Dude, that is a really a good idea!
Using a blank template to put your distance marks on it, and then adding numbers to the tape in Photoshop, or Paint..net! Brilliant!
Thanks,
Kmd
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MTC Viper Pro- Range Tape
- Thread starter LeadFinger
- Start date
Using a blank template to put your distance marks on it, and then adding numbers to the tape in Photoshop, or Paint..net! Brilliant!
Thanks,
Kmd
Thanks. Frustration already has me contemplating doing the same thing.
MTC is "For shooters, by shooters". So, it surprises me that more shooters are not bringing this issue up. From what I can tell, I'm punching in the numbers correctly.
I never changed any of the settings on chairgun. So, I would think that if I punch in the same exact numbers, I would get the same result.
The VRF is confusing to me too. It almost seems as if they decided to use something that no one else is really using just to be different?
My last experiment, before getting ready for my shift, was to force the chairgun MOA numbers into the tape calculator and print it as if chairgun designed the poi's. Further testing is required before I can say if it did, in fact, work or not. Initial (late night) testing was looking good however.
Tom
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"MTC is “For shooters, by shooters”. So, it surprises me that more shooters are not bringing this issue up"
Maybe not too many people own the MTC Viper Pro? I mean, you know how that goes.
100 people bought one.
80 did figure out how to use the tape and are happy.
15 did not figure out how to make a the tape and are not happy.
13 of those are not even aware of AGN,
And of the remaining two, 1 decided to start a thread about it, which is YOU! LOL.
Who knows what the thoughts were behind using VRF?
Hope your "experiment" works out. Keep us posted.
Kmd
Maybe not too many people own the MTC Viper Pro? I mean, you know how that goes.
100 people bought one.
80 did figure out how to use the tape and are happy.
15 did not figure out how to make a the tape and are not happy.
13 of those are not even aware of AGN,
And of the remaining two, 1 decided to start a thread about it, which is YOU! LOL.
Who knows what the thoughts were behind using VRF?
Hope your "experiment" works out. Keep us posted.
Kmd
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"Tom...if your stuck give Jeff at MTC optics US a call, I think it's trenier outdoors I gav him all my info and he send me a tape via PDF...it was pretty much bang on
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LOL!!
Omg I was so confused for days by this whole thing.
You know, I've made several tapes by now- different font sizes, velocities, calibers. A couple have been dead-on until I get up to 120 yards, then it's maybe 6" off. I haven't had the best conditions yet either (zero wind, tons of patience)
What I was planning on doing is to get it down completely, and make up a couple templates (a .30 cal 44.75gr @860fps & a .25 cal 33.95gr @860fps) to give to you guys to download and print. I do have the same Photoshop template as Wadcutter with multiple locked layers of hashmarks with their corresponding yardage that I can slide around to match the tape MTC's calculator comes up with. I just haven't really quite got it down yet. (I'm also throwing a barrel swap into the mix, which I think gives me a little nausea.)
And, as I mentioned in the video, I'm still pretty new at this. I'm really trying to utilize this forum the best I can and not ask questions that have already been answered.
I think I'm calling them today too. Thanks for all your feedback guys!
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Jeff has been very helpful. He made a tape for me using a few different programs. I had a chance to try the final one he made, which he thought would be the most accurate. Fail. My shot at 75 yards hit just past the 60 yard tape mark. 100 yards hit at about 85 yards on the tape. But, the 50 yards zero was dead on... lol!
I marked out 75 yards down my driveway at every 5 yards. I'll tackle the big job of doing this manually later on in the week.
I also sent him a pretty big list of improvements that could be made to this design. Here's some of them...
- Yardage number lines from top to bottom. Maybe make "0" a fatter line or a different color? Then you can...
- Put the numbers in the center of the tape, unless they start to overlap.
- The program allows you to 15 calculated poi's. However, it will only allow this to be automatically done using start distance, and yardage increments. That means if I want 25,50,75, and 100. I have to go back and forth, jot down the info for the ranges I'm seeking, and then edit the slots. It would be nice to have a few (5 maybe) slots that allow the user to type in the yardage and it auto generates the MOA and clicks.
- I was going to say, more poi slots. But, I think the above suggestion would alleviate the need.
- If possible, lose the VRF entirely. The vast majority of shooters I know have not used this and are confused by it. In my case, it seems like it might be adding to my lack of success.
- The magnifier is a neat addition tot he scope. But, there's plenty of room on the focus knob to make the numbers larger and no reason, I can think of, to not make them larger.
- Additionally (re: the above suggestion), add a "-" to the numbers. So, "50" becomes "50-"
- Larger setscrews
- Make the hex center for the setscrews much deeper. This will allow better engagement with the tiny hex key and minimize risk of stripping.
The lines from top to bottom was a big one, IMO, that should be easy for them to do. If you put the tape on a little high or a little low, you lose the mark. You can still see the numbers but, your guessing as to the precise location of the line. And, when your shooting a .22 pellet @ 100 yards, tiny things like that add up to missed shots.
What do you guys think? Do you agree with some/all of these suggestions?
Tom
I marked out 75 yards down my driveway at every 5 yards. I'll tackle the big job of doing this manually later on in the week.
I also sent him a pretty big list of improvements that could be made to this design. Here's some of them...
- Yardage number lines from top to bottom. Maybe make "0" a fatter line or a different color? Then you can...
- Put the numbers in the center of the tape, unless they start to overlap.
- The program allows you to 15 calculated poi's. However, it will only allow this to be automatically done using start distance, and yardage increments. That means if I want 25,50,75, and 100. I have to go back and forth, jot down the info for the ranges I'm seeking, and then edit the slots. It would be nice to have a few (5 maybe) slots that allow the user to type in the yardage and it auto generates the MOA and clicks.
- I was going to say, more poi slots. But, I think the above suggestion would alleviate the need.
- If possible, lose the VRF entirely. The vast majority of shooters I know have not used this and are confused by it. In my case, it seems like it might be adding to my lack of success.
- The magnifier is a neat addition tot he scope. But, there's plenty of room on the focus knob to make the numbers larger and no reason, I can think of, to not make them larger.
- Additionally (re: the above suggestion), add a "-" to the numbers. So, "50" becomes "50-"
- Larger setscrews
- Make the hex center for the setscrews much deeper. This will allow better engagement with the tiny hex key and minimize risk of stripping.
The lines from top to bottom was a big one, IMO, that should be easy for them to do. If you put the tape on a little high or a little low, you lose the mark. You can still see the numbers but, your guessing as to the precise location of the line. And, when your shooting a .22 pellet @ 100 yards, tiny things like that add up to missed shots.
What do you guys think? Do you agree with some/all of these suggestions?
Tom
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Update:Manually shooting from 10-75 yards (as level as I can get it), the screen shot is what I came up with. I did not use the VRF. I did not force chair gun info into the program in order to alter the poi's either. I counted clicks for each range. Then, I entered the clicks into the MTC program in order to force it to put the numbers where my rifle wanted them.
I also Recalculated my muzzle velocity, BC, and scope height.
Scope height = 63.65
MV = 900.25 av
@5 yards = 882.6 av
@65 yards = 741.5 av
I'm sorry to say that I have given up on using the MTC tape calculator. I'd really like to experience it working for me someday and get a more precise location for my poi's. I'm still getting different numbers for my BC's and different values for my poi's in moa when comparing MTC's calculator to Chairgun. I did plug the Chairgun "poi (MoA)" numbers into the MTC chart but, it made no difference on the tape. Only changing the "clicks" values changed the locations.
Tom
I also Recalculated my muzzle velocity, BC, and scope height.
Scope height = 63.65
MV = 900.25 av
@5 yards = 882.6 av
@65 yards = 741.5 av
I'm sorry to say that I have given up on using the MTC tape calculator. I'd really like to experience it working for me someday and get a more precise location for my poi's. I'm still getting different numbers for my BC's and different values for my poi's in moa when comparing MTC's calculator to Chairgun. I did plug the Chairgun "poi (MoA)" numbers into the MTC chart but, it made no difference on the tape. Only changing the "clicks" values changed the locations.
Tom
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Tom,
I know where you are coming from... You bought something and you want it to work as advertised. I get that. I also get that you are the type of person that needs to make it work, and just doesn't give up. And I respect that... But, at the end of the day, the feature that makes the viper pro "special", is the turret system. The ability to "dial in" your distance by using numbers in meters, instead of counting clicks, or using holdover. It's that, and not the app.
At least that is how I look at it.
That said, forget the app. Just shoot, mark the tape, and you're done. Who cares how the numbers look like!? Get yourself a stencil ruler (or whatever that thing is called). Follow my instruction on how to make your own tape. (I know, the video sucks). Take the turret ring to someone that does ring engravings, and have him dremel your numbers in.
Forget the app.
thanks,
Kmd
I know where you are coming from... You bought something and you want it to work as advertised. I get that. I also get that you are the type of person that needs to make it work, and just doesn't give up. And I respect that... But, at the end of the day, the feature that makes the viper pro "special", is the turret system. The ability to "dial in" your distance by using numbers in meters, instead of counting clicks, or using holdover. It's that, and not the app.
At least that is how I look at it.
That said, forget the app. Just shoot, mark the tape, and you're done. Who cares how the numbers look like!? Get yourself a stencil ruler (or whatever that thing is called). Follow my instruction on how to make your own tape. (I know, the video sucks). Take the turret ring to someone that does ring engravings, and have him dremel your numbers in.
Forget the app.
thanks,
Kmd
Upvote 0
KMD,
Right! And, I love the turret feature. Really, that's the whole reason I bought the scope. And... don't get me wrong, I'm not going to give up on the scope because the silly calculator doesn't work. It's starting to coming together now that I've bypassed the system that was designed for it. But, I want to help the manufacturer to fix the issue and I also want potential buyers that are thinking about buying this to know they may not be able to count on the numbers they get form the calcs. If the manufacturer entertains the suggestions I made, and comes out with a "Gen II", I'll be a buyer!
I'd like to use your system for marking the tape but, I don't have a photoshop (that I know of) on my Macbook Pro. I can still do something close with the pages program but, it's very labor intensive and does not put out the effect I'm after. So, I'm just forcing the MTC program to do what I want. I figured out how to extend my range and I'm actually on my way out to shoot the 80-100 yards. Wish me luck!
Tom
Right! And, I love the turret feature. Really, that's the whole reason I bought the scope. And... don't get me wrong, I'm not going to give up on the scope because the silly calculator doesn't work. It's starting to coming together now that I've bypassed the system that was designed for it. But, I want to help the manufacturer to fix the issue and I also want potential buyers that are thinking about buying this to know they may not be able to count on the numbers they get form the calcs. If the manufacturer entertains the suggestions I made, and comes out with a "Gen II", I'll be a buyer!
I'd like to use your system for marking the tape but, I don't have a photoshop (that I know of) on my Macbook Pro. I can still do something close with the pages program but, it's very labor intensive and does not put out the effect I'm after. So, I'm just forcing the MTC program to do what I want. I figured out how to extend my range and I'm actually on my way out to shoot the 80-100 yards. Wish me luck!
Tom
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Tom,"Tominco"KMD,
Right! And, I love the turret feature. Really, that's the whole reason I bought the scope. And... don't get me wrong, I'm not going to give up on the scope because the silly calculator doesn't work. It's starting to coming together now that I've bypassed the system that was designed for it. But, I want to help the manufacturer to fix the issue and I also want potential buyers that are thinking about buying this to know they may not be able to count on the numbers they get form the calcs. If the manufacturer entertains the suggestions I made, and comes out with a "Gen II", I'll be a buyer!
I'd like to use your system for marking the tape but, I don't have a photoshop (that I know of) on my Macbook Pro. I can still do something close with the pages program but, it's very labor intensive and does not put out the effect I'm after. So, I'm just forcing the MTC program to do what I want. I figured out how to extend my range and I'm actually on my way out to shoot the 80-100 yards. Wish me luck!
Tom
Well said. Not only that, but I also agree 100% Another positive accuracy point from me! : )
thanks,
Kmd
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EDIT: I am out of the country for a while. Once I get back, I am going to try something new... I am going to make a plastic ''ring'', or short pipe, that mounts on to the outside of the turret. I then put the ranges on there. Even better, I am going to see if some jeweler can engrave it on the ring!? That way I can change the ''ring'' all the time without having to unscrew those tiny set screws. : )
Kmd
Kmd
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That silly MoA collar was throwing me off too! It's still sitting on the original insert. So, it was throwing off my clicks...
My real world shooting had me mark 80 yards at 28 clicks, and 90 yards at 41 clicks. This put my lines at 7.25 and 10.75 on the tape, respectively. But, if I type in 28 clicks into the program, it puts my line at 7 and 41 clicks ends up at 10.25. Realizing this, I went back and figured out that 28 real world clicks actually needs to be entered as 29 on the program and 41 needs to be entered as 43. 70 is 14 vs 15.
So, if you don't use the single MoA collar that they sent you, you'll have to fiddle with the numbers a bit more.
Meh... We'll figure it out eventually.
Travel safe! Thanks for the +!!
Tom
My real world shooting had me mark 80 yards at 28 clicks, and 90 yards at 41 clicks. This put my lines at 7.25 and 10.75 on the tape, respectively. But, if I type in 28 clicks into the program, it puts my line at 7 and 41 clicks ends up at 10.25. Realizing this, I went back and figured out that 28 real world clicks actually needs to be entered as 29 on the program and 41 needs to be entered as 43. 70 is 14 vs 15.
So, if you don't use the single MoA collar that they sent you, you'll have to fiddle with the numbers a bit more.
Meh... We'll figure it out eventually.
Travel safe! Thanks for the +!!
Tom
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Hey all I've been out of town as well, Tom how's it working out??
Yeah I took that MOA collar off mine, it will throw the clicks off.
Tom, just for poops and giggles, can I make a tape for you to see if it works? Unless you've got it down now, and/or you are over it by now...
What's your BC and weight for your pellet? I have this info already from your previous post:
Scope height = 63.65
MV = 900.25 av
@5 yards = 882.6 av
@65 yards = 741.5 av
I'm just curious if the tape I come up with will match and line up with the one u posted above.
Yeah I took that MOA collar off mine, it will throw the clicks off.
Tom, just for poops and giggles, can I make a tape for you to see if it works? Unless you've got it down now, and/or you are over it by now...
What's your BC and weight for your pellet? I have this info already from your previous post:
Scope height = 63.65
MV = 900.25 av
@5 yards = 882.6 av
@65 yards = 741.5 av
I'm just curious if the tape I come up with will match and line up with the one u posted above.
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I got in a car wreck. A motorcyclist almost used my car to kill himself. We're both ok. But, I'm a bit pre-occupied with sorting out getting my car repaired lately.
That being said... Having the collar off the wheel changes the diameter of the wheel and that's what throws the clicks off. Is that what your saying as well? That's what I have experienced and what the MTC rep told me as well. It would be weird if you were experiencing the opposite.
That's very kind of you to offer, thank you! If you'd like to make a tape as an experiment, feel free. I spent 1/2 a day working this out manually and now have a wheel for both pellet weights. It gets a little tedious sighting in 38 times (10-100y, every 5y, 2 different pellet weights). And, since I had everything set up already, I ran my FX 400 through the paces as well. So, I sighted in 57 times that day. You might say I'm a bit "over it" for a while. lol
It still irks me that the program doesn't work. For example: I shouldn't have to ask this, - Which BC would you like? Chairgun, or MTC? They give me different results using the same information.
Pellet = 25.39gr
MTC BC = 0.0419
Chair gun BC = 0.0452
It's math... 1+1=2 and nothing else, ever. So, why the difference? If I'm missing something, I'd sure like to know.
The tape I posted above is for use without the collar and was created by manually entering the clicks until they matched up with what I marked out at the range. Since the collar was not installed I could not simply count the clicks and enter them. I had to count the MOA markings on the tape and then add or subtract my click entries until the line was where I needed it to be. If you get close to what I've got posted, then you might be on the right track. If your way off... Well, thanks for the effort just the same! lol
Tom
That being said... Having the collar off the wheel changes the diameter of the wheel and that's what throws the clicks off. Is that what your saying as well? That's what I have experienced and what the MTC rep told me as well. It would be weird if you were experiencing the opposite.
That's very kind of you to offer, thank you! If you'd like to make a tape as an experiment, feel free. I spent 1/2 a day working this out manually and now have a wheel for both pellet weights. It gets a little tedious sighting in 38 times (10-100y, every 5y, 2 different pellet weights). And, since I had everything set up already, I ran my FX 400 through the paces as well. So, I sighted in 57 times that day. You might say I'm a bit "over it" for a while. lol
It still irks me that the program doesn't work. For example: I shouldn't have to ask this, - Which BC would you like? Chairgun, or MTC? They give me different results using the same information.
Pellet = 25.39gr
MTC BC = 0.0419
Chair gun BC = 0.0452
It's math... 1+1=2 and nothing else, ever. So, why the difference? If I'm missing something, I'd sure like to know.
The tape I posted above is for use without the collar and was created by manually entering the clicks until they matched up with what I marked out at the range. Since the collar was not installed I could not simply count the clicks and enter them. I had to count the MOA markings on the tape and then add or subtract my click entries until the line was where I needed it to be. If you get close to what I've got posted, then you might be on the right track. If your way off... Well, thanks for the effort just the same! lol
Tom
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Dude!
Car + motorcycle?! Sounds like you both lucked out, wow. Sorry to hear about that.
Yeah that collar throws it off.
At first I was using the second insert they included (without a collar) and the tape fit perfectly. But when I tried it over the one with the collar it left a gap... so I pried it off. Little thing was glued on there pretty good.
The BC, I'm guessing Chairgun's result. Me still being relatively new at this, I googled the BC for my pellet. I came across a few threads and everybody had the same number. It seems Chairgun is pretty standard though? Also I found a few things like this nicely compiled. Again, maybe I'm just having some super dumb luck here man.
Wait, .22 cal right? What brand?
I'll give it a shot. Maybe one day if your bored and dare to pull that perfectly seated turret out you can try it...
Oh and one thing (and you might know this already) the tape you have posted up there isn't the one I print. When I clicked the "Print to PDF" button it takes me to a new page with several tapes, if I print those, they are too short. They are not the right size.
However... if I save, print and cut out the yellow tapes at the bottom of this page, they fit perfectly. That's either their bad, or I have a funky web browser and/or printer combo. But, I'm pretty sure they're giving 2 tape templates with different lengths. That's the whole reason I superimposed one over the other; the right calculations on one tape, over the right length of another.
Craziness... I forgot to tell them that when I wrote them a little while back.
Car + motorcycle?! Sounds like you both lucked out, wow. Sorry to hear about that.
Yeah that collar throws it off.
At first I was using the second insert they included (without a collar) and the tape fit perfectly. But when I tried it over the one with the collar it left a gap... so I pried it off. Little thing was glued on there pretty good.
The BC, I'm guessing Chairgun's result. Me still being relatively new at this, I googled the BC for my pellet. I came across a few threads and everybody had the same number. It seems Chairgun is pretty standard though? Also I found a few things like this nicely compiled. Again, maybe I'm just having some super dumb luck here man.
Wait, .22 cal right? What brand?
I'll give it a shot. Maybe one day if your bored and dare to pull that perfectly seated turret out you can try it...
Oh and one thing (and you might know this already) the tape you have posted up there isn't the one I print. When I clicked the "Print to PDF" button it takes me to a new page with several tapes, if I print those, they are too short. They are not the right size.
However... if I save, print and cut out the yellow tapes at the bottom of this page, they fit perfectly. That's either their bad, or I have a funky web browser and/or printer combo. But, I'm pretty sure they're giving 2 tape templates with different lengths. That's the whole reason I superimposed one over the other; the right calculations on one tape, over the right length of another.
Craziness... I forgot to tell them that when I wrote them a little while back.
Upvote 0
Thanks. It sucks because I really liked the car I was driving. But, he was able to walk away because I was paying attention and preparing for the dumb move even before he made the dumb move.
.25 cal JSB's
It seems as though the yellow tape is for people like you who have access to photoshop and can manipulate the image.
I wish I could do it because it looks so much better than the B&W. It also has longer lines and is able to fit more information in a clean manner.
Tom
.25 cal JSB's
It seems as though the yellow tape is for people like you who have access to photoshop and can manipulate the image.
I wish I could do it because it looks so much better than the B&W. It also has longer lines and is able to fit more information in a clean manner.
Tom
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What numbers did you type into the MTC calculator for your range tape? This is what I came up with:
On my tape I rounded two numbers off when I entered them into the calculator (which sounds wrong now that I say it)-- 900 instead of 900.25 and .97 instead of .9728
which gave more of a difference than I thought it would:
These are both pretty far off from yours...jeeze... I don't know bro I'm losing my mind a bit.
On my tape I rounded two numbers off when I entered them into the calculator (which sounds wrong now that I say it)-- 900 instead of 900.25 and .97 instead of .9728
which gave more of a difference than I thought it would:
These are both pretty far off from yours...jeeze... I don't know bro I'm losing my mind a bit.
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I didn't use the calculator part at all. Like you, I gave up when I reached a certain point of frustration.
I manually altered the click entries until they matched up with the tape I marked at the range. It's the only way I have found that the system works.
You can enter whatever you want in the distance column. What you enter is what you'll see for numbers, but it'll make no difference in reference to the location of those numbers on the tape.
You can enter whatever you want in the MOA column, it makes no difference at all to the tape.
The numbers you enter in the Clicks column dictate exactly where each line is generated.
I appreciate you trying to help out. I plan on making a video about the scope, it's features, my experiences, and how-to in the near future. Maybe after I get the ball rolling with the car repairs. Ugh!
Tom
I manually altered the click entries until they matched up with the tape I marked at the range. It's the only way I have found that the system works.
You can enter whatever you want in the distance column. What you enter is what you'll see for numbers, but it'll make no difference in reference to the location of those numbers on the tape.
You can enter whatever you want in the MOA column, it makes no difference at all to the tape.
The numbers you enter in the Clicks column dictate exactly where each line is generated.
I appreciate you trying to help out. I plan on making a video about the scope, it's features, my experiences, and how-to in the near future. Maybe after I get the ball rolling with the car repairs. Ugh!
Tom
Upvote 0