But then we have this recent USARB announcement:
“…2nd, We will be removing the USA Sportsmen's class for lack of participation….”
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Mythbusting Precision BR
- Thread starter thomasair
- Start date
“…2nd, We will be removing the USA Sportsmen's class for lack of participation….”
Simple logic plus common sense suggest, if you have not participated in any form of BR your justifications do not mean much you simply do not understand.
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Troy...I assumed you would see the smiley after my statement and see I was kidding.
Just about any scope around 30 power or over is good enough for 50y BR as long as it's in good working order. I have a couple s2s....and although I prefer to look through my better scopes...the s2 doesn't cost any points.
Scott....yes, it's hard to believe that with the incredibly outcry for a budget class shot off bags and bipods that the USARB sportsman class didn't take off.
Maybe 7 years earlier the USARB also tried a different budget type class and nobody shot that either.
Mike
Just about any scope around 30 power or over is good enough for 50y BR as long as it's in good working order. I have a couple s2s....and although I prefer to look through my better scopes...the s2 doesn't cost any points.
Scott....yes, it's hard to believe that with the incredibly outcry for a budget class shot off bags and bipods that the USARB sportsman class didn't take off.
Maybe 7 years earlier the USARB also tried a different budget type class and nobody shot that either.
Mike
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No. I will continue to express my opinion. Don’t like it? The ignore button will solve all of your problems. Have a great day!
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If N50 hands out trophies to every shooter would we be having this conversation? Justaguy said it perfectly, it’s all about "FEELINGS"…….
We are seeing the kids of helicopter parents come into the sport and not wanting to play by the rules and unfortunately when you play with the big dogs, you have two options. Learn from people who are better than you and improve your skill set and equipment or you can take your ball and go back home to mommy and daddy’s house.
I’m still in the learning phase and shooting with people that are better than me.
We are seeing the kids of helicopter parents come into the sport and not wanting to play by the rules and unfortunately when you play with the big dogs, you have two options. Learn from people who are better than you and improve your skill set and equipment or you can take your ball and go back home to mommy and daddy’s house.
I’m still in the learning phase and shooting with people that are better than me.
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Actions speak louder than words but results scream and your results in N50 scream that you are irrelevant so no reason to hit the ignore button for someone who is already self neutered.
I don't mind your opinion BUT my opinion, unlike yours, is that N50 does NOT need a "Loser Class".
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Justaguy. Your opinions are irrelevant; a person cannot experience a "word" that word being Benchrest.
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What's wrong darling..... didn't shoot well?
No.
But you were shooting your JR Langley-Verhagen smallbore.....
you absolutely love shooting that gun.
Well baby......not only was I dead last in Pro Class, I got spanked by some Sportsman Class powder burners and some @#$%^ %●□{}♤◇ pellet pukers.
Oh.......
I'll tell you what baby, I couldn't even win the Loser's Class if N50 had one!!!!! I look in the mirror and all I see is a pot bellied balding old guy that shoots for s%#t.
Well darling....smile..... you still have your two most redeeming qualities !
Thanks baby, I am so in need of a morale boost right now.......so tell me....what are they?!?
Well darling...... I would say...
your keen sense of reality and eyesight are both still spot on!
No.
But you were shooting your JR Langley-Verhagen smallbore.....
you absolutely love shooting that gun.
Well baby......not only was I dead last in Pro Class, I got spanked by some Sportsman Class powder burners and some @#$%^ %●□{}♤◇ pellet pukers.
Oh.......
I'll tell you what baby, I couldn't even win the Loser's Class if N50 had one!!!!! I look in the mirror and all I see is a pot bellied balding old guy that shoots for s%#t.
Well darling....smile..... you still have your two most redeeming qualities !
Thanks baby, I am so in need of a morale boost right now.......so tell me....what are they?!?
Well darling...... I would say...
your keen sense of reality and eyesight are both still spot on!
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Troy, You make some good points but I need to clarify the one above. Factory class can only use two piece rests and can not use 1 piece rests.
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Factory Class is not a sanctioned class for 2024 N50 nationals so I am not interested in building a rifle for that class.
In fact I totally forgot it exists.
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True that BUT it was the most popular class at our N50 matches. We are seeing a LOT of crossover traffic from ARA and the comments are positive in favor of N50 over ARA.
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You peaked my interest with this post and your N50 finals ranking showing a CZ Chassis took first place.
My JR Langley-Verhagen 22lr lite varmint is built on a JR Langley tuned CZ 452 action and I own a CZ 452 Grand Finale and a CZ 457 LUX in 22lr.
So why not shoot a CZ 457 Chassis in Factory Class, but I cannot find a version with an MSRP of $1250 or less.
Please advise!
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@thomasair You surely have ODoyal (sp?) rolling in his grave for missing this masterful baiting. 
In my short time in shooting, and in N50, I fully agree with your premise that the best shooters are the best shooters because they know how to shoot. They will likely be the best shooters across many disciplines and with varying equipment.
However...
Benchrest shooting to my mind is, more than any other competition, focused on the machine. In benchrest, the best shooters are also the best at finding (or smithing) and mastering high quality equipment. Other competition formats allow far greater margin of error specifically due to the human element in each shot. Success in BR is measured in mm. Success in any other format is measured in inches or even feet.
You are an excellent marksman. I'm quite sure you can shoot YOUR RIFLE just as well from a bipod or even bags as from a rest. But how long would it take you to shoot 250 with any rifle on the line? A sincere question; could you pick up any rifle on the line at an N50 comp and shoot 250 with it? If the answer is no, then you must concede that equipment is a contributing factor to success and therefore an advantage.
For me, a new and learning shooter, using a (cheap) front rest and rear bag made the process of learning to be a good shooter easier. (I'm not a good shooter. I'm learning.) Having a steady rest and position for the gun allows me to try free floating the gun. Since I'm not holding the gun, I believe I am eliminating many of the variables which effect a shot. I believe this allows me to learn the gun (tuning, "smithing"), and wind reading, at a significantly higher level of CONSISTENT accuracy. I will fully admit that the rest did not make my gun a better gun, or me a better shooter. But it does make it easier for me to become a better shooter, and easier (if only mild fatigue) even for an advanced shooter like yourself.
I now enjoy a little FT and lots of backyard plinking to learn proper hold and rifle engagement. But on the bench, I do believe that the tools provide a real advantage, equally offered to all participants, of largely removing the shooter from the equation. Electronic triggers illustrate my point. And your musings with Stubbers fall perfectly in line with the spirit of BR.
IMO, the nay sayers, fail to see that the point of BR is essentially to remove the human element and hone the equipment and wind reading for ultimate precision.
In my short time in shooting, and in N50, I fully agree with your premise that the best shooters are the best shooters because they know how to shoot. They will likely be the best shooters across many disciplines and with varying equipment.
However...
Benchrest shooting to my mind is, more than any other competition, focused on the machine. In benchrest, the best shooters are also the best at finding (or smithing) and mastering high quality equipment. Other competition formats allow far greater margin of error specifically due to the human element in each shot. Success in BR is measured in mm. Success in any other format is measured in inches or even feet.
You are an excellent marksman. I'm quite sure you can shoot YOUR RIFLE just as well from a bipod or even bags as from a rest. But how long would it take you to shoot 250 with any rifle on the line? A sincere question; could you pick up any rifle on the line at an N50 comp and shoot 250 with it? If the answer is no, then you must concede that equipment is a contributing factor to success and therefore an advantage.
For me, a new and learning shooter, using a (cheap) front rest and rear bag made the process of learning to be a good shooter easier. (I'm not a good shooter. I'm learning.) Having a steady rest and position for the gun allows me to try free floating the gun. Since I'm not holding the gun, I believe I am eliminating many of the variables which effect a shot. I believe this allows me to learn the gun (tuning, "smithing"), and wind reading, at a significantly higher level of CONSISTENT accuracy. I will fully admit that the rest did not make my gun a better gun, or me a better shooter. But it does make it easier for me to become a better shooter, and easier (if only mild fatigue) even for an advanced shooter like yourself.
I now enjoy a little FT and lots of backyard plinking to learn proper hold and rifle engagement. But on the bench, I do believe that the tools provide a real advantage, equally offered to all participants, of largely removing the shooter from the equation. Electronic triggers illustrate my point. And your musings with Stubbers fall perfectly in line with the spirit of BR.
IMO, the nay sayers, fail to see that the point of BR is essentially to remove the human element and hone the equipment and wind reading for ultimate precision.
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How you feel about my opinions is irrelevant to me. I am sure you understand. Have a great day!
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The 'neutered' comment was very mature. As for 'my results'... can YOU show me my results or are you just making stuff up. Children do that.
As I previously respectfully stated... I am on the outside looking in. So, I decided to look up the rules. Imagine my surprise to see that there is a Sportsman class AND a Pro class. Apparently N50 agrees with my 'irrelevant' opinion.
My question to you is... do you shoot Pro class or 'Loser' class?
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The discontinued 2023 CZ457 Chassis rifles can be shot in the factory class as long as the chassis is the OEM chassis that it came with and the barrel is an original OEM to that rifle. You can't swap OEM barrels from rifle to rifle. You could shoot a CZ457 with an aftermarket "chassis" in the N50 Sportsman class as long as the rifle has the original factory barrel.
I see on the CZ website that the new 2024-25 Chassis model price has increased to $1,899 which would make it illegal for the ARA's factory class and also the N50 factory class.
N50 Factory class has been closely following the ARA Factory Class rules.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.americanrimfire.com/media/rules/ARA_factory_approved_rifles_202403.pdf
Here is a list of approved CZ files taken from the ARA's website (linked above) so it appears the out of production 457 Chassis is still legal. "All factory variants of 452,453,455,512 Discontinued 457 Models: LRP-Gray, Training, VPC, VPC-MTR"
Any CZ that is out of production and designated a "target rifle" must move up to the Sportsman class in N50. CZ Bruno models would be an example of this.
Below rules are copied from the N50 Rules page:
2. Factory 22 Rimfire Class Requirements
Current, readily available, factory production, magazine fed, rifle with MSRP of less than $1250.00 or those included on the approved “out of production” factory rifle list (see below).Cartridges: Commercial 22LR. No reloads allowed.
Barrel: Factory rolled stamped identified only. No aftermarket custom barrels and no barrel attachments. A factory thread protector may remain and must be flush with the end of the barrel. A factory supplied muzzle brake that extends past the barrel end may not be used.
Stock: No rifle stock modifications are permitted other than to attach bi-pod using picatinny rail.
Weight: Factory.
Rests: Two-piece rest, sandbags, or any bipod (only two touch points on the bench top) is allowed and may be attached to the rifle stock using an attached picatinny rail for the sole purpose of mounting the bipod. If the attached rail is wider than a standard picatinny rail (~1”) it cannot be used.
Note: Factory 22 RF is scored with the .350 plug head.
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I agree with almost everything you have said...with a few exceptions.@thomasair You surely have ODoyal (sp?) rolling in his grave for missing this masterful baiting.
In my short time in shooting, and in N50, I fully agree with your premise that the best shooters are the best shooters because they know how to shoot. They will likely be the best shooters across many disciplines and with varying equipment.
However...
Benchrest shooting to my mind is, more than any other competition, focused on the machine. In benchrest, the best shooters are also the best at finding (or smithing) and mastering high quality equipment. Other competition formats allow far greater margin of error specifically due to the human element in each shot. Success in BR is measured in mm. Success in any other format is measured in inches or even feet.
You are an excellent marksman. I'm quite sure you can shoot YOUR RIFLE just as well from a bipod or even bags as from a rest. But how long would it take you to shoot 250 with any rifle on the line? A sincere question; could you pick up any rifle on the line at an N50 comp and shoot 250 with it? If the answer is no, then you must concede that equipment is a contributing factor to success and therefore an advantage.
For me, a new and learning shooter, using a (cheap) front rest and rear bag made the process of learning to be a good shooter easier. (I'm not a good shooter. I'm learning.) Having a steady rest and position for the gun allows me to try free floating the gun. Since I'm not holding the gun, I believe I am eliminating many of the variables which effect a shot. I believe this allows me to learn the gun (tuning, "smithing"), and wind reading, at a significantly higher level of CONSISTENT accuracy. I will fully admit that the rest did not make my gun a better gun, or me a better shooter. But it does make it easier for me to become a better shooter, and easier (if only mild fatigue) even for an advanced shooter like yourself.
I now enjoy a little FT and lots of backyard plinking to learn proper hold and rifle engagement. But on the bench, I do believe that the tools provide a real advantage, equally offered to all participants, of largely removing the shooter from the equation. Electronic triggers illustrate my point. And your musings with Stubbers fall perfectly in line with the spirit of BR.
IMO, the nay sayers, fail to see that the point of BR is essentially to remove the human element and hone the equipment and wind reading for ultimate precision.
Benchrest is absolutely about the machine. It's similar to heads up drag racing in a lot of ways. The human element involved in keeping a drag car at its peak is unbelievable at the high levels of racing.
Could I shoot 250s with everyone else's gun on the line on a nice day....absolutely not!! It won't be because they are using a bipod and bag...it will be because their gun isn't accurate enough or it's out of whack.
It's not uncommon for shooters to receive a gun from me that I would be very happy to use at Nationals....only to struggle with it. Most of them eventually figure it out, but some don't. It's super easy to take a great gun and make it shoot poorly. That's much of what separates a great BR shooter from a good BR shooter. Learning to manage your rifle and support equipment to keep it in the zone is a skill that takes a lot of shooting time.
The cost of a Cowan front rest or a Bald Eagle is very little compared to a Lenzi....but the Lenzi won't produce higher scores. If you are a beginner and choose to buy a bipod, instead of spending the same money on an adjustable front rest....that's a poor decision. The mechanical rest will be easier. Will the mechanical rest make a new shooter competitive with an experienced shooter?....NO.
Electronic remote triggers don't shoot higher scores. If your claim is that a new shooter could shoot a slightly higher score with a remote trigger, you could be right ...but it's a moot point because neither score will likely be very good. There are only a few remote trigger guns of mine left out in the world and those guys want them converted to mechanical. Nobody would do that if they shot higher scores with them.
The guys that complain about rests, triggers, tethering and other things will never make up the gap they need with those items. If they are within reasonable striking distance of the top already....none of those items will likely make even 1 point of average difference because they already have pretty good fundamentals. If you have zero fundamentals, then you will probably shoot a higher score with them...although still low.
Build or obtain an accurate rifle, keep it shooting as accurate as it can be, then read the wind. Those are the requirements of the BR shooter.
Mike
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Thank you for the clarification!
One last point of clarification. The CZ MTR is marketed as a Match Target Rifle, if I am not mistaken, but can be shot in Factory Class.
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