Crosman New 1701p

[fderry]

Received my Crosman 1701P 2 days ago. Unboxed it and mounted a Williams open sight and a set of Steve Corcoran grips. Yesterday I mounted a target at 10 yards and when I went to sight in the open sights, I realized my old eyes weren’t going to be able to use open sights! I had an Optisan CP 3-12x32P rifle scope on another PCP, so I borrowed it with its UTG rings and mounted it to the 1701P. Set scope at 6x, filled to 3000psi, sighted in the scope and shot 75 AA 10.3gr pellets. The ending pressure was approximately 1400psi (I ran out of my AA pellets at 75). I am very impressed with the accuracy and consistency for an unregulated pistol right out of the box.

For a Crosman out of the box trigger I was blown away. It has a nice first stage with a clear stop at the second stage with a crisp break for a total average pull of 13 ounces. I have a 1720 (1701 converted to 1720) and a Prod with the same trigger group but they required polishing/adjustment and still aren’t as nice as this trigger out of the box. I have paid tuners to get triggers this good in the past! Not sure if this is an anomaly or if Crosman has stepped up their game.

Temp 62*
Barometer 23.06 inHg
Altitude 7126 ft
Shot count: 75
Low: 399 FPS
Hi: 433 FPS
Avg: 421 FPS
Spread: 34 FPS
STD Dev: 8.4 FPS

Initial stock hammer settings:
Hammer throw – 1 ¾ turns from full CCW
Hammer spring – 2 ½ turns from full CCW

I am going to install some different TPs to see how it performs at higher velocities. Also have a spare 1720 LW 12” barrel that I will install and test.

Target at 10 yards

 

[rcarlisle]

Nice shooting! The 1701P is one of those guns you have to shoot to appreciate. Very deserving of those lovely grips you put on it. I am fortunate enough to make use of open sights, so mine is wearing the LPA-MIM sight at the rear. I haven't found many pellets this gun won't shoot well, but I've settled on the JSB 8.44gr as having the best accuracy from mine. Gamo round ball work surprisingly well and I was even able to get decent groups with JSB 10gr K.O. slugs (lol).

 

[fderry]

Nice shooting! The 1701P is one of those guns you have to shoot to appreciate. Very deserving of those lovely grips you put on it. I am fortunate enough to make use of open sights, so mine is wearing the LPA-MIM sight at the rear. I haven't found many pellets this gun won't shoot well, but I've settled on the JSB 8.44gr as having the best accuracy from mine. Gamo round ball work surprisingly well and I was even able to get decent groups with JSB 10gr K.O. slugs (lol).

Thanks for the compliment. I am 76 years old and my eye sight isn't what it use to be. There aren't a lot of options for a magnifying optic that are right for an air pistol. I have tried a couple of pistol scopes but they have a fixed parallax of 100 yards. This doesn't work that well at 10 to 50 yards for me. I do have a Weihrauch 4x32 rifle scope that came on a HW30 package I bought years ago that I will try. It is lighter than what I am using now and has enough magnification for 10 to 30 yards with my eyes.
Just received 3 tins of the new Benjamin .177 Match Grade 10.5gr pellets. Also have a few tins of JSB 8.44gr pellets among others. Not sure about slugs at pistol velocities but I do have some K.O.s. I'll try them for the fun of it.

 

[boscoebrea]

There are plenty of pistol scopes that would work,but I shoot at 30 yards with my pistols,I usually use Burris 7x, some of them have a AO adjustment,less expensive good scopes that work are Simmons and Nc, even with no Parellex adjustment

all are ok for shooting 25 or so yards,older Tesco pistol scopes also work. About $100 for the cheaper scopes.
The Crosmans 1701 is a favorite of mine to.
Some of the best triggers are Crosman and Benjermine pistol scopes...put a wider trigger blade on it it and becomes even better for feeling.

 

[beerthief]

Thanks for the compliment. I am 76 years old and my eye sight isn't what it use to be. There aren't a lot of options for a magnifying optic that are right for an air pistol. I have tried a couple of pistol scopes but they have a fixed parallax of 100 yards. This doesn't work that well at 10 to 50 yards for me. I do have a Weihrauch 4x32 rifle scope that came on a HW30 package I bought years ago that I will try. It is lighter than what I am using now and has enough magnification for 10 to 30 yards with my eyes.
Just received 3 tins of the new Benjamin .177 Match Grade 10.5gr pellets. Also have a few tins of JSB 8.44gr pellets among others. Not sure about slugs at pistol velocities but I do have some K.O.s. I'll try them for the fun of it.

I'm 78 and same old eyes . their are pistol scopes with long eye relief and any price you wish to pay . Burris = ? 20 inch eye relief $200 apx. ? memory is like eyes hahaha

 

[fderry]

Guys I have 2 Burris 2x-7x-32 pistol scopes and a Leupold Scout 2.5x28 scout scope from my powder burner pistol days. The problem is at 10 to 30 yards they are dependent on eye placement. The cross hairs will move around the POA dependent on eye placement. I can compensate for this by concentrating on my eye placement but would prefer not to when trying to determine accuracy of a new pistol or selecting the right pellet. I am having a good experience with low power rifle scopes with the exception of eye relief and weight.
I currently use a rifle scope to test the accuracy of my new pistols. Once I have an idea of the pistol's accuracy I can move to a pistol scope or reflex sight to hit a soda can at 30 yards. But if I want to hit or come close to a 1/4" dot at 30 yards I need a rifle scope with parallax adjustment based on my current eye sight.

 

[boscoebrea]

Properly a good idea, pistol scopes are sooo picky about eye placement, it takes a lot of practice to be able to get use to them.
Maybe a Red dot would work better for you, then again we older fellows need to be able to "see" what we are shooting at

 

[beerthief]

Properly a good idea, pistol scopes are sooo picky about eye placement, it takes a lot of practice to be able to get use to them.
Maybe a Red dot would work better for you, then again we older fellows need to be able to "see" what we are shooting at

yes most of my targets are grayish paper at 16 yards , whitish @ 30 yards until i look through the scope , then there are bull's on the paper !

 

[fderry]

I installed a Prod TP (0.067”), my spare 1720 LW 12” barrel, Rowan Engineering air stripper and turned the hammer spring to 3 ½ turns from full CCW.
Hammer settings:
Hammer throw – 1 ¾ turns from full CCW
Hammer spring – 3 ½ turns from full CCW

I have looked for information on tuning a 1701/1720 on the internet and the best info I found on a 1720 tune is as follows:

nervoustrigger post on GTA Apr 5, 2015:
“I started by enlarging the transfer port to 0.094", then added three O-rings (-113 in 70A durometer) and managed to get a string of 26 shots inside of 4%. I then decided to try adding flat washers between the O-rings which is a technique that others have used. After playing around with the stroke adjustment and hammer spring preload, I ended up with a decent tune yielding 34 shots.

summary of the settings:
transfer port: 0.094"
Bstaley stack: 3x -113 O-rings (70A durometer) and 2x 0.054" thick washers (alternating O-ring and washers)
stock hammer spring
stroke: 2.0 turns from full CCW
hammer spring preload: 7.0 turns from full CCW”

This what I am using as a guide. Not sure I need the 12fpe he was going for but his post gives me a good starting point. I have the o-rings and washers he specified for the Bsaley modification, but haven’t installed them yet. Also, my TP is smaller than the one he used. My current tune is giving a max of 7.7fpe. Not sure I need more. If I stay at 7fpe - 8fpe, I will need to smooth out the shot curve.

Temp 58*
Barometer 23.43 inHg
Altitude 7126 ft
Benjaman .177 10.5gr
Shot count - 75
Low: 399 FPS
Hi: 573 FPS
Avg: 518 FPS
Spread: 174 FPS
STD Dev: 47.1 FPS
Starting pressure – 3000psi
Ending pressure – 600psi

5 Shot groups at 10 yards:

 

[weevil]

I love my 1701P! Tried the bstaley mod on mine but couldn’t get it to stop the hammer bounce at higher power. Ended up with a Huma reg at 110bar, a lightweight Hill hammer, TP at 3/32in with stock barrel, power adjuster (because stock HS screw wandered) and TKO mod. 28 shots on the reg at 9fpe, totally crisp. Loves the Zan 13grain slugs and will shoot 1/2 inch groups at 40y. Dialed the trigger pull down to 6oz. Just dropped the power down to 6fpe for winter indoor CPHP shooting.

 

[AirNGasman]

After souping-up my 1701P with nothing but drilling-out the TP, doing the B-Staley mod increased my shot count by about 50%. See attachment for more details.

View attachment 1701P excerpt pdf.pdf

 

[fderry]

I love my 1701P! Tried the bstaley mod on mine but couldn’t get it to stop the hammer bounce at higher power. Ended up with a Huma reg at 110bar, a lightweight Hill hammer, TP at 3/32in with stock barrel, power adjuster (because stock HS screw wandered) and TKO mod. 28 shots on the reg at 9fpe, totally crisp. Loves the Zan 13grain slugs and will shoot 1/2 inch groups at 40y. Dialed the trigger pull down to 6oz. Just dropped the power down to 6fpe for winter indoor CPHP shooting.

Sounds like you have a very good shooting 1701!
My goal for this 1701 is to have a good shooting non-regulated light pistol shooting about 6-8fpe accurately. Also, I don't want to use a moderator or shroud so that is why I'm looking at lower power.

 

[fderry]

After souping-up my 1701P with nothing but drilling-out the TP, doing the B-Staley mod increased my shot count by about 50%. See attachment for more details.

View attachment 397886

Outstanding tune! Does the B-Staley mod help smooth out the shot curve of a non-regulated pistol?

 

[weevil]

I debated the reg for so long and was finally convinced by Motorhead. The key is to use a light hammer and low pressure, which makes for really quiet operation of the action and a very crisp opening of the valve. The problem with the orings for me was that, as pressure dropped, the gun would start farting from hammer bounce. I tried a bunch of springs and settings but couldn’t flush it out. Frankly, when I first set it for a modest bump to 6fpe with a prod TP, it still shot a very flat string from 2900psi to 1900 without any orings. The striker was flush with the hammer and the HS was close to max. Whatever you do, I strongly recommend the power adjusters available on myriad eBay sites. They provide a larger range of HS adjustment and have a locking mechanism to prevent them from moving during use, which is a big problem with the stock screws at higher power settings.

 

[fderry]

I have a 1720 and Prod with Huma regulators and like the tune I can achieve with the regulator. The reason I'm shying away from using a regulator on the 1701 is the smaller air reservoir. If I can get a good non-regulated spread with accuracy, that is the way I want to go. After reviewing the numbers from my last test it looks like if I use a reduced starting fill and stop at a higher remaining pressure I may be close to a reasonable spread similar to what you experienced with your 6fpe tune. Once I determine a good starting pressure I can play with the hammer spring setting to refine the tune. The down side of this approach is I will go through a lot of pellets finding the right tune. I do have an after market hammer spring adjuster on my Prod that I may try on the 1701 after I get close to a good tune.
I also have a concern about possible hammer bounce with the B-Staley mod, but a lot of folks have used it successfully.

 

[weevil]

FWIW and I fully respect your logic, I found that the loss of air capacity was more than compensated by the increased efficiency (and being able to run from 3100psi)

 

[fderry]

I respect your advice and may come around to your method if I get frustrated going my way. I followed your advice with my GK1 and am using .22 Predator GTOs and an Impulse Air 1200 moderator with my GK1 and am very happy with its performance.

 

[AirNGasman]

Outstanding tune! Does the B-Staley mod help smooth out the shot curve of a non-regulated pistol?

I'd answer that question with a qualified yes.

I've found it takes no small amount of trial-and-error monkeying to find the right amount of cushioning/restricting of the hammer-blow against the valve-stem; often involving assembling, testing, disassembling, adding or subtracting o-rings, retesting, and so on. But when/if you find the sweet spot, I've seen disproportional increases in shot-count at the expense of 10-15% velocity.

Also, you'd have to consider disproportional increase in shot count a "smooth out" of the shot curve. Example- if you accept a (say) 30 FPS extreme spread, and your shot count increases by 40% while remaining within a 30 FPS extreme spread, at only a 10-15% cost in velocity, I'd say that qualifies as a smooth-out of the shot curve. And though not necessarily "the best I ever had", to quote Roger Daltrey, "I'd call that a bargain".

By the way, I've found snug-(outside diameter)fitting rubber WASHERS work and hold up better than o-rings for B Staley tunes.

 

[fderry]

I'd answer that question with a qualified yes.

I've found it takes no small amount of trial-and-error monkeying to find the right amount of cushioning/restricting of the hammer-blow against the valve-stem; often involving assembling, testing, disassembling, adding or subtracting o-rings, retesting, and so on. But when/if you find the sweet spot, I've seen disproportional increases in shot-count at the expense of 10-15% velocity.

Also, you'd have to consider disproportional increase in shot count a "smooth out" of the shot curve. Example- if you accept a (say) 30 FPS extreme spread, and your shot count increases by 40% while remaining within a 30 FPS extreme spread, at only a 10-15% cost in velocity, I'd say that qualifies as a smooth-out of the shot curve. And though not necessarily "the best I ever had", to quote Roger Daltrey, "I'd call that a bargain".

By the way, I've found snug-(outside diameter)fitting rubber WASHERS work and hold up better than o-rings for B Staley tunes.

I found some 3/4"od x 1/2" id rubber washers on eBay. Is this the size you are using? I like the concept of washers versus o-rings and will give washers a try if I have identified the right size. Thanks for the advice.

 

[AirNGasman]

Sorry FD, I don't recall the size.