Made in USA? No products we like are mostly USA made, so what!

[Therealld]

Some of the most powerful, accurate, or fun airguns are made in places many readers here sort-of look down on like China, Korea, Turkey, Russia, and Philippines, yet more nice airgun stuff come from them than most other countries.

We American airgunners should realize how few airguns ARE made in usa! I can only recall a handful of brands.

I would love to see more good USA-made airgun stuff, and I feel I personally did more than most to do as much as I could to show it can be done.

But, more and more, I see a lot of “China Bashing” that sort of irks me because I kow the same guys bitching about junky Chinese-made items are posting on Chinese-made cellphones and laptops or tablets and home computers because they are the best for the buck! Isn't it hypocritical to lump Chinese made stuff as junk, yet slavishly buy it exclusively for certain products such as TV’s and computers?

See, a decade ago, many Chinese-made scopes were sub-standard for airgun use, but now, most airgunners use and love em! Pretty much ALL laser rangefinders are made there, as are most CF air tanks fittings and hoses. I have owned and shot very accurate, yet inexpensive break-barreled co2 powered air rifles.

I’m not Chinese, but I’m old enough to have seen about the same thing with Japanese made products, and am here to say they made what re-sellers said we wanted, and proved later they could have made best quality stuff IF we asked them to! I am technically a Japanese-American, though my Mom identified us as Okinawan, as do I, and they have no manufactured good to speak of I know of.

I have, over time, owned around 500 airguns, made in many different countries, some over 100 years old, some I got last week. I know a lot about the ones made before around 2010, but less about the most recent offerings. I have worked on many, many guns, and have desighed and built a few myself. I can find good in all of them. 

LD

 

[DonC]

For Father's day my son gave me a Leatherman Tool, (Pliers, knife ect.) It was a expensive gift and I really liked it.. This was many years ago. Recently at Menards I bought a China made knockoff for $7.00. When I got home I weighed it and went to my McMaster Carr catalog and found out that IF I bought hunk of stainless steel that weighed the same as the Menards version, it would also cost $7.00.

How can a American company compete? Was this product subsidized by the China government? Their labor costs are, of coarse, much lower. American airgun mfg's can never match the price points of China.

 

[JW652]

If I were an Okinawan, I would be scared witless by the openly stated objectives of the Chinese government and their aggressive military takeover of the Pacific from Indonesia to Japan.

Personally, do not want to do business with them, but believe that everyone should be able to make their own choice for their own reasons.

 

[elh0102]

I think when competition forces a US company to look offshore for production, the owners/managers often capitalize on maximum cost savings, and end up with substandard quality. Excellent products can be, and are made all over the world. If the US company that invests other places for production maintains its training, materials, and quality control, the resulting product can be excellent. Autos, optics, and air rifles are but a few examples. Cheap junk is just that, no matter where it's made, and the US has its share too. We live in a global market, and that's just our present reality. And that's not necessarily bad. As with many endeavors, success is obtained or lost by the quality of leadership. It has to be a top-down, all inclusive culture. 

 

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah Therealld,

I remember back in the late 1960's and early 1970's Japan was starting to get a foothold in the American market. Products where inexpensive, taking advantage of cheap Japanese labor - but they were also - not made very well. Turn to the last 1970's and the Japanese auto market was starting to make big headway in America. Today, foreign auto makers dominate the American market with the exception of Tesla - which has no real competition as yet.

The German and UK manufacturers dominate the Quality, Spring Airgun market.

American manufacturing trying to take advantage of the cheaper foreign labor have long ago exported their once "superior technology" abroad. Once these manufactures learned how make superior products and compete - game over because most American's are unwilling to pay that level of American made quality. 

The standard of living enjoyed by factory workers meant costs could not be cut, unfortunately most manufacturing has been lost.

All people are created equal - as were continue into the global market, many of American's have to accept a lower standard of living or wages for us to compete.

 

[Ripper]

Chinese air guns are made a lot better now than they were 15 years ago for sure.Would like to see more products made in the USA also by just like was already said how can we compete when we have to pay higher wages to the Employees. I’m old enough to remember made in Taiwan, Japan and now for the most part China. I remember all the jokes too. I remember when people used to laugh about Japan’s products. Well they were the leader in optics, especially cameras. Electronics also. All my old stereo systems were made in Japan And I still have my pioneer stereo receiver in my living room from 1978 that still works great. And as for their cars, them old Toyotas and Hondas would run forever but the bodies didn’t hold up good. But for right now I don’t have any problems buying Certain air guns from China. My thought process would’ve been different though years ago.

 

[Gerry52]

My fixed income dictates what is spent on my equipment & I make the best of what I have. My wallet dictates I be neither Nationalistic nor xenophobic about the products I buy. Even scopes claiming to be "American made" are, in reality, mostly Chinese with a few American components. I've bought plenty of American stuff in my life that wasn't worth a crap & left a bad taste in my mouth (especially American automobiles! ) To each his own!

 

[DutchMike]

From my perspective the Japanese culture is really very very different from the Chinese. More important the politics are wildly different, key being the Chinese people have no real freedom and are manipulated openly by the state and the communist party.

This aspect of the limitation of personal freedom should (my personal view) be appreciated as undesirable, especially on an (air)gun forum.

Personally, I do not buy any Chinese products if the choice is there. Unfortunately, that is not always the case.

Get educated and make your own choice where to buy or not. Or dont get educated, still your choice…

 

[ChRiSiS]

For Father's day my son gave me a Leatherman Tool, (Pliers, knife ect.) It was a expensive gift and I really liked it.. This was many years ago. Recently at Menards I bought a China made knockoff for $7.00. When I got home I weighed it and went to my McMaster Carr catalog and found out that IF I bought hunk of stainless steel that weighed the same as the Menards version, it would also cost $7.00.

How can a American company compete? Was this product subsidized by the China government? Their labor costs are, of coarse, much lower. American airgun mfg's can never match the price points of China.

I think it is more correct to say that American manufacturers will never match Chinese LABOR costs. There is a lot more that goes into the manufacturing of a product, from R&D to design, to the actual manufacturing. Many of those things are well within the capability of American manufacturers to compete, and beat, Chinese manufacturers. After all, if Sweden can produce top quality airguns, with a labor cost base higher than that of the US, we should be able to do so as well.

In my opinion, the bigger issue is American manufacturers willingness to invest in the machinery and equipment necessary to be competitive at scale. That is one thing where we have been beaten consistently over the last 2 decades by the Chinese (and others). Labor costs are only a part, and for some things a small part, of the total cost. Even then, the real question is not labor cost per se, but the relationship of labor costs and productivity. For many years, even though our labor costs were among the highest in the world, so was our productivity. This more than offset the base labor cost. Sadly, our productivity lead has eroded, and in some instances disappeared. 

Chris

 

[OldSpook]

OP objected to post... content removed... no worries.

 

[Therealld]

If I were an Okinawan, I would be scared witless by the openly stated objectives of the Chinese government and their aggressive military takeover of the Pacific from Indonesia to Japan.

Personally, do not want to do business with them, but believe that everyone should be able to make their own choice for their own reasons.

I’m an American, not an Okinawan. You are fool if you think WE are not in the line of the same objectives you “would be scared witless of”.

But my post was mostly about needless bashing by folks that don’t really encourage the mfg of American made airguns, not politics. I’ve traveled to many countries around the World, and if you think its easier to make and sell airguns competitively in Germany or England or Sweden than here you are wrong … its just the companies doing it ok work harder at it.

We’d soon buy than make.

As a teen, I worked as an apprentice machinist not flipping burgers, but there are darned few apprenticeship programs out this way, and kids mostly wouldn’t work that hard for that little either.

LD

 

[Therealld]

For Father's day my son gave me a Leatherman Tool, (Pliers, knife ect.) It was a expensive gift and I really liked it.. This was many years ago. Recently at Menards I bought a China made knockoff for $7.00. When I got home I weighed it and went to my McMaster Carr catalog and found out that IF I bought hunk of stainless steel that weighed the same as the Menards version, it would also cost $7.00.

How can a American company compete? Was this product subsidized by the China government? Their labor costs are, of coarse, much lower. American airgun mfg's can never match the price points of China.

I think it is more correct to say that American manufacturers will never match Chinese LABOR costs. There is a lot more that goes into the manufacturing of a product, from R&D to design, to the actual manufacturing. Many of those things are well within the capability of American manufacturers to compete, and beat, Chinese manufacturers. After all, if Sweden can produce top quality airguns, with a labor cost base higher than that of the US, we should be able to do so as well.

In my opinion, the bigger issue is American manufacturers willingness to invest in the machinery and equipment necessary to be competitive at scale. That is one thing where we have been beaten consistently over the last 2 decades by the Chinese (and others). Labor costs are only a part, and for some things a small part, of the total cost. Even then, the real question is not labor cost per se, but the relationship of labor costs and productivity. For many years, even though our labor costs were among the highest in the world, so was our productivity. This more than offset the base labor cost. Sadly, our productivity lead has eroded, and in some instances disappeared. 

Chris

So how much does a shop worker in USA make compared to a German or English worker?

 

[Therealld]

I don't know. I really don't like doing business with a nation which engages in forced organ harvesting, forced labor, and religious persecution. I don't think very highly of political re-education camps either.

Telling the truth about what is being done does not constitute China bashing.

To paraphrase a comedian, "here is your virus".

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Your post has NO airgun content



LD

 

[Therealld]

My fixed income dictates what is spent on my equipment & I make the best of what I have. My wallet dictates I be neither Nationalistic nor homophobic about the products I buy. Even scopes claiming to be "American made" are, in reality, mostly Chinese with a few American components. I've bought plenty of American stuff in my life tha

My fixed income dictates what is spent on my equipment & I make the best of what I have. My wallet dictates I be neither Nationalistic nor homophobic about the products I buy. Even scopes claiming to be "American made" are, in reality, mostly Chinese with a few American components. I've bought plenty of American stuff in my life that wasn't worth a crap & left a bad taste in my mouth (especially American automobiles! ) To each his own!

Homophobic? How is that relevant to airgun makers?

 

[AirShot]

I prefer to buy American when ever possible, but if tge item is not availiable nor of good quality then I buy whatever suits me. The USA will never be able to compete with cheap foreign mfgrs as our labor costs are to high. As a people we demandcthe better things in life, and no one is willingvto work for two bucks for a days (10-12 hr) pay!! We can reduce labor with robots, but then there would be no wages in which we can buy the items the robot is making... In time...and it will be a long time....the cheap labor rate in foreign countries will rise, already happenning in China, cheap labor in that country is fading fast!!! We have the knowledge and ability to make top notch airguns in this country, but why???? There are not enough customers to make it worthwhile!! Foreign countries have so many restrictions on firearms that the majority buy airguns, not the issue here in the US. American mfgrs are forced to use foreign mfgrs in order to keep costs down, they are at the mercy of us, the american consumer.......

 

[OldSpook]

For Father's day my son gave me a Leatherman Tool, (Pliers, knife ect.) It was a expensive gift and I really liked it.. This was many years ago. Recently at Menards I bought a China made knockoff for $7.00. When I got home I weighed it and went to my McMaster Carr catalog and found out that IF I bought hunk of stainless steel that weighed the same as the Menards version, it would also cost $7.00.

How can a American company compete? Was this product subsidized by the China government? Their labor costs are, of coarse, much lower. American airgun mfg's can never match the price points of China.

I think it is more correct to say that American manufacturers will never match Chinese LABOR costs. There is a lot more that goes into the manufacturing of a product, from R&D to design, to the actual manufacturing. Many of those things are well within the capability of American manufacturers to compete, and beat, Chinese manufacturers. After all, if Sweden can produce top quality airguns, with a labor cost base higher than that of the US, we should be able to do so as well.

In my opinion, the bigger issue is American manufacturers willingness to invest in the machinery and equipment necessary to be competitive at scale. That is one thing where we have been beaten consistently over the last 2 decades by the Chinese (and others). Labor costs are only a part, and for some things a small part, of the total cost. Even then, the real question is not labor cost per se, but the relationship of labor costs and productivity. For many years, even though our labor costs were among the highest in the world, so was our productivity. This more than offset the base labor cost. Sadly, our productivity lead has eroded, and in some instances disappeared. 

Chris

So how much does a shop worker in USA make compared to a German or English worker?

Hmmm, how much does that Uyghur Muslim in a re-education camp make per hour to make that wonderful Chinese optic? Do you suppose that might have anything to do with the difficulty western workers have competing with CCP labor costs? Do you think CCP uses the revenues from forced organ harvesting to subsidize the costs of operating the manufacturing facilities in those re-education camps? Do you think that MIGHT contribute to the problem other nations have competing with CCP manufacturers? When a nation, like the US, does all the R&D for new technology (think that phone you are using) and the CCP STEALS that tech, copies it, and begins building it in those re-education camps, do you think that MIGHT offer an advantage in the market place which western nations have trouble competing with? 

Does this post meet your definition of "relevant" in the context of this thread?

 

[ChRiSiS]

For Father's day my son gave me a Leatherman Tool, (Pliers, knife ect.) It was a expensive gift and I really liked it.. This was many years ago. Recently at Menards I bought a China made knockoff for $7.00. When I got home I weighed it and went to my McMaster Carr catalog and found out that IF I bought hunk of stainless steel that weighed the same as the Menards version, it would also cost $7.00.

How can a American company compete? Was this product subsidized by the China government? Their labor costs are, of coarse, much lower. American airgun mfg's can never match the price points of China.

I think it is more correct to say that American manufacturers will never match Chinese LABOR costs. There is a lot more that goes into the manufacturing of a product, from R&D to design, to the actual manufacturing. Many of those things are well within the capability of American manufacturers to compete, and beat, Chinese manufacturers. After all, if Sweden can produce top quality airguns, with a labor cost base higher than that of the US, we should be able to do so as well.

In my opinion, the bigger issue is American manufacturers willingness to invest in the machinery and equipment necessary to be competitive at scale. That is one thing where we have been beaten consistently over the last 2 decades by the Chinese (and others). Labor costs are only a part, and for some things a small part, of the total cost. Even then, the real question is not labor cost per se, but the relationship of labor costs and productivity. For many years, even though our labor costs were among the highest in the world, so was our productivity. This more than offset the base labor cost. Sadly, our productivity lead has eroded, and in some instances disappeared. 

Chris

So how much does a shop worker in USA make compared to a German or English worker?

Well, I am not sure what that has to do with my comment, but it can still be answered. The relevant numbers are (in terms of average labor costs per hour 2016) US $39.03, UK $28.41 and Germany $43.18.

The key question is how productive are the various workers at these different wage levels. If the US worker is twice as productive (NOT the case by the way) then the fact that their wages are higher than say, those in the UK, would still mean that the labor cost per unit of output is lower in the US. Then, there are other factors, like the extent to which capital equipment is necessary to enable that higher productivity.

Simply put, labor costs are only one part of the equation, not the whole story. Clearly labor costs matter more in highly labor intensive types of manufacturing than in those situations where the labor cost is a much smaller fraction of the cost of manufacturing (for example, in microchip manufacturing).

Chris

 

[boscoebrea]

I care....That said the "State" run big Chinese companies are unbelievably advanced.....they were made not to compete ,but to dominate.

Another thing is that they can make your idea a reality.....for them.LOL.....

We are spoiled...I see it here all the time...and a lot of air gun shooters can not afford to spend over $300 on this sport.





The guy likes Hawaiian shirts and helps most he knows.

 

[John "spysir" Blount]

LD,

Love the point I'm thinking you intended to bring out. As in you have done it. Others can could do it as well. Now through in the world wide market and it is naturally really complicated, differnt laws/rules & regs in every darn one,... ... . But it does seem these day's someone(s)/ more companies with the machines around could make a quality product at a at a reasonable price.

Being utilitarian by nature I just loved the old "bag-o-pipes" it even got better looking after the 1st shot and was a lovely thing after 100 shots. 

Personally think it's 90% most buyer want "latest greatest" period.

With all the new big-bore hunter's a traditional looking (air tube in stock, fill through butt) single shot muzzle loader might be a reasonable made in the U.S. project for someone(s)?

John

 

[biohazardman]

I am very much against buying China made goods. They deliberately pushed the China virus out and around the world and killed many millions of people doing so. Their government is just plain evil. It set on complete suppression of thought and perfect control of their people. They have many labor camps/concentration camps for people that will not adhere to their way of thought control. They have world dominance on their business and political menu. 

Once you have something made there it is copied cheaply made and put out on the market destroying much of your business. If they want your company name for theirs and you will not sell it to them. They once again just copy your products and sell them openly for next to nothing destroying much of your business. Then they come in and take your company name once you are no longer in business or are forced to sell.

Can they make decent Items well yes they can but not at a cost most would want to pay. So we get the lower labor cost junk from the prisoners in the labor camps of different religion, thought, color, race and others werqing at near starve to death wages just to stay alive.

So, I try not to buy to much from them but it is a hard thing to do these days as so many of our corrupt and thoughtless companies after nothing but the mighty $$ have shipped their product manufacturing to China. Many of these companies with well known brand names really no longer exist as China has taken them over.

Bad China Evil !!