There are no rest restrictions in any of the N50 air classes...because that would be dumb for precision BR.
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Mythbusting Precision BR
- Thread starter thomasair
- Start date
If you cannot win in precision BR...either your rifle is not accurate enough, or you are not good enough at reading the wind....or a combination of both.
The game is as simple as it gets.
The game is as simple as it gets.
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But is not touching an air rifle when it fires (or any gun, for that matter) still shooting? It's more like firing artillery at that point. I guess it would then be fair to call it an artillery competition. So, it would still be a competition. But something altogether different from what most people think of as shooting
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It is most certainly shooting if you understand what happens to a bullet in the wind. If you think it just goes to the center as long as that is where you point the rifle....then there is no way of explaining the challenge to you. Knowing where to hold to make the bullet drift into the center from looking at some wind flags is a skill that is extremely hard to come by.
Even shooting indoors is a huge challenge. Learning to manage your equipment well enough to make 75 perfect shots is tremendously difficult. Guys are over the moon on this forum when they shoot a 1 moa group once in a while. To be competitive in precision BR in the pro class you will have to shoot 3/8 moa or better for 75 shots in a row. Hopefully you don't think that putting a 3 moa rifle in a rest will turn it into a 1/2 moa rifle. It will still be a 3 moa rifle....but now you can hold it still.
Mike
Even shooting indoors is a huge challenge. Learning to manage your equipment well enough to make 75 perfect shots is tremendously difficult. Guys are over the moon on this forum when they shoot a 1 moa group once in a while. To be competitive in precision BR in the pro class you will have to shoot 3/8 moa or better for 75 shots in a row. Hopefully you don't think that putting a 3 moa rifle in a rest will turn it into a 1/2 moa rifle. It will still be a 3 moa rifle....but now you can hold it still.
Mike
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And that eliminates an important skill to be mastered in the discipline of shooting...holding an accurate shot through the aiming and firing process. A shooter not using a mechanical rest that isolates the rifle from human interaction still has to use the most accurate rifle they can find and deal with the wind to make the shot.
I can see why a rifle manufacturer would want to use a mechanical rest to eliminate human aiming error when trying to maximize the accuracy of a rifle. But then putting that rifle in the hands of a shooter not using a mechanical rest makes the challenge of a 250 25X even greater.
N50 could have 2 pellet classes...
Unlimited Class (allowing mechanical rests that isolate a pellet propulsion device from human contact, remote firing mechanisms, etc).
Rifle Class (as you described - disallowing mechanical rests, remote triggers, require the shooter to make cheek, shoulder, and hand contact with the gun). A more traditional shooting discipline that would attract more shooters. And those shooters would still have to deal with the wind just like the Unlimited class shooters would. But they would have the added challenge of holding an accurate shot. Yes, their scores would be lower than in the Unlimited class, but they would be facing a more difficult challenge.
If I could afford it, and I was shooting in the N50 Rifle class, I would still want a Thomas rifle, but with a traditional rifle stock, as I would want the most accurate rifle I could find
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With NRL22 and PRS competitions there is absolutely no need for a rifle class in N50.And that eliminates an important skill to be mastered in the discipline of shooting...holding an accurate shot through the aiming and firing process. A shooter not using a mechanical rest that isolates the rifle from human interaction still has to use the most accurate rifle they can find and deal with the wind to make the shot.
I can see why a rifle manufacturer would want to use a mechanical rest to eliminate human aiming error when trying to maximize the accuracy of a rifle. But then putting that rifle in the hands of a shooter not using a mechanical rest makes the challenge of a 250 25X even greater.
N50 could have 2 pellet classes...
Unlimited Class (allowing mechanical rests that isolate a pellet propulsion device from human contact, remote firing mechanisms, etc).
Rifle Class (as you described - disallowing mechanical rests, remote triggers, require the shooter to make cheek, shoulder, and hand contact with the gun). A more traditional shooting discipline that would attract more shooters. And those shooters would still have to deal with the wind just like the Unlimited class shooters would. But they would have the added challenge of holding an accurate shot. Yes, their scores would be lower than in the Unlimited class, but they would be facing a more difficult challenge.
If I could afford it, and I was shooting in the N50 Rifle class, I would still want a Thomas rifle, but with a traditional rifle stock, as I would want the most accurate rifle I could find
And of course there is 10 Meter Precision Air Rifle and that competition has a Sporter Class with very accurate rifles well with in your price range.
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Holding the rifle still is intentionally not a component of precision Benchrest.. That's what the bench and the rest are for. The game is about making the most accurate rifle, keeping it shooting at the highest level, then reading the wind and making the appropriate hold off to get the bullet in the middle. It's deceptively difficult.
As has already been stated, new precision BR shooters have a blast shooting at a low level as long as everyone in their shooting group is at that same level. The train comes off the tracks the day that someone who's proficient at the game shows up and clobbers them. The very game that everyone was enjoying and praising...now becomes stupid and all the rules need to be changed. It's like a broken record.
The only way to put a cap on rifle accuracy is to have no cap. It's impossible to make a fair game for guys that want to shoot off the shelf rifles. If you sample 100 stock rifles, a couple of them will be much more accurate than the rest, and a couple will be absolutely horrible... with the bulk of them just being mid level. Those that have the ability to scour the planet for the most accurate factory rifle will win....and now you're back to the same crying about fair that you had before you decided to fix the game. It's been done to death with the same result every time.
The game is about ultimate rifle accuracy first. After that requirement is met...then it comes down to maintaining the rifle and wind reading. It's very common for shooters to have the equipment and still come up way short.
If you want to learn basic rifle handling skills...Precision BR is not the place.
Mike
As has already been stated, new precision BR shooters have a blast shooting at a low level as long as everyone in their shooting group is at that same level. The train comes off the tracks the day that someone who's proficient at the game shows up and clobbers them. The very game that everyone was enjoying and praising...now becomes stupid and all the rules need to be changed. It's like a broken record.
The only way to put a cap on rifle accuracy is to have no cap. It's impossible to make a fair game for guys that want to shoot off the shelf rifles. If you sample 100 stock rifles, a couple of them will be much more accurate than the rest, and a couple will be absolutely horrible... with the bulk of them just being mid level. Those that have the ability to scour the planet for the most accurate factory rifle will win....and now you're back to the same crying about fair that you had before you decided to fix the game. It's been done to death with the same result every time.
The game is about ultimate rifle accuracy first. After that requirement is met...then it comes down to maintaining the rifle and wind reading. It's very common for shooters to have the equipment and still come up way short.
If you want to learn basic rifle handling skills...Precision BR is not the place.
Mike
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Sounds to me like you are comparing Precision BR to 3 Position or off hand shooting. Precision BR is no comparison to those other shooting disciplines.
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But don’t call it benchrest. Pretendrest is not taken
The name of this discipline is “Benchrest”. It’s actually named exactly what it is. AGN provides other sandboxes to play in.
Benchrest is NOT where you will find “equity of outcome”; it’s finding the best, the best in you, the best in equipment.
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Just having a rest doesn't mean you automatically shoot or know shot placement any better before.
Holding still doesn't mean you are hitting in the crosshairs or holdover point
Seems simple to just place a rifle on a rest and shoot, but to get the most accuracy out of what you got is an endless quest
I never knew that where you place a rifle on the rest effected the accuracy...something new i learned
bulletin.accurateshooter.com
There also seems to be a lot of products that promise improvement, but are just snake-oils. Navigating through it all can be very difficult for a new person.
I am appreciative that someone like Mike @thomasair tells you the facts from experience.
Some of what he says is not an easy swallow, but it doesn't make it false.
Mike
Holding still doesn't mean you are hitting in the crosshairs or holdover point
Seems simple to just place a rifle on a rest and shoot, but to get the most accuracy out of what you got is an endless quest
I never knew that where you place a rifle on the rest effected the accuracy...something new i learned
Experiment with Rifle Position on Rest and Bags for Best Accuracy « Daily Bulletin
To get the best accuracy out of any benchrest rifle, you need to find the optimal position of front rest and rear bag. The important point to remember is that each rig is different.
There also seems to be a lot of products that promise improvement, but are just snake-oils. Navigating through it all can be very difficult for a new person.
I am appreciative that someone like Mike @thomasair tells you the facts from experience.
Some of what he says is not an easy swallow, but it doesn't make it false.
Mike
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Do either of those have a 50 yard (meter) air rifle pellet class that does not allow mechanical rests, remote triggers, etc?
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Is there a sandbox with a 50 yard (meter) air rifle pellet class that does not allow mechanical rests, remote triggers, etc? If not, N50 should start one!
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This is a frigging awesome idea!!!!!!! Pre Charged Pneumatic Artillary.But is not touching an air rifle when it fires (or any gun, for that matter) still shooting? It's more like firing artillery at that point. I guess it would then be fair to call it an artillery competition. So, it would still be a competition. But something altogether different from what most people think of as shooting
The competition would be both high angle and low angle indirect fire at 100 yards. Angle of fire would be forced by the height and location of a movable wall.
You would be timed on how long it took you to set up your aiming circle oriented to magnetic north, then how long it took to orient it to grid north and total time to first round out.
You would be given 20 minutes from first round out for 25 shots total and scored by the number direct hits.
First relay would be low angle indirect fire, second relay would be high angle.
Tie breakers would be direct fire.
This airgun division would be called STEEL RAIN.
F×@K_"G AAAAAA.
@thomasair I want a quote on a Thomas Pneumatic Artillery Piece with cradle that will elevate the muzzle from 0° to 75° vertical in 0.001 degree increments and rotate the barrel 45 degrees from 0 in same increments.
@bearbar I need a quote on a scaled down Artillery Aiming Circle good from 50 to 200 yards!
@dgeesaman I need you to come up with the ballistics information and instruments needed for this orgasm to work!
We could use remote cameras as our forward observers relayed back to a flat screen on which we have a triangulation grid for impact adjustment!!!!!
Damn what a setup. Imagine Bearbar's Thomas Railgun (The Death Star) set up next to my Thomas Artillery Piece (The Terminator).
Better than p□rn.
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But they haven't been clobbered, as a mechanical rest takes the potential for human error in aiming during the shot out of the equation. It is a different game. That is why there is an opportunity for an additional class in N50...a "Rifle" class. Shooting off bags sitting on a bench from a sitting position.
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Maybe other pellet organizations will make a place for others that cannot accept the rules.
N50 rules. https://www.national50.net/rules
N50 rules. https://www.national50.net/rules
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How about the ones that are having difficulty understanding or are here just to troll, I have an idea why don't you start an organization called the touchy feely club. You can feel good about touching you rifle and then feel good how crappy your scores are.
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