National Air Arms Association

[OldSpook]

There was some discussion the other day about what could be done to further our sport and protect it's growth and prevent future regulation.

Some people were for the idea of "flying below the RADAR". Let's censor our words and not talk about issues with terms which are already in use in the arms industry. You know use "cutsey" names for things which are regulated, even if said regulation does not apply to our sport. BAD THINKING TO MY MIND.

First of all, how do you grow a sport you are trying to hide? That's kind of counter productive, isn't it? Second, why live in fear of what might happen when you can take steps to head it off. I posted in that thread that there was nothing which could be done. I was wrong about that. I even made a fair enough case that assertion was correct in a PM exchange with devnull (because politics should be kept between consenting adults in PMs). I was wrong there too.

If we want to protect this industry, in this country, we need a national organization, like the NRA (but apparently not the NRA... because... fear and loathing in California I guess?). We need an organization that can represent our industry and which carries the clout of a million or two million airgunners.

SO VENDORS, MANUFACTURERS, and FORUM OPERATORS ... There is your challenge. Stop censoring the speech of YOUR PATRONS and get together and BUILD THAT ORGANIZATION before the regulators notice you anyway.

Just my two...

 

[scottg0814]

I agree @OldSpook . Unfortunately, air guns are becoming increasingly popular to those that want to do bad things ( according to a couple news stories I've seen recently ). As that activity continues, which I'm afraid it will, regulation will be short coming. Here in NY, arm regulation is already way over the top. It doesn't take much imagination to see NY adding air guns to the existing legislation and treating them as arms. No one wants to end up in the sub 12fpe group... or worse. We all know air guns have achieved some amazing energy outputs which we love but then again, it could be bad news for the future of our sport, our hobby, our passion.

** Just signed up

 

[Deleted 45061]

There is a 501c3 for the industry called the Airgun Sporting Association:

Airgun Sporting Association

airgunsporting.org

Check it out sometime and get involved! Most if not all venders, manufacturers, and forum owners have the same opinions on the matter IMO. I think the best way to be proactive is to be positive, focus on the fun of the sport, and getting involved with organizations like the Airgun Sporting Association or even just forming a local airgun league or shepherding someone into the sport by giving them their first airgun. People like Flat Broke Airgunner are the model for modus operandi on growing the sport.

Just my two cents.
-Atlas

 

[rob_g]

I think the problem is going to be the line between air rifles and powder burners is getting erased with increasing power levels being offered in the newer air rifles. Government is going to, legitimately, ask why air rifles should be treated any differently than powder burners.

 

[Chukar60]

I think a national advocacy group would be beneficial.
The problem you have is a very large percentage of the industry is deliberately pushing the sport to guns that perform very close to if not matching firearm power levels.
22 Cal air guns are right now very very close to matching 22 LR match ammo and may well eclipse that in the near future. There are probably several manufacturers working on that as we speak.
There are larger bore production guns that are already producing power beyond that of a 38 special handgun.
We want to have hunting regulations so we can hunt big game and the industry is building and developing guns that will do this humanely.
So we chase the tiger’s tail with no thought as to what we will reap once we grab hold of it.
We want all the benefits and none of the associated costs. Do we really think that the powers that be will go along with such a lopsided demand?
I am not demeaning the industry nor the trend toward bigger faster harder hitting air guns. That trend is inevitable. Human nature drives us to the superlative. But if we have a national association that is represented well by makers, users and sellers, where no one contingent is allowed to ride rough shod over the others we may well be able to navigate the future far better than if we are divided in our efforts.

Atlas thank you for the link!! I had no idea this group existed. I will be a member within the day.

 

[BackStop]

I think a national advocacy group would be beneficial.
The problem you have is a very large percentage of the industry is deliberately pushing the sport to guns that perform very close to if not matching firearm power levels.
22 Cal air guns are right now very very close to matching 22 LR match ammo and may well eclipse that in the near future. There are probably several manufacturers working on that as we speak.
There are larger bore production guns that are already producing power beyond that of a 38 special handgun.
We want to have hunting regulations so we can hunt big game and the industry is building and developing guns that will do this humanely.
So we chase the tiger’s tail with no thought as to what we will reap once we grab hold of it.
We want all the benefits and none of the associated costs. Do we really think that the powers that be will go along with such a lopsided demand?
I am not demeaning the industry nor the trend toward bigger faster harder hitting air guns. That trend is inevitable. Human nature drives us to the superlative. But if we have a national association that is represented well by makers, users and sellers, where no one contingent is allowed to ride rough shod over the others we may well be able to navigate the future far better than if we are divided in our efforts.

Agree. Freedom is not free.

 

[badger5th]

I think the best way to be proactive is to be positive, focus on the fun of the sport, and getting involved with organizations like the Airgun Sporting Association or even just forming a local airgun league or shepherding someone into the sport by giving them their first airgun.

IMO you nailed it. The airgun culture vs current USA firearm culture are different. The air gunning community is a fun and hobby-like fellowship of like minded, enthusiastic individuals. Gun/firearm culture (esp. online) can be pretty toxic at times, with rampant conspiracy theories, paranoia, etc. Unfortunately since COVID hit most current first time PB buyers are getting into shooting out of some type of fear of "them". It was not that way when I got into shooting. As soon as I turned 18 I went out and bought my first rifle and in great excitment went shooting with my friends for the first time.

In any case I've been an avid shooter since I could first legally buy a firearm. Past year really dove into air gunning and have been having a great time on the range and on the forums here. Minimal politics, just learning stuff and having a good time. regards.

 

[Deleted 45061]

IMO you nailed it. The airgun culture vs current USA firearm culture are different. The air gunning community is a fun and hobby-like fellowship of like minded, enthusiastic individuals. Gun/firearm culture (esp. online) can be pretty toxic at times, with rampant conspiracy theories, paranoia, etc. Unfortunately since COVID hit most current first time PB buyers are getting into shooting out of some type of fear of "them". It was not that way when I got into shooting. As soon as I turned 18 I went out and bought my first rifle and in great excitment went shooting with my friends for the first time.

In any case I've been an avid shooter since I could first legally buy a firearm. Past year really dove into air gunning and have been having a great time on the range and on the forums here. Minimal politics, just learning stuff and having a good time. regards.

I have been reading threads like this for 20 years. Will regulation happen eventually? Yeah. Is it worth this energy? No. The energy should be placed into growing the sport with like minded people, especially the youth. If you want a culture to be different, you have to change the culture one mind at a time. I am not saying that there is never ever a place for a conversation about the fear of regulation, but I see it on this forum at least 4-5 times a week minimally (usually being afraid of a lead ban or being afraid of regulation). I hate to break it to all those being afraid: it is coming -- not now but soon. The best thing you can do right now is be positive, proactive, self-regulate (don't do idiotic things), and most of all have fun.

PS: Thanks for signing up on the ASA! @scottg0814

-Atlas

 

[jps2486]

I agree that there's strength in numbers, but then, your name will be on a list.

 

[beerthief]

I think the problem is going to be the line between air rifles and powder burners is getting erased with increasing power levels being offered in the newer air rifles. Government is going to, legitimately, ask why air rifles should be treated any differently than powder burners.

Right now we have nobody that Washington listen to . I support the NRA for this reason , i do not agree with all they say BUT they are the only influence any one listens too . i will support ( this means with money / due's ) IE : money talks = an air gun origination talks where needed.

 

[Chukar60]

I agree that there's strength in numbers, but then, your name will be on a list.

and you think you are not on some list already? you are on a public forum discussing guns. Air guns, but still guns. Too late!!! They are on to you already.

 

[BackStop]

I have been reading threads like this for 20 years. Will regulation happen eventually? Yeah. Is it worth this energy? No. The energy should be placed into growing the sport with like minded people, especially the youth. If you want a culture to be different, you have to change the culture one mind at a time. I am not saying that there is never ever a place for a conversation about the fear of regulation, but I see it on this forum at least 4-5 times a week minimally (usually being afraid of a lead ban or being afraid of regulation). I hate to break it to all those being afraid: it is coming -- not now but soon. The best thing you can do right now is be positive, proactive, self-regulate (don't do idiotic things), and most of all have fun.

PS: Thanks for signing up on the ASA! @scottg0814

-Atlas

The way you "grow the sport" is to make GOOD airguns affordable for people who can't afford $1000-$5000+ airguns.

What I mean is, you have to make $300 airguns that SHOOT WELL OOTB. (Out Of The Box)

There WAS a trend in that direction, but since the recession has hit, those $300 guns are now $500 or more and not affordable for the "target" market.

So, growing the sport simply REALLY means selling $$$$$$ airguns to those who can afford it (that is what is has always really meant), but will not bring airguns to more people.

JMHO

 

[BurntDog]

I agree @OldSpook . Unfortunately, air guns are becoming increasingly popular to those that want to do bad things ( according to a couple news stories I've seen recently ). As that activity continues, which I'm afraid it will, regulation will be short coming. Here in NY, arm regulation is already way over the top. It doesn't take much imagination to see NY adding air guns to the existing legislation and treating them as arms. No one wants to end up in the sub 12fpe group... or worse. We all know air guns have achieved some amazing energy outputs which we love but then again, it could be bad news for the future of our sport, our hobby, our passion.

** Just signed up View attachment 283827

That's why no American should fail to fight for our 2A it covers all arms, period. There is no, I support the 2nd Amendment BUT. No there's no BUT you do or you don't. There's no grey area. Lose this right lose them all in time.

 

[Deleted 45061]

The way you "grow the sport" is to make GOOD airguns affordable for people who can't afford $1000-$5000+ airguns.

What I mean is, you have to make $300 airguns that SHOOT WELL OOTB. (Out Of The Box)

There WAS a trend in that direction, but since the recession has hit, those $300 guns are now $500 or more and not affordable for the "target" market.

So, growing the sport simply REALLY means selling $$$$$$ airguns to those who can afford it (that is what is has always really meant), but will not bring airguns to more people.

JMHO

Possible vs Feasible I suppose. Under the economy a couple years ago Air Venturi released the Avenger, and that was revolutionary for the price point and has only slightly increased in price since Covid. The Mrod is still a good rifle and there are plenty of Crosman sales per year as well as used ones in the classifieds. Keep in mind, in the powder burning world most guns have doubled in price, some have increased in price by 300%. A healthy outlook in buying an air rifle is understanding that a budget rifle does afford a lot of options, but it just simply cannot match a 1.5k rifle (and if it does, that 1.5k rifle is not up the quality that it should be if that is the case). A perfect example is the Bushbuck 45 I have. That airgun is $1895 or there abouts, and it is worth every penny because it is built like a tank and will do exactly what it is designed to do: put things down with authority. So yes, budget guns that function well get people into the sport, but you cannot expect a $300 DAR to match up even a mid tier airgun like the Krals let alone a beauty like the American Air Arms Evol.

One last point, when a newbie is looking around at airguns be it budget or a more expensive setup, I try and remind them that it is like they are buying their ammo in powder burning for the year. What do I mean by that? I mean that is you go to a range with a AR you will spend $100 on ammo and another $20 or so for the range. You go two times a month? $240 bucks right there, plus gas! A ton of high quality match grade pellets exist for around 16 bucks for 500. So yes a $450 Benjamin Cayden isn't dirt cheap, but it can sunset any powder burning rifle expense within a single range day. When I break the affordability of airguns down like that, I usually get people interested!




Back on topic a bit more for the thread, organizing in shooting groups, making competitions and going to existing ones does make the market larger...the larger it is the more of a consumer group we become and thus companies will venture to make better and more affordable airguns for us. It wasn't too long ago that rifles like the Gauntlet and the Avenger didn't exist. There are more options than ever for consumers. Want more options? Expand the market by getting friends involved and put your money in what you value as a consumer.


Just my 2 cents
-Atlas

 

[BackStop]

Possible vs Feasible I suppose. Under the economy a couple years ago Air Venturi released the Avenger, and that was revolutionary for the price point and has only slightly increased in price since Covid. The Mrod is still a good rifle and there are plenty of Crosman sales per year as well as used ones in the classifieds. Keep in mind, in the powder burning world most guns have doubled in price, some have increased in price by 300%. A healthy outlook in buying an air rifle is understanding that a budget rifle does afford a lot of options, but it just simply cannot match a 1.5k rifle (and if it does, that 1.5k rifle is not up the quality that it should be if that is the case). A perfect example is the Bushbuck 45 I have. That airgun is $1895 or there abouts, and it is worth every penny because it is built like a tank and will do exactly what it is designed to do: put things down with authority. So yes, budget guns that function well get people into the sport, but you cannot expect a $300 DAR to match up even a mid tier airgun like the Krals let alone a beauty like the American Air Arms Evol.

One last point, when a newbie is looking around at airguns be it budget or a more expensive setup, I try and remind them that it is like they are buying their ammo in powder burning for the year. What do I mean by that? I mean that is you go to a range with a AR you will spend $100 on ammo and another $20 or so for the range. You go two times a month? $240 bucks right there, plus gas! A ton of high quality match grade pellets exist for around 16 bucks for 500. So yes a $450 Benjamin Cayden isn't dirt cheap, but it can sunset any powder burning rifle expense within a single range day. When I break the affordability of airguns down like that, I usually get people interested!




Back on topic a bit more for the thread, organizing in shooting groups, making competitions and going to existing ones does make the market larger...the larger it is the more of a consumer group we become and thus companies will venture to make better and more affordable airguns for us. It wasn't too long ago that rifles like the Gauntlet and the Avenger didn't exist. There are more options than ever for consumers. Want more options? Expand the market by getting friends involved and put your money in what you value as a consumer.


Just my 2 cents
-Atlas

When someone making/selling airguns tried to blow smoke up my...

I tend to take what they say with that in mind and a large grain of salt.

The ONLY way to "grow the sport" is to make it affordable to more people.

Or is this a "sport" that only the elite can afford?

Did not mean to hijack the thread, but when the term "growing the sport" is mentioned and nothing is said about the costs involved, it does make me wince.

 

[BackStop]

I have been reading threads like this for 20 years. Will regulation happen eventually? Yeah. Is it worth this energy? No. The energy should be placed into growing the sport with like minded people, especially the youth. If you want a culture to be different, you have to change the culture one mind at a time. I am not saying that there is never ever a place for a conversation about the fear of regulation, but I see it on this forum at least 4-5 times a week minimally (usually being afraid of a lead ban or being afraid of regulation). I hate to break it to all those being afraid: it is coming -- not now but soon. The best thing you can do right now is be positive, proactive, self-regulate (don't do idiotic things), and most of all have fun.

PS: Thanks for signing up on the ASA! @scottg0814

-Atlas

You evidently haven't been paying much attention to the actions of the regime in power in the USA. While I understand that politics are not to be discussed on this forum, when you start talking about "regulation" and "bans", etc, etc, etc... you have to consider who is in power and WHY they want to do what they are trying to do.

Sorry Michael... it can't be helped if there is going to be any logical, rational, reasonable discussion on AGN.

 

[Deleted 45061]

When someone making/selling airguns tried to blow smoke up my...

I tend to take what they say with that in mind and a large grain of salt.

The ONLY way to "grow the sport" is to make it affordable to more people.

Or is this a "sport" that only the elite can afford?

Did not mean to hijack the thread, but when the term "growing the sport" is mentioned and nothing is said about the costs involved, it does make me wince.

Here are just several of the current market offerings:

Benjamin Fortitude .22 Air Rifle: Airguns of Arizona

Air Venturi Avenger | PCP Hunting Air Rifle | Pyramyd AIR

We've got a great price on the Air Venturi Avenger, Regulated PCP Air Rifle. Get a great price and expert advice at Pyramyd for your next outdoor adventure!

www.pyramydair.com

Umarex Gauntlet | Synthetic PCP Air Rifle | Pyramyd AIR

We've got a great price on the Umarex Gauntlet PCP Air Rifle, Synthetic Stock. Get a great price and expert advice at Pyramyd for your next outdoor adventure!

www.pyramydair.com

There are more in that price point for under $300 bucks, but I am picking a couple of the ones my friends like the most/ones I've shot. If your wanting a company like Kalibrgun to make their airguns for $300, it won't happen. Some things really can't be done. Still, the budget options above get shooters having fun with their friends in the backyard and yes, growing the sport. One nice thing about a lot of these larger airgun companies is that they do sponsor organizations like the Airgun Sporting Associations.

Kind regards,
-Atlas

 

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

The budget/quality options nowadays are great,

only a few years back all you had as a budget gun was the single shots Disco or Katana, now we have regulated, multishot, powerful guns that are very affordable
Keep your eyes out for the Aircuda Standard, for 320 bucks you will get a really good gun.

 

[Deleted 45061]

The budget/quality options nowadays are great,

only a few years back all you had as a budget gun was the single shots Disco or Katana, now we have regulated, multishot, powerful guns that are very affordable
Keep your eyes out for the Aircuda Standard, for 320 bucks you will get a really good gun.

I saw the Aircuda at shotshow and its sister product. Very well balanced. It should be another good option though I've had no shooting experience with them. I believe the parent company of JTS is Xisico? Or am I mistaken?

 

[Removed]

I love Airguns, they've been a huge part of my life for over 30 years. The past 5 years I've made a living off them and have enjoyed every minute. The laws pertaining to them are progressive in reflection to the popularity and advancements. What irritates me beyond belief is these entities (several of them) claiming that they are fighting for our rights but in reality the goal is to sell more of one particular product. To me these entities need to be more transparent with who they really represent..... otherwise it's deceitful to all of us. Recently I was asked to sign a letter and after careful consideration I declined for the above reasons.