N/A Magnum Pumpers or lack there of...?..?.?.?.?

[joe9090]

Magnum pumpers or lack there of


Once again i find myself reminiscing about airguns of days past. Magnum pumpers have always been guns i see so much potential for, but always seem to fall short when manufacturers try there hand at bringing one to market.

The 2 Magnum pumpers that come to mind are the Fx Independence and for the life of me i cant remember the name? I belive it was called the wicked monster by Mike at Rat sniper slugs, i remember how bada.. they were with there boyds custom stocks and high power.

Both guns were amazing in my eyes, but came with there short comings. The Fx Independence was plagued with leaking and the Wicked monster i believe met its demise due to high cost to manufacturer which inevitably drove the price up, in turn driving away interest.

The offerings today are low power topping out at 15 or 16 foot pounds. Boy would i love to see a bullet proof pumper cracking out a super hot 50 foot pounds. Man that would absolutely tickle me pink

With technology progression in pcp air rifles we must have a way to pull it off. Its a pcp with out the need for compressors or bulky pumps and tanks. Now does someone really want to target shoot with such a rifle? Probably not unless you are on copious amounts of steroids and have arms for days but i Digress...

Hunting on the other hand or a SHTF type scenario for a bug out survival set up....ahhh perfection. And with the advancements in slug shooting barrels that could be a fantastic selling point.

I really wish i would have listened to my Uncle as a child and spent time in his machine shops to learn a thing or two about working with metal. God knows they all tried with me but i was busy off in la la land because my adhd has adhd

Well if there are any folks in airgun land reading this there are some consumers who still would fancy a Magnum pumper. At least me anyway.

Untill the next time im day dreaming about a airgun that is long forgotten, so long and salutations.

 

[klentz]

Titan Mohawk

 

[Scotay42]

Unfortunately, Magnum Pumper is an oxymoron of sort. To retain seal stability, pressure needs to stay low. Pcp pressure is obtained through not moving said orings and seals while under 2000 psi+.

 

[Dr. Kralenstein]

Ok, so now I'm trying to figure out how to mount a hand pump to an air rifle.

 

[Arzrover]

You could build your own

My Version of the Millenium Pumper - Airguns & Guns Forum

My Version of the Millenium Pumper, Air guns, Airgun Forum

www.gatewaytoairguns.org

As far as I know, the Independence, Seneca Aspen, Daystate Sportsman, Quigley rifle, and Sharp Ace Target in 22 were the only factory pumpers that could exceed 20 ft lb.
The Independence and Aspen were good ideas, poorly executed, the Sportsman and Ace were TOUGH to pump to anywhere near that power, and the Quigley... well good luck finding one.
I own an Ace and Sportsman and rarely pump over 12 ft lb.
I'd build my own along the lines of what Bob did but don't care for the 2 screw breech mounting on the Disco. I'd build one based on the Fortitude but just never have picked one up.
The problem with a commercial attempt is that the market is quite small with people that would pay what it would cost to build one of high quality that would actually want to exert the energy to shoot it. Witness the last attempt to bring in Sharp... the Ace Target were listed for $500 and took a LONG time to sell. The Quigley was the last venture that I know about and he was reputed to have made only 5 but was trying to sell them with Koa stocks for $2800.
In this age of CNC it does seem like something should be possible but there's still that small market thing...
Bob

 

[joe9090]

You could build your own

My Version of the Millenium Pumper - Airguns & Guns Forum

My Version of the Millenium Pumper, Air guns, Airgun Forum

www.gatewaytoairguns.org

As far as I know, the Independence, Seneca Aspen, Daystate Sportsman, Quigley rifle, and Sharp Ace Target in 22 were the only factory pumpers that could exceed 20 ft lb.
The Independence and Aspen were good ideas, poorly executed, the Sportsman and Ace were TOUGH to pump to anywhere near that power, and the Quigley... well good luck finding one.
I own an Ace and Sportsman and rarely pump over 12 ft lb.
I'd build my own along the lines of what Bob did but don't care for the 2 screw breech mounting on the Disco. I'd build one based on the Fortitude but just never have picked one up.
The problem with a commercial attempt is that the market is quite small with people that would pay what it would cost to build one of high quality that would actually want to exert the energy to shoot it. Witness the last attempt to bring in Sharp... the Ace Target were listed for $500 and took a LONG time to sell. The Quigley was the last venture that I know about and he was reputed to have made only 5 but was trying to sell them with Koa stocks for $2800.
In this age of CNC it does seem like something should be possible but there's still that small market thing...
Bob

I wish i had the machines and the know how.

 

[BABz58]

You could build your own

My Version of the Millenium Pumper - Airguns & Guns Forum

My Version of the Millenium Pumper, Air guns, Airgun Forum

www.gatewaytoairguns.org

As far as I know, the Independence, Seneca Aspen, Daystate Sportsman, Quigley rifle, and Sharp Ace Target in 22 were the only factory pumpers that could exceed 20 ft lb.
The Independence and Aspen were good ideas, poorly executed, the Sportsman and Ace were TOUGH to pump to anywhere near that power, and the Quigley... well good luck finding one.
I own an Ace and Sportsman and rarely pump over 12 ft lb.
I'd build my own along the lines of what Bob did but don't care for the 2 screw breech mounting on the Disco. I'd build one based on the Fortitude but just never have picked one up.
The problem with a commercial attempt is that the market is quite small with people that would pay what it would cost to build one of high quality that would actually want to exert the energy to shoot it. Witness the last attempt to bring in Sharp... the Ace Target were listed for $500 and took a LONG time to sell. The Quigley was the last venture that I know about and he was reputed to have made only 5 but was trying to sell them with Koa stocks for $2800.
In this age of CNC it does seem like something should be possible but there's still that small market thing...
Bob

The Quigley. Sooo sweet

 

[L.Leon]

I would assume that the market for such a beast is small… those intending to actually pump them up? Smaller still, and those willing to part with the coin for such a unique pumper? Miniscule… If it was a choice between such a high powered pumper and a simple recurve bow in a SHTF situation as premised? The bow and other simpler rudimentary weapons or tools over the HP pumper… A lower power pumper however would be more effective at procuring small game for the pot in said SHTF scenario.

 

[Sawney Bean]

I’ve been somewhat obsessed with pumpers for about a year now and I’ve got two that would qualify as magnums. My .25 Seneca Aspen will make about 38 fpe and requires about 6 pumps per shot. I’m sure it could be tuned to deliver more than that though as it’s basically just a PCP with a self contained pump. My Steroid 392PA reaches 29 fpe with 20 pumps and 25 grain pellets and sounds nearly as loud as a rim fire.

I really think that the Air Conserving Pumper is the concept that has the most potential but that potential has barely been tapped at all. The main reason multipump pneumatics aren’t more popular is because they are a lot of work to shoot and the biggest reason why they require so much work is because they dump their entire charge of air with every shot and you have to start over again at 0 psi every time.

 

[Arzrover]

I’ve been somewhat obsessed with pumpers for about a year now and I’ve got two that would qualify as magnums. My .25 Seneca Aspen will make about 38 fpe and requires about 6 pumps per shot. I’m sure it could be tuned to deliver more than that though as it’s basically just a PCP with a self contained pump. My Steroid 392PA reaches 29 fpe with 20 pumps and 25 grain pellets and sounds nearly as loud as a rim fire.

I really think that the Air Conserving Pumper is the concept that has the most potential but that potential has barely been tapped at all. The main reason multipump pneumatics aren’t more popular is because they are a lot of work to shoot and the biggest reason why they require so much work is because they dump their entire charge of air with every shot and you have to start over again at 0 psi every time.

I've been pretty enamored with pumps since about 1977 and have owned a good sampling and been inside all, including the Quigley... It is pretty unique in design and not difficult to pump at all. A good engineer could refresh it with more simplicity but it's still a somewhat heavy rifle. The conserving air concept is likely the best route, especially when coupled with a multistage pump like the Aspen and Independence but there's the complexity that will somewhat govern dependability and above all that... WEIGHT ... It's going to be quite difficult to design a robust, dependable, powerful rifle that doesn't weigh a ton. My Sportsman is an absolute beast and the Sharp Ace Target, not far behind. I just sold an Innova that I had happened upon that was quite light and handy but nowhere near as robust as its expensive big brother.
Really makes you appreciate the Benjamin, early Crosman, and above all them, the Sheridan A model. They were so light and dependable but still capable of decent hunting power. LD had at one point messed around with a conserving air Benjamin but the lack of reservoir is the big problem on them.
Maybe I should see what it looks like to put a reservoir on an old Benji or Crosman... could be interesting...
Bob

 

[Sawney Bean]

I've been pretty enamored with pumps since about 1977 and have owned a good sampling and been inside all, including the Quigley... It is pretty unique in design and not difficult to pump at all. A good engineer could refresh it with more simplicity but it's still a somewhat heavy rifle. The conserving air concept is likely the best route, especially when coupled with a multistage pump like the Aspen and Independence but there's the complexity that will somewhat govern dependability and above all that... WEIGHT ... It's going to be quite difficult to design a robust, dependable, powerful rifle that doesn't weigh a ton. My Sportsman is an absolute beast and the Sharp Ace Target, not far behind. I just sold an Innova that I had happened upon that was quite light and handy but nowhere near as robust as its expensive big brother.
Really makes you appreciate the Benjamin, early Crosman, and above all them, the Sheridan A model. They were so light and dependable but still capable of decent hunting power. LD had at one point messed around with a conserving air Benjamin but the lack of reservoir is the big problem on them.
Maybe I should see what it looks like to put a reservoir on an old Benji or Crosman... could be interesting...
Bob

I think I might have seen that Innova. That trigger took a little getting used to.

Personally I think an air conserving pumper paired to a single stage pump would be best in terms of both weight and simplicity. High pressure makes sense for a PCP as it allows more shots and more power from the same size reservoir or barrel, but with an ACP it makes a lot less sense. An ACP really only needs to get off one shot, so if it can get a good velocity from 1000 psi and still retain 750 psi afterwards that shouldn’t be an issue.

 

[Vana2]

In the mid 60's the Crosman 101 was my first real "hunting capable" airgun. It was solidly built and I shot lots of small game with it. But I always wished that I could pump it a bunch and get a couple of shots before pumping again.

Over the decades I've tried a number of pumpers and found the experience to be less than satisfying as most seem to be built as cheap as possible. Molded plastic stocks, pot-metal castings, stamped sheet metal, and roll-pins - hardly a machined part anywhere.

Recently, I was gifted a Crosman 392 and had to make a new stock for it because the factory stock was not suitable for iron sights and mounting a scope is not an easy or practical option. Great one Crosman, obviously non of the engineers tried shooting the 392 before they approved the design.

My recommendation is if you want a powerful multi-pump airgun is to buy a suitable PCP and a good hand-pump. That way you have all the power you want, you can pump it up after every shot or every couple of shots if you prefer.

Good luck in your quest!

Cheers!

 

[3Crows]

I think the real reason is what would you do with it? Not good for bench pumping each shot, not good for hunting due to huge size and weight compared to many PCP (which are mostly fat pigs also) and therefore there just is no niche for it to fill other than for the sake of wow, that is cool, next.

 

[beerthief]

Magnum pumpers or lack there of


Once again i find myself reminiscing about airguns of days past. Magnum pumpers have always been guns i see so much potential for, but always seem to fall short when manufacturers try there hand at bringing one to market.

The 2 Magnum pumpers that come to mind are the Fx Independence and for the life of me i cant remember the name? I belive it was called the wicked monster by Mike at Rat sniper slugs, i remember how bada.. they were with there boyds custom stocks and high power.

Both guns were amazing in my eyes, but came with there short comings. The Fx Independence was plagued with leaking and the Wicked monster i believe met its demise due to high cost to manufacturer which inevitably drove the price up, in turn driving away interest.

The offerings today are low power topping out at 15 or 16 foot pounds. Boy would i love to see a bullet proof pumper cracking out a super hot 50 foot pounds. Man that would absolutely tickle me pink

With technology progression in pcp air rifles we must have a way to pull it off. Its a pcp with out the need for compressors or bulky pumps and tanks. Now does someone really want to target shoot with such a rifle? Probably not unless you are on copious amounts of steroids and have arms for days but i Digress...

Hunting on the other hand or a SHTF type scenario for a bug out survival set up....ahhh perfection. And with the advancements in slug shooting barrels that could be a fantastic selling point.

I really wish i would have listened to my Uncle as a child and spent time in his machine shops to learn a thing or two about working with metal. God knows they all tried with me but i was busy off in la la land because my adhd has adhd

Well if there are any folks in airgun land reading this there are some consumers who still would fancy a Magnum pumper. At least me anyway.

Untill the next time im day dreaming about a airgun that is long forgotten, so long and salutations.

View attachment 517968

if you want to get the idea of owning a high power pumper , just shoot a FX mk ?? down to the reg. and pump it up full , shoot one shot and drain the bottle repeat till it is no fun any more , This also saves you a lot of money buying a gun that you would only shoot a few times.

 

[Sawney Bean]

In the mid 60's the Crosman 101 was my first real "hunting capable" airgun. It was solidly built and I shot lots of small game with it. But I always wished that I could pump it a bunch and get a couple of shots before pumping again.

Over the decades I've tried a number of pumpers and found the experience to be less than satisfying as most seem to be built as cheap as possible. Molded plastic stocks, pot-metal castings, stamped sheet metal, and roll-pins - hardly a machined part anywhere.

Recently, I was gifted a Crosman 392 and had to make a new stock for it because the factory stock was not suitable for iron sights and mounting a scope is not an easy or practical option. Great one Crosman, obviously non of the engineers tried shooting the 392 before they approved the design.

My recommendation is if you want a powerful multi-pump airgun is to buy a suitable PCP and a good hand-pump. That way you have all the power you want, you can pump it up after every shot or every couple of shots if you prefer.

Good luck in your quest!

Cheers!

My experience so far has been almost identical to yours, but for some reason I’ve still got the multipump bug.

The best multipumps I have encountered so far are the 1960-1990 Benjamins and Sheridans and for their time period I would consider them to be excellent. They were more powerful than the springers of their day and back then optics weren’t yet the standard and silencers were seen as off limits, so if you wanted a quality airgun they were a good option. However, what was competitive in 1975 wasn’t competitive anymore in 1995. These days they’re still a decent gun, but there are springers and PCP’s that are considerably better.

The other early guns like the Crosman 101 or 140 all seemed to be less powerful and have even worse optics options. They weren’t bad guns, but they aren’t as good as the Benjamins or Sheridans.

The plastic youth guns like the Crosman 766 and Daisy 880 could mount optics, but they were very cheaply made and underpowered. For the most part they’re not in the same league as the guns I listed above. A model 1 might come close though.

Unfortunately not many Sharps ever made it here. I’ve recently acquired an Innova and it’s an interesting gun. I’m not sure exactly how the trigger works yet, but it seems to directly release the valve without any striker mechanism. It’s not a heavy trigger by any means, but it requires a different trigger pull than I am used to. If you just slowly squeeze the trigger what you’ll often do is just crack the valve open a hair and the air will leak out without firing the rifle or will fire it very weakly. Instead, you have to decisively squeeze the trigger when you want to make the shot.

Unfortunately the Innova used some plastic in its construction and those plastic parts create a few weak points and replacements are not available. It’s not an easy rifle to pump either.

I’ve never seen the other Sharp models, but I understand they all use the same trigger mechanism and that the higher end models have nicer wood and less plastic. They have an excellent reputation for accuracy and they’re probably great guns, but I feel that trigger is a downside.

The Seneca Aspen is the gun that really should have been the GOAT but isn’t. It’s powerful, efficient, accurate, gets several shots per charge and still manages to be that gun you really don’t enjoy shooting. To start with, it just feels really, really cheap. Personally, I really like wood stocks and there are nice polymer stocks as well but this isn’t one of them. The plastic stock on the Aspen makes the Croswood stocks on a 2100 seem like select walnut in comparison. It’s just a light, cheap and flexible piece of ABS. It’s also very bulky. The way they stacked the pump, reservoir barrel and pump handle and its overall dimensions just result in a rifle that feels like it was cut from a 2x10. The barrel shroud is very ineffective and because of how it’s mounted, if you add a suppressor you’re likely to get baffle strikes. You can make a few baffles of your own though and add them to the shroud and that improves it immensely. Then there’s accuracy. Mine shoots nice groups, until I lean it up against the wall or put it in a case and then I find that the point of impact has shifted 3 inches. I haven’t yet figured out what’s loose and I’m sure this can be fixed, but I just haven’t enjoyed shooting it enough to take the time to find out. I think that a lot of it might be due to its flexibility. It’s a rifle that you can actually see twist a little if you grab the front and rear and twist them slightly. It’s also a gun that is infamous for pump failure and many of them have been converted to PCPs because of this.

So that’s my experience so far with multipump pneumatics and I still find myself fascinated by them for some reason. I think it’s because I really want to see one done right.

 

[SteveV]

Part of the problem is what's considered a magnum? I've actually seen it suggested on this very forum that anything under 30 fpe is a "low powered airgun"

14 fpe from a pumper when I was a kid would've truly been a magnum. A well tuned 20 fpe springer still feels like a magnum.

We all want a jumbo shrimp unicorn it seems.

 

[3Crows]

I have a Steroid 392 and a home made Steroid 392. Both can get over 16 fpe. Which is about what the lowest price, simple little Crosman 3622 PCP does easily with no pumping or increase in size or weight.

Saying that, if there were a 36 to 38 inches long pumper making a solid 16 to 24 fpe in a 6 pounds package, I would be interested but only if North America or Euro made..

 

[Arzrover]

My experience so far has been almost identical to yours, but for some reason I’ve still got the multipump bug.

The best multipumps I have encountered so far are the 1960-1990 Benjamins and Sheridans and for their time period I would consider them to be excellent. They were more powerful than the springers of their day and back then optics weren’t yet the standard and silencers were seen as off limits, so if you wanted a quality airgun they were a good option. However, what was competitive in 1975 wasn’t competitive anymore in 1995. These days they’re still a decent gun, but there are springers and PCP’s that are considerably better.

The other early guns like the Crosman 101 or 140 all seemed to be less powerful and have even worse optics options. They weren’t bad guns, but they aren’t as good as the Benjamins or Sheridans.

The plastic youth guns like the Crosman 766 and Daisy 880 could mount optics, but they were very cheaply made and underpowered. For the most part they’re not in the same league as the guns I listed above. A model 1 might come close though.

Unfortunately not many Sharps ever made it here. I’ve recently acquired an Innova and it’s an interesting gun. I’m not sure exactly how the trigger works yet, but it seems to directly release the valve without any striker mechanism. It’s not a heavy trigger by any means, but it requires a different trigger pull than I am used to. If you just slowly squeeze the trigger what you’ll often do is just crack the valve open a hair and the air will leak out without firing the rifle or will fire it very weakly. Instead, you have to decisively squeeze the trigger when you want to make the shot.

Unfortunately the Innova used some plastic in its construction and those plastic parts create a few weak points and replacements are not available. It’s not an easy rifle to pump either.

I’ve never seen the other Sharp models, but I understand they all use the same trigger mechanism and that the higher end models have nicer wood and less plastic. They have an excellent reputation for accuracy and they’re probably great guns, but I feel that trigger is a downside.

The Seneca Aspen is the gun that really should have been the GOAT but isn’t. It’s powerful, efficient, accurate, gets several shots per charge and still manages to be that gun you really don’t enjoy shooting. To start with, it just feels really, really cheap. Personally, I really like wood stocks and there are nice polymer stocks as well but this isn’t one of them. The plastic stock on the Aspen makes the Croswood stocks on a 2100 seem like select walnut in comparison. It’s just a light, cheap and flexible piece of ABS. It’s also very bulky. The way they stacked the pump, reservoir barrel and pump handle and its overall dimensions just result in a rifle that feels like it was cut from a 2x10. The barrel shroud is very ineffective and because of how it’s mounted, if you add a suppressor you’re likely to get baffle strikes. You can make a few baffles of your own though and add them to the shroud and that improves it immensely. Then there’s accuracy. Mine shoots nice groups, until I lean it up against the wall or put it in a case and then I find that the point of impact has shifted 3 inches. I haven’t yet figured out what’s loose and I’m sure this can be fixed, but I just haven’t enjoyed shooting it enough to take the time to find out. I think that a lot of it might be due to its flexibility. It’s a rifle that you can actually see twist a little if you grab the front and rear and twist them slightly. It’s also a gun that is infamous for pump failure and many of them have been converted to PCPs because of this.

So that’s my experience so far with multipump pneumatics and I still find myself fascinated by them for some reason. I think it’s because I really want to see one done right.

I failed to mention Heirinkan earlier and they were reputed to be the pinnacle of the multi pump rifles. I'venever owned one but I believe Ron Robinson has... along with a pile of others...
The Sharp Ace Target trigger is similar to the Innova in design concept only.. It truly is Olympic grade at the lower pumps but does get up to around half pound at high power. Don't know of anyone that wasn't impressed by my Ace Hunter Deluxe (Target in a sporter stock).
The VERY BEST built multi pump I've owned was the Sharp Pan Target but the trigger guard was SO small, I could barely get my finger in it, so I ended up selling it. The Sharp Targets are EXTRAORDINARILY accurate. Angled pump lever Target series had a plastic pump pivot support and plastic pump handle which I replaced with brass and aluminum pieces. Pan Target and earlier were all steel. My Sporter stocked one had a documented 70,000+ rounds through it when I got it and is better than ever with my simple pieces. My Target stocked one had a documented 40,000 rounds through it when I got it. Triggers are nice...
The Ace Hunter was a robust but lighter rifle than the Target series but heavier than the Innova. The trigger is different than the Innova but no better...
I'm definitely a fan...
They are not light though but lighter than the Brit pumpers...
Bob

 

[6gun]

Part of the problem is what's considered a magnum? I've actually seen it suggested on this very forum that anything under 30 fpe is a "low powered airgun"

14 fpe from a pumper when I was a kid would've truly been a magnum. A well tuned 20 fpe springer still feels like a magnum.

We all want a jumbo shrimp unicorn it seems.

My 90s benjamin 392 is just under 700fps with 18 jsb and it did me well from 1996 to maybe 2016. Maybe with some of the 13xx tricks like essentially reworking the entire pump portion of the gun you could see some more power, but i didnt know I needed or wanted more till i went pcp. This is a regular discussion in my circle when somebody is chasing a couple more fps or ft lb.

Thousands of critters fell to sub 15 ft lbs in our youth.

If you commissioned some custom parts on a gun that lends itself to the project, perhaps you could re work or clone in a shorter stroke a pcp hand pump. It would be a bear to pump. Before I got above 30 ft lbs in a premo gun I was pcp converting 1322 crosman pumpers to 15 ft lbs. I wonder if thru a lot of engineering and fabrication if converting an mrod or discovery to pump is feasible?

 

[SteveV]

My 90s benjamin 392 is just under 700fps with 18 jsb and it did me well from 1996 to maybe 2016. Maybe with some of the 13xx tricks like essentially reworking the entire pump portion of the gun you could see some more power, but i didnt know I needed or wanted more till i went pcp. This is a regular discussion in my circle when somebody is chasing a couple more fps or ft lb.

Thousands of critters fell to sub 15 ft lbs in our youth.

If you commissioned some custom parts on a gun that lends itself to the project, perhaps you could re work or clone in a shorter stroke a pcp hand pump. It would be a bear to pump. Before I got above 30 ft lbs in a premo gun I was pcp converting 1322 crosman pumpers to 15 ft lbs. I wonder if thru a lot of engineering and fabrication if converting an mrod or discovery to pump is feasible?

Do a search on Bob Sterne's Discovery based pumper?

I hunted for years with a 17.5 fpe Vortek kitted Diana Panther 34 in .22, To5 trigger. I never felt under gunned, but I almost always kept my shots under 40 yards. If chicken of the tree was further out than my comfort zone, I did my best to close the gap. Since hunting with pcp the last few seasons, I've had to remind myself that I have the tool to stretch that comfort zone.