Need help with rifle decision.

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ctshooter

ctshooter

Member
Oct 30, 2018
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CT, United States
I am looking to purchase a new rifle for paper and reactive target shooting and hoping you all can help with recommendations.

Here's a list of my needs/wants:

  • .177 caliber.
  • Magazine based action. (preference goes to revolver style mag versus spring loaded rotary)
  • 18-22 fpe - I'd like to shoot pellets like the JSB 10.34 up in the 900fps range for flat 20-50 yard trajectory.
  • Regulated
  • Light to medium weight, not heavy.
  • No HP versions that are as long as a 2x4
  • CF bottle based air supply.
  • NOT a bullpup.
  • Foster or fill-probe okay.
  • Pic style rail preferred to dovetail
  • Composite or laminate stock (no wood)
  • Built-in bipod rail
  • Match trigger
  • Length less than 36"
  • Built-in 1/2"x20 UNF moderator threading.
  • Not an FX. (too many fiddly issues, I'm not a beta tester - reg creeping, barrel liner nonsense - not for me) Other brands I'm not fond of for one reason or another: Hatsan, Kral, Ataman)

I realize no one rifle will satisfy all of the above. With that in mind I have narrowed my choices to the following four:

  • Weihrauch HW110 Carbine ST
    • ++ quiet, accurate, I already have 6 .177 mags from my HW44, great trigger, pic rail, bipod rail. - - small air cylinder, not adjustable
  • Brocock Bantam Sniper Mini
    • My only concern is the trigger might be a bit heavy. I've read mixed reviews on the trigger - set me straight if I'm wrong.
  • Daystate RedWolf .177
    • This would be a sweet option if I knew it would a good shooter - but so many mixed reviews. I refuse to spend $2500 on a rifle that could even potentially need to be sent back.
  • Daystate Wolverine 2 Huma
    • Looks like a nice rifle. I read a thread where someone said the newer ones are not built as well as 4-5 years ago. I'd like to hear otherwise. 

EDIT - added some more requirements. (Reg and weight)
 
I have been shooting my RAW HM1000 in .177 caliber for FT for several years. It's one of the most accurate rifles in my collection. It meets most of your stated requirements except for the Picatinny rail, which I don't consider an issue. Mine has a walnut stock, but I believe you can get a laminate instead, but that makes it heavier. This is the least expensive RAW and cheaper than FX Crowns. I feel that it is a superior rifle. You can get it built with any feature you wish including standard LW or Polygonal barrels at any length. Martin will tune it to any power level you wish. Mine was built with the intention of shooting light varmint benchrest at 12 FPE. I've since re-tuned it and shoot FT. I shoot against a lot of other people who use Steyrs, AA, Thomas and other big name guns. I wouldn't trade mine for any of them.

1565374525_7043629885d4db83d597d39.64292944_HM1000 full right view.jpg

 
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Well to each his own and everyone's experiences are different...but I own a Brocock Bantam, two Daystates, and three FX rifles. All three of the FX have been totally trouble free, shot great right out of the box and continue to do so. The Brocock and both Daystates all have had issues and have been in for warranty repairs multiple times.
 
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My brain popped right over to the Brocock Bantam that I have in .177. Not for sale by the way. Some slight differences in the sniper and my older bantam buy easy to make the comparison. The only possible issue may be the trigger. Mine is just right at 1.3 lbs for 25 meter, 50 meter and rats! You may need something different. A good gunsmith could most likely hone and tune it more to your liking. Shoots at 900 on power level #2 faster on #1 and about 700 on #3. I use #2 all the time. 10.3 are easily hole on hole at 25 meters IF you are good enough. I would certainly move it up into the top tier. Let us know what you end up with please. We all like to learn.
 
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Of the rifles you listed, my preference is the Red Wolf. I have one in .22, and I like it very much. I shot 5 groups with it today at 50 yards that averaged under .300". I have owned (and sold) a Bantam, HW110, and Wolverine R. Now, the RW ain't cheap, and nothing is guaranteed problem free. Mine came with a bad barrel and would not shoot. AOA sent me a new barrel, and it has been great ever since. Plus, I get a great tomato stake from the first barrel! 

Now let me recommend something regarding which you specifically did not ask, an FX Royale 400. I have about 2,000 shots through mine, and it is the most reliably accurate air rifle I have ever owned, great shot count, shoots well from the mag, and the ST barrel virtually never needs cleaning. These are 5 shot groups at 25 yards, and I shot two under half inch at 50 yards this morning. I am not a fan of most of the recent FX products, but the Royale platform is one of the best, and at half the price of a Red Wolf. 

1565374941_9823291605d4db9dd3c6705.42821032_groups.jpg

 
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My wife's Wolverine R is running 900 with 10.3s and is as accurate and reliable as anything we have had except maybe her RW HP 177. It's truly incredible w 16.1 gn Beasts at 950.

Looks to me like you've created a good solid list. RW's cycle quite slick and the triggers are lighter than the W R but after having both for more than a year, I kind of like the W R more. I guess the main reason is not having to reset it if you wait too long to shoot. I polished and adjusted her trigger and it's down below 8 oz and crisp but safe. It just shoots sooo pleasantly. 

I've worked on a Sniper and a 110 but haven't shot either enough to judge them against the other 2. Both are well made and should be accurate and reliable .

Anyway , have fun with your shopping. 

Bob
 
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hawkey69 - thanks for that feedback. I know the Internet is a hard place to get realistic long term reliability of an item. Regardless of what it is, airgun, car, tv, etc, people only usually post when they have problems. You don't see a lot of post where someone say hey I've had this rifle for 3 years and it's great, shoots amazingly and I didn't need a mechanical engineering degree to tune it nor access to a CNC.

jps2486 - I hand't considered RAW, but you're right and I will take a look. Dovetail rails is not a deal breaker - I just have more mounts and stuff for pic rails. 
 
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Martin has a Weaver style rail that can be fit to RAW rifles and many custom options are available. The regs are set to your power level and are not easily adjustable by the user,

This makes them very unlikely to suffer the dreaded reg creep. Power can be adjusted (within limits) by changing hammer spring tension. I agree with JPS that their simplicity, inherent accuracy, and bomb proof build separate RAW products from most of the usual suspects.
 
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If the RAW is within your consideration, I second the recommendation. I have an HM 1000 in .22, and it's great. It is, however, a substantial piece of equipment. Mine is 44.5" long with moderator, and weighs 11 pounds with scope. But in terms of combining accuracy and durability, I know of no better rifle. I recently adjusted the regulator on mine for a bit more velocity with a heavier pellet, and it is not difficult, you just have to do a little disassembly. 
 
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My brain popped right over to the Brocock Bantam that I have in .177. Not for sale by the way. Some slight differences in the sniper and my older bantam buy easy to make the comparison. The only possible issue may be the trigger. Mine is just right at 1.3 lbs for 25 meter, 50 meter and rats! You may need something different. A good gunsmith could most likely hone and tune it more to your liking. Shoots at 900 on power level #2 faster on #1 and about 700 on #3. I use #2 all the time. 10.3 are easily hole on hole at 25 meters IF you are good enough. I would certainly move it up into the top tier. Let us know what you end up with please. We all like to learn.
Click to expand...

I can handle pretty much any trigger once I get used to it. The trigger on my R5 .30 from Ed is definitely not a match trigger and takes some getting used to - but now I feel pretty good with it. To give you an example of guns I have with near perfect triggers: Taipan Veteran .22 Shorty, FX Ranchero Carbine, HW44 pistol. 

elh0102 - I don't want to sound like a hypocrite now that I do own on FX. But the Ranchero is an older ST design like your Royale 400 (which I have looked into before) and is really amazing - but limited to 25-30 yards before the pellets begin to drop more steeply.
 
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Martin has a Weaver style rail that can be fit to RAW rifles and many custom options are available. The regs are set to your power level and are not easily adjustable by the user,

This makes them very unlikely to suffer the dreaded reg creep. Power can be adjusted (within limits) by changing hammer spring tension. I agree with JPS that their simplicity, inherent accuracy, and bomb proof build separate RAW products from most of the usual suspects.
Click to expand...

If the RAW is within your consideration, I second the recommendation. I have an HM 1000 in .22, and it's great. It is, however, a substantial piece of equipment. Mine is 44.5" long with moderator, and weighs 11 pounds with scope. But in terms of combining accuracy and durability, I know of no better rifle.
Click to expand...

I'm definitely going to look into the RAW, but weight could be a consideration - I have a heavy bullpup so I'm trying to go with something a lighter that you can grab, point and shoot easily.
 
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Click to expand...

elh0102 - I don't want to sound like a hypocrite now that I do own on FX. But the Ranchero is an older ST design like your Royale 400 (which I have looked into before) and is really amazing - but limited to 25-30 yards before the pellets begin to drop more steeply.
Click to expand...

You can get the 900 fps you seek with a Royale in .177. I am getting about 880 in .22 with the JSB 18. I'm not pushing the Royale over the RW or RAW, but I have been very happy with mine, and it's a great value, IMO. 
 
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So the list of wishes and requirements you've laid out have ruled out just about all the popular rifles on here. 

The redwolf for example has an ongoing "debate" regarding its magazine issues, and it isn't regulated. (it uses an adjustable hammer strike controlled by a software model) One thing to consider if you do want a RW is that you ought add the cost of a programmer, several hundred more dollars, because that or a new control board are what it takes to tinker/tune it. 

The RAWs meet most of your requirements, but are probably too heavy. 

The FX guns, particularly the older ones like the Royal, do most of the things you asked for but have spring mags. And there is the persistent rumor that FX ST/STX guns aren't as accurate in .177 as some of the other guns. 

The Weilrauch has all of the disadvantages you mentioned, plus the fact that they tend to run a bit too hot for optimal performance in .177



And so it goes.....



My recommendation, since you're looking for a .177 in the land of people who typically shoot .22s, 25s, or .30s and clearly have some cash to burn, is you take a look at what the world's best .177 shooters are running:
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/equipment-list-of-the-wftf-world-championships/



I'm fully prepared to be wrong, but I doubt there was a single WT champ who hadn't tweaked, tuned, and fettled their gun to get where they were performance-wise. Food for thought, especially since the brands popular there are VERY different from the sampling of popular brands you'll see on this forum. ;) 

I hope that provides something useful/interesting to chew on. 
 
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Martin has a Weaver style rail that can be fit to RAW rifles and many custom options are available. The regs are set to your power level and are not easily adjustable by the user,

This makes them very unlikely to suffer the dreaded reg creep. Power can be adjusted (within limits) by changing hammer spring tension. I agree with JPS that their simplicity, inherent accuracy, and bomb proof build separate RAW products from most of the usual suspects.
Click to expand...

Regarding the trigger, RAW's triggers are the best of the best, bar none. Their design is very robust without any tiny little breakable parts and may be adjusted to whatever you like. My TM1000 BR gun is set at 2 oz; my HM1000 FT gun at 7 oz, and my HM1000X 25 cal at 5 oz.. If you like them heavier, you can do it. The whole trigger is modular and may be removed from the action with two easily removable pins.

1565383711_8572786735d4ddc1f21e5d0.86127954_Trigger7.jpg


1565383732_10891929145d4ddc34723ac2.91327848_InkedTrigger10_LI.jpg

 
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Of the ones you listed I’m really eyeing the Mini... that is a sweet looking rig... my .22 Compatto shoots M.O.A. @ 50 with JSB 18s and 15.9s when I do my part and the wind is calm. The Brocock Mini or the Concept Lite, one of the two will be my next PCP. Over 7K pellets through my Compatto over a years time, no issues at all with the gun.
 
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Regarding the trigger, RAW's triggers are the best of the best, bar none. Their design is very robust without any tiny little breakable parts and may be adjusted to whatever you like. My TM1000 BR gun is set at 2 oz; my HM1000 FT gun at 7 oz, and my HM1000X 25 cal at 5 oz.. If you like them heavier, you can do it. The whole trigger is modular and may be removed from the action with two easily removable pins.
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I have a RAW, and the trigger is very good, no question, certainly match grade. But, the best triggers I have used are Steyr and Anschutz, assuming you don't need a release weight of over 6 or 7 ounces. Relative to the RAW, the Anschutz is more complex, as it provides for conversion between single and two-stage operation.But the feel of both is unsurpassed in my experience. 
 
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My 2cents!, RED WOLF!, it pretty much meets your criteria and is actually 3-guns in one, can shoot light pellets on low heavy’s on high and whatever works on medium! Mine is a .22hp but I also own right now 3-RAWS and had as many as 6 so you know I like um!, for the money the best value your going to get right now!, just on the heavy side? But they don’t break very,very dependable and you can talk to Martin personally!, in defense of the RW some negative press on here & I’ve had a issues with my magazine but other than that awesome gun!( buy the way bought mine from AoA they will take care of you no b.s.!
 
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