N/A Moisture in PCP airguns

Speaking of scba bottle....i just thought of something, so for those of you who have been in this PCP game for awhile, do you hydro test your tank or bottle every 2 to 3 years? if you don't, what do you do with your tank? keep using it until the burst disk at the bottom of the bottom starting to poke out? lol It may sound like a dumb question but this PCP stuff is quite new to me as well. or do you just throw away the tank entirely every 3 years and get new one?

how about the CF or aluminum bottles that came with our PCP guns? they do expired at some point from wear and tear after certain number of refills don't they?
 
TUXING PCP Oil Water Filter High Pressure Diving Separator Air Compressor Scuba
ebay under gold desicant filter pcp
 
Regarding adding silicone oil to the fill port, I tried this approach in my first PCP but when I eventually took it apart, I could not find any evidence that the silicone oil atomizes and migrates through the system. There was a little bit just beyond the check valve on the air tube walls but everything else was bone dry as best I could tell (e.g. wiping a finger on metal surfaces and then observing the surface with light reflecting at a shallow angle).

When I want silicone on internal surfaces, I apply it directly to them. For example, for an air tube I'll wrap a piece of foam from a JSB tin around a dowel, secure it with a zip tie, apply a generous amount of silicone oil to it, and sweep it in and out of the tube.
This is what I have always heard to be true 👍
 
If you put silicone in a system, it never completely disappears. Visual observation is not enough. I can tell you from 50 years of spraying paint and 20 years of wax companies putting silicone in their products it does not dissipate or wash off easily. It is a bane for the painting industry. Many builders and manufacturers of Co2 and pneumatic guns recommend a drop of silicon oil or Crossman Pell gun oil on the tip of a Co2 cartridge or drop in the air chamber.

The canister dryers we all use will help but they will soon give out if you fill a number of times a day in high heat and humidity. Humidity measurements is not enough because the volume of moisture held in the air depends on its temperature.

Industry uses refrigerant and centrifugal systems made for very dry air and is way above most of our pay grades. What we use and painters use is coalescing filters which work ok under small demands. When I paint I have a large coalescing system that feeds my air system. Then I have a small one at the gun. I also use drop legs with drains to capture and eliminate water, your tank can be considered a drop leg.

To sum it up IME and IMO moister in airguns is way over blown. I have not seen in 25 years of using compressors for PCP's, damage or even corrosion in any of my guns be they aluminum tanks or steel.
 
If you put silicone in a system, it never completely disappears. Visual observation is not enough. I can tell you from 50 years of spraying paint and 20 years of wax companies putting silicone in their products it does not dissipate or wash off easily. It is a bane for the painting industry. Many builders and manufacturers of Co2 and pneumatic guns recommend a drop of silicon oil or Crossman Pell gun oil on the tip of a Co2 cartridge or drop in the air chamber.

The canister dryers we all use will help but they will soon give out if you fill a number of times a day in high heat and humidity. Humidity measurements is not enough because the volume of moisture held in the air depends on its temperature.

Industry uses refrigerant and centrifugal systems made for very dry air and is way above most of our pay grades. What we use and painters use is coalescing filters which work ok under small demands. When I paint I have a large coalescing system that feeds my air system. Then I have a small one at the gun. I also use drop legs with drains to capture and eliminate water, your tank can be considered a drop leg.

To sum it up IME and IMO moister in airguns is way over blown. I have not seen in 25 years of using compressors for PCP's, damage or even corrosion in any of my guns be they aluminum tanks or steel.
Glad to hear (y)
 
I've quite literally inspected hundreds of gun bottles and have yet to see standing water or silicone oil in a PCP.

Pumpers and break-actions?

Flood those with silicone oil!! They are always rusty and moist. Yuck!
You lost me on that one. How in the world do you get silicone into the air chamber of those?? Are they like a Seneca Aspen which has an oilable pad in the mechanism?
 
This is always a subject you’ll get alot of different opinions on. So many recommend to put silicon oil to the check valve, etc. I do it occasionally myself to. Probably continue to do it.

Here’s something I found really interesting/ weird. I got an older Logun and asked two very well respected UK Airgun Smiths what to do.(Not some random newbies either) Both said absolutely NO Silicon oil. One guy literally wrote “DO NOT OIL PORT!!” As his first sentence back to me haha.

A little off the subject of moisture and air but I couldn’t believe it. Adding silicone oil is like the standard here in the US. I should have asked why. Sounded like they just use grease. The one gentleman worked for webley so probably worked on thousands of airguns.

Happy Shooting Fellas
Rob
 
This is always a subject you’ll get alot of different opinions on. So many recommend to put silicon oil to the check valve, etc. I do it occasionally myself to. Probably continue to do it.

Here’s something I found really interesting/ weird. I got an older Logun and asked two very well respected UK Airgun Smiths what to do.(Not some random newbies either) Both said absolutely NO Silicon oil. One guy literally wrote “DO NOT OIL PORT!!” As his first sentence back to me haha.

A little off the subject of moisture and air but I couldn’t believe it. Adding silicone oil is like the standard here in the US. I should have asked why. Sounded like they just use grease. The one gentleman worked for webley so probably worked on thousands of airguns.

Happy Shooting Fellas
Rob

Correct!!!

Never oil the port...

He didn't tell you he was referring to petroleum based oils?

I'm NOT telling anybody to oil guns that should not be oiled, this is about PCP's.
 
Correct!!!

Never oil the port...

He didn't tell you he was referring to petroleum based oils?

I'm NOT telling anybody to oil guns that should not be oiled, this is about PCP's.
My post wasn’t referring to you at all though. Just something I wanted to share that I found interesting. A Logun is a pcp Airgun 🤦‍♂️. They both said no Silicon oil which I found different. Edit: Since I guess I have to be specific I asked if I should put a few drops of silicon oil in the fill port(foster fitting).

Most suggests putting a few drops here in the US. Just shocked they said No
 
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If you put silicone in a system, it never completely disappears. Visual observation is not enough. I can tell you from 50 years of spraying paint and 20 years of wax companies putting silicone in their products it does not dissipate or wash off easily. It is a bane for the painting industry. Many builders and manufacturers of Co2 and pneumatic guns recommend a drop of silicon oil or Crossman Pell gun oil on the tip of a Co2 cartridge or drop in the air chamber.

The canister dryers we all use will help but they will soon give out if you fill a number of times a day in high heat and humidity. Humidity measurements is not enough because the volume of moisture held in the air depends on its temperature.

Industry uses refrigerant and centrifugal systems made for very dry air and is way above most of our pay grades. What we use and painters use is coalescing filters which work ok under small demands. When I paint I have a large coalescing system that feeds my air system. Then I have a small one at the gun. I also use drop legs with drains to capture and eliminate water, your tank can be considered a drop leg.

To sum it up IME and IMO moister in airguns is way over blown. I have not seen in 25 years of using compressors for PCP's, damage or even corrosion in any of my guns be they aluminum tanks or steel.
That's really good to know. Makes me feel more confident using my Umarex ReadyAir and my GX pump CS-4. I've never really been 'worried' but often wondered if an air tube gets too much moisture/rust if it would explode! But using both of my pumps, I almost always get moisture out of the line when I open up the bleed valve.
 
If you put silicone in a system, it never completely disappears. Visual observation is not enough. I can tell you from 50 years of spraying paint and 20 years of wax companies putting silicone in their products it does not dissipate or wash off easily. It is a bane for the painting industry....

Indeed! It's great for coating and hard to fully remove.
 
Whenever i had to purge the plenum to reduce the reg setting, there's always some moisture being shoot out of the bottle connector, those inline filter from compressor can't seems to keep the moisture out completely.

Do you guys purge the plenum once awhile to get rid of the built up water from the system as part of the routine maintenance? i would imagine there's going to be some corrosion in the chamber and plenum from most PCP guns after a few years right?
Whatever moisture is in your air source, you need a compressor and filtration system that can remove it!
Any moisture left in your compressed air source can and will cause internal damage over time to your nice airgun
 
I'll further explain what cavedweller said in detail . . . .

In order to understand water in air, you have to first understand that water, which we all know is H2O, can exist in three phases: solid, liquid, and gas. We can pretty much ignore solid in our use, although for filtration purposes it is simply the frozen form of liquid. Gaseous water is individual H2O molecules, and liquid water is multiple molecules bound together via hydrogen bonds. This happens when the ability of air to “hold” any more individual water molecules is exceeded, and this limit is a function of temperature and pressure – it is really a limit on energy states of the water molecules. When this limit is exceeded, the water will begin to condense out into a liquid state.

When this condensation happens, it starts as tiny droplets of liquid water suspended in the air charge, much like a fog – it is liquid water at this point, but the droplets have not encountered enough other tiny droplets to become large enough to fall out of the air via gravity. That is why foggy conditions require relatively still air – as the air begins to move more, the droplets connect and fall out faster (or they contact something and stick to it). So if we basically have three different things to “trap" via filtration – liquid water that has fallen out of the air stream, small water droplets in the air stream, and the remaining gaseous water vapor that has not condensed out, but could condense out later if the temperature drops or if the pressure rises.

As for tools for active filtration, we have three types:
- Coalescing (remove contaminants by getting them to stick together (coalesce) and drop of out of the airflow - works great for removing water/oil mist in air flow, especially when combined with coolers to reduce the air charge temp and drive more condensation),
- Absorptive (uses physical media to directly capture contaminants, like the tampon type - requires the contaminants to be "big enough" to be captured, thus does not work for vaporized contaminants as it will not trap individual molecules of gaseous water, which are too small),
- Adsorptive (uses a media to adsorb contaminants directly, such as desiccant or charcoal, that capture gaseous contaminants directly via adsorption).

Do note that we can use chillers to further improve the process of coalescing and absorbing – reducing that air charge to at or below the temperature at which it will be used allows us do less drying with adsorptive (or desiccant based) filters, which is a good thing as it reduces either the load on the media or the amount of media we need to use to get the job done. In fact, if the air is chilled enough we don't even need to use any adsorptive filtration at all (spray painting uses this approach, but I would not count on it fully for our use). This is why I like the idea of putting a coalescing filter in a bucket of ice water for our use – chill the air further before it gets to a desiccant filter, which should be in the path.

Absorptive filters, like the cotton pads, simply do not pull vapor out of the air stream (notice that paper towels and napkins don’t get “wet” on humid days), but they will pull the drops suspended in air out of the air stream. This is a viable option as a step in the filtration process, and can even be used without a coalescing filter if the media is large enough, but it is not sufficient by itself if the air charge temperature is still above the final usage temperature, or if the pressure will continue to rise (as is the case in the early part of a fill) because these changes will lead to further condensation later.

Desiccants work by adsorbing individual water molecules into their structure. The media is typically beads, and at the molecular level these beads are quite porous. As air flows around them, the water vapor (the individual molecules of H2O) is drawn into the bead and then bonds to the chemical structure of the material. Such media will even pull water vapor out of ambient air, like silica beads in a safe – so it is important to make sure that the airflow path to the media be closed off when not in use, or the media will loose its ability to work faster than planned. Most desiccant materials get “overwhelmed” by liquid water as it is too much to handle at once. Such media can become overheated and even burst when it encounters liquid water (meaning the beads burst, not that the filter housing). This can result in throwing of fine fragments of abrasive dust into the air stream, which is not good for tank or Airgun valves.

Both absorptive and adsorptive filters are going to use media, and thus must be sized properly. Both will benefit from the use of a coalescing filter before them, as it will reduce the load on these filters – and having either a coalescing or absorptive filter in front of an adsorptive (desiccant) filter is important as they “do not play well” with liquid water at all.

A well-designed system for air guns will always use an adsorptive filter and should use at least consider one of the other two before the air charge passes through the desiccant to reduce the chance of liquid water hitting the beads.
 
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To complete the story in one place, I'll add this here as a follow up to my post above - this explains why we need to use active steps for moisture filtration with powered compressors . . . .

Very few people ever understand this topic properly – in truth it is fairly simple, but it is not common knowledge, and the typical ways of talking about it to “simplify” things makes it worse – specifically, the use of the term “relative humidity.”

Relative humidity (RH) is great for things like the weather report, where we want to compare the levels of humidity in air under different temperatures, but with basically constant pressures. In the realm of air compression, nothing it constant, so nothing is relative – we vary pressure greatly, and temperature too through the act of compression (don’t be fooled by the fact that our tanks start and eventually end at the same temperature – the air charge temperature during compression can probably approach 200F, depending on the compressor!).

We need to think and work in terms of absolute humidity, meaning the amount of water vapor contained in a standard unit of air, like 1 cubic meter at atmospheric pressure and a given “room temperature". To facilitate it I will list a table of values of the amount of water vapor in grams that can exist in 1 cubic meter of air at 68 degrees F:

  • 68F, atmospheric pressure: 17.5 grams per cubic meter (maximum amount, at 100% RH - likely less as would not fill guns with this air)
  • 68F, 125 psi, 1.8 grams
  • 68F, 2000 psi, 0.1 gram
  • 68F, 3000 psi, 0.09 gram
  • 68F, 4500 psi, 0.06 gram
So think of that first data point and put it into practice – if you have 68F air at a low 15% RH, then there will be about 2.6 grams of water per cubic meter of air. You can’t see it, but it is there. Compress it to 3000 psi, and about 2.5 grams of water will have to condense out to liquid, which conveniently equals 2.5 ccs of water (boy I wish we switched to the metric system back in the 70s . . . ). Even though we don’t shoot at only 125 psi, I did include the data for air at that pressure for two reasons: first to illustrate how the maximum carrying capacity for water vapor falls off rapidly, and second to show how much can be removed “naturally” by the first stage of compression for those using either a Shoebox or air booster pumps. Air is much easier to "dry" with desiccants at 125 psi than at ambient temperature (and easier again at higher pressures - but higher pressure is not needed for desiccants to work; it only impacts how much desiccant is needed based on the amount of vapor needed to be captured).

Here is the first thing to remember going forward: in almost every situation after that first data point in the list, the air is going to be at 100% humidity once the conditions stabilize. So you have to realize this fact: air coming out of a compressor is at 100% humidity (either relative or absolute for those conditions) regardless of what it was going into the compressor. This will be true pretty much anywhere on the planet, other than running a compressor outside in Antarctica in the middle of winter . . .

Now here is the where the second really important point comes in: change the temperature of the air charge and we change the amount of water vapor it can hold. And when we compress air it gets hotter - a lot hotter, especially with the small fast pumps like Yong Hengs (if the water cooled head is getting ~50C, the air that is heating that head will be much hotter than that). And that means that the air charge can hold more water vapor in it when it comes out of the compressor – water vapor that will condense out to liquid when the charge cools back to ambient. Here is data like above, but at higher temperature, like what might be coming out of a compressor:
  • 150F, 3000 psi, 0.9 gram
  • 200F, 3000 psi, 3 gram
and
  • 150F, 4500 psi, 0.6 gram
  • 200F, 4500 psi, 2 gram
Notice that at 150F the air is holding ten times the water vapor as at 68F (and even more if hotter than that). So that means that if we take “nice dry air” from our 15% RH room and compress it to 3000 psi for a direct fill with a Yong Heng, and assume the air charge outlet temp is 150F, we will get about 1.7 ccs of water to condense and vent out for every cubic meter we compress, but that still leaves 0.9 ccs to pass into the reservoir as vapor – of which about 0.8 ccs will condense out to water when the charge cools to ambient (Note: people often say “heat makes more water” but that is not correct – heat allows more vapor to pass and condense later). So without some form of active water vapor management, liquid water will end up in the tank or gun. Anything that cools the air charge down helps condense out more water, and that is why coalescing “filters” work well (if I were running one, I’d put it in a bucket of ice water to further cool down the air charge).

Obviously we don’t pump a whole cubic meter into our guns in one refill, but this illustrates what happens, and liquid water will build up over time. For most air rifles about 30 fills will use this amount of air, depending on reservoir size and start and end pressures. It can be what we pump into a SCBA tank on a refill though.

Also, this helps to illustrate why hand pumps – used properly – work so well. If we pump slowly, the air charge cools in the base of the pump before going into the gun. Add in frequent cool-down breaks for the pump – no more than about 50 pump strokes or so, then venting the line and letting it cool for 10-15 minutes – and the air charge stays cool enough that there really is nothing to condense out. Maybe a tiny amount, but it will likely flash to vapor again as the pressure in the gun drops (since lower pressure air can hold a bit more vapor). Done right, handpumping won’t lead to condensed water in guns, even in Hawaii😉.

Happy shooting (and pumping)!
 
Wow…..lots of worrying about moisture in your guns.
For what it’s worth, I use a GX cs4 with no filters of any kind except for what the compressor came with and only fill guns, no bottles.
I shoot different PCPs almost daily year round.
I disassemble my guns once every couple of years to clean and check for moisture.
I’ve never found any sign of moisture at all.
I do live in dry west Texas so that may have something to do with it.
Just saying
edit…..my fill table is about 3 feet above my compressor
 
It is hard to get your head around how much water is in the atmosphere. I started a maintenance job at a facility that had two 40hp Inger-sol Rand Reciprocating compressors. This ran through a water after cooler and then through several moisture traps. Head temperatures on the recips was 275 F. Every morning their start up procedure was to (drain the line) at each department. They would literally spray a high pressure water stream out of every hose much like a high pressure washer. Even after going through the moisture eliminators there was gallons of water not captured. The installation of a refrigerant air dryer along with better designed moisture traps eliminated this moisture excess to a point they could run efficiently without tearing up their equipment. But all moisture was not eliminated with this process. It took the elimination of the recips to decrease head temps, and moving on to rotary screws to minimize the moisture for sensitive equipment. In one case for plate making step and repeat machines we had to go to a dedicated system. The Yong Heng is a recip compressor and they run hot. Chilling the lines prior to the filter s is a good idea. We talk about RH measurements being a so-so measurement for our needs. Right, but dew point is not. It is the reason refrigerant dryers work so well.

My setup now is a Yong Heng feeding a coil of tubing cooled by a fan., to a drop leg to a filter sold for moisture removal for high pressure systems to a discharge line filled with some type of open celled foam. I still get occasion moisture into the guns. But again after , well, since 1999 when I first started into PCP's I have not had any corrosion issues. My first gun an AA 410E has a steel tube air storage. After reading some comments above I need to change the coil line cooling to chilled water as advised.
 
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To complete the story in one place, I'll add this here as a follow up to my post above - this explains why we need to use active steps for moisture filtration with powered compressors . . . .

Happy shooting (and pumping)!

Wow! This should be a sticky!

Yes, I screwed up with RH instead of AH. Thanks for the correction.

Thank you for the layman's explanation of water in our pumps and its effect in our systems.
 
Honestly guys, if your RH is in the 90's all the time, you need an actual refrigerated air dryer like we use on air controls industrially.

Tampons and gel crystals are just not going to cut it.
snarky remark, there is a certain politician that thinks it does. That out of the way, how about molecular sieves? I run a tampon (foam cylinder, into....nary a clue because I can't get it apart, then into a molecular sieve. But I'm in a relatively low/mid humidity area about 46% currently.
 
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This is always a subject you’ll get alot of different opinions on. So many recommend to put silicon oil to the check valve, etc. I do it occasionally myself to. Probably continue to do it.

Here’s something I found really interesting/ weird. I got an older Logun and asked two very well respected UK Airgun Smiths what to do.(Not some random newbies either) Both said absolutely NO Silicon oil. One guy literally wrote “DO NOT OIL PORT!!” As his first sentence back to me haha.

A little off the subject of moisture and air but I couldn’t believe it. Adding silicone oil is like the standard here in the US. I should have asked why. Sounded like they just use grease. The one gentleman worked for webley so probably worked on thousands of airguns.

Happy Shooting Fellas
Rob
After almost destroying the tank threads on one of my Mavericks with Silicon oil, it reacted badly with the anodizing, I keep the stuff far away from my guns. In my limited experience but with some testing, a HIGH flashpoint oil, i.e. synthetic will not diesel. I've tried and have had zero success in it dieseling or even flashing. Testing was done by coating the back of pellets with Mobil 1 and firing them with a FX Chronograph to measure any increase in speeds. Differing experiences welcome.