm quite happy knowing that I can at least get 1 "as fast as I can" followup shot and also keep up a sustained 1 shot every 2 second rate if needed without a significant drop in velocity... not that I ever rapid fire shoot the rifle other than an occasional quick follow up shot while hunting.

All I can suggest is get out your chronograph and test your rifle...
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Yeah, I've done that too, my results weren't as extreme bc I wasn't trying to rapid fire in under 3 seconds but say if you're in a 6-12 shot speed comp, you will find poi shift due to replenish rate. Even a kyl speed string, experienced shift after the first couple shots. Oh well, I've found the combo that works for me...for now 🤣 




 
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