Hi Group, I really enjoy shooting paper and was more accustomed to 22 lr with a anschutz rifle but have moved to air gun with a new air wolf rifle. I keep hearing about how any of the new top tier air rifles should consistently shoot 1/2 or under groups at 50 yards. Is this realistic? I have tried mostly JSB 18.1 and 15.9 pellets with mixed results. rarely shooting under 1/2 group on super calm days and using the single shot tray with a nice front rest and rear bag on a solid table. I have tried hi power and low power and mostly getting about .75 groups and some 1/2 inch groups and rarely less than a half inch. I thought when I lightened the trigger pull it would solve some of my issues but has not made much change. Any suggestions? Would sorting my pellets by weight tighten my groups enough?
New Air Wolf is having trouble shooting 1/2 in group at 50 yrds.
- Thread starter DrippinLead
- Start date
I think 3/4 inch groups mostly with several 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards is very good. Consistent half inch groups that I am still working on could come from a proper scope, better rifle hold, no wind, etc. A little bit of each can contribute. Try to shoot indoors to establish a baseline. Also use a solid gun vise or stand that support both the front and the end..
My Daystate MVT .22 likes Air Arms pellets better than JSBs. Try also the Baracuda Match heavies, many with Daystate Airwolf rifles like that better than JSBs.
I think at 50 yards sorting by weight should help but not as much as at 100 yards. JSBs supposed to be best between 850fps and 930fps max. I think many shoot them at 880fps.
My Daystate MVT .22 likes Air Arms pellets better than JSBs. Try also the Baracuda Match heavies, many with Daystate Airwolf rifles like that better than JSBs.
I think at 50 yards sorting by weight should help but not as much as at 100 yards. JSBs supposed to be best between 850fps and 930fps max. I think many shoot them at 880fps.
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It you want tight groups at 50 I'd definitely do some sorting. My last tin of JSB 10.34 had pellets from 10.1 to 10.7 I think having that "4" in the hundredths position is very misleading as it implies accuracy to the hundredths. It isn't so much that a .3 is going to fly that much differently than a .4 but the .1 right next to the .7 would.
Once you have same weight, you might want to look into sorting on head size.
Once you have same weight, you might want to look into sorting on head size.
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Make sure the rifle is firing correctly. I would first Chrony the rifle. Make sure the shot string has a consistent FPS with as close to an extreme spread of 10 fps for the desired number of shots you can expect from the rifle. I would then lock the rife in place in your rest or wrap the barrel and place it in a vise. I would shoot at say 10-25 yards and see if the barrel shoots straight. The barrel should not be able to move even to reload the pellet. From this you will discover if the barrel is shooting straight. You may have to try several pellet brands and weights to find what shoots the straightest. Straight Shooters sells a sampler pack for $30 that has a wide assortment. With the barrel securely in place the pellets should stack on top of each other at 10 yards. If you can't get this you have a barrel problem.
Once you determine your rifle is shooting properly, good chrony string and the barrel is shooting straight, then you can work on different pellets at 30-50 yards. You may find some pellets work good at close range but not at long range (and vise versa). Air rifles have considerably less power than a .22 rimfire, so they are more sensitive to the elements like wind. When shooting at longer distances consistant pellet weight and size becomes more critical for precision. The boys in the UK have to shoot rifles around 12 FPE. Compare that to a rimfire which shoots well over 100 FPE. The lower the guns FPE the more your shooting skills come into play.
As a side note and apologies if this is too basic: Shooting a "bulleye group" and a "group" are two different things. If I am trying to determine if it's my shooting skills or the rifle, I will keep my POA the same. If the pellets goes to the same place 5 shots in a row, I know I have to adjust my scope or POA on the next group. When you are continually changing your POA, you have no idea if it is you or the rifle.
Hope this helps,
Doc
Once you determine your rifle is shooting properly, good chrony string and the barrel is shooting straight, then you can work on different pellets at 30-50 yards. You may find some pellets work good at close range but not at long range (and vise versa). Air rifles have considerably less power than a .22 rimfire, so they are more sensitive to the elements like wind. When shooting at longer distances consistant pellet weight and size becomes more critical for precision. The boys in the UK have to shoot rifles around 12 FPE. Compare that to a rimfire which shoots well over 100 FPE. The lower the guns FPE the more your shooting skills come into play.
As a side note and apologies if this is too basic: Shooting a "bulleye group" and a "group" are two different things. If I am trying to determine if it's my shooting skills or the rifle, I will keep my POA the same. If the pellets goes to the same place 5 shots in a row, I know I have to adjust my scope or POA on the next group. When you are continually changing your POA, you have no idea if it is you or the rifle.
Hope this helps,
Doc
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Hi Gang,
Wow, great advise and so quickly, i like this forum!
OK I have chrono'd and got a variation of 14 fps mostly from just a couple of odd shots. I would say 90-95 percent of shots where within 10 fps. I am thinking that is because I did not weigh the pellets first so I will weigh the pellets and redo the chronograph test.
I also have tried the Baracuda's 21 grain with descent results but not the magic pellet I had been lead to believe is out there (is this what they call a unicorn?).
I will have to locate a rifle vise to confirm it is not the barrel but from what I am hearing so far this rifle is probably within the companies specs and shoots good enough to pass quality control.
Do people believe that having the pellets sorted by weight is more important than size or vise a versa? Or is it like epoxy where you need both parts ( weight and size) before you get the desired end results?
Thanks!
Wow, great advise and so quickly, i like this forum!
OK I have chrono'd and got a variation of 14 fps mostly from just a couple of odd shots. I would say 90-95 percent of shots where within 10 fps. I am thinking that is because I did not weigh the pellets first so I will weigh the pellets and redo the chronograph test.
I also have tried the Baracuda's 21 grain with descent results but not the magic pellet I had been lead to believe is out there (is this what they call a unicorn?).
I will have to locate a rifle vise to confirm it is not the barrel but from what I am hearing so far this rifle is probably within the companies specs and shoots good enough to pass quality control.
Do people believe that having the pellets sorted by weight is more important than size or vise a versa? Or is it like epoxy where you need both parts ( weight and size) before you get the desired end results?
Thanks!
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Another basic thing (sorry if too obvious) is to clean the barrel. By more experience shooters than I, have told me to use lead cloth. The Daystate, I believe, has a Lothar Walther barrel which is quite accurate but may require to be "broken in", meaning you may have to shoot 500 to 1000 (or more) round to "break it in". From my own experience, it's takes awhile to get the feel of a new rifle before I get intune with it and discover all it's nuances. There may be nothing wrong, you may just have to keep shooting, and shooting , and shooting. Again, go to Straight Shoooters website and order their sampler pack. I found it fun to see what each pellet will do. It's alot cheaper than ordering a ton of tins that you can't use. Unfortunately the AA pellets are not in the pack. From many reviews, there is very little difference from the JSB's and AA pellets but you could get the 250 tins just to see what they will do. At 50 yards, you should be able to get 1/2 group consistently (with little wind) without sorting but maybe not eveytime. For me, the attraction of this hobby is the never ending check and balance of the rifle, pellet, and shooting skill of the shooter. Any one of the 3 will affect the results and widen your group. Like golfing, it can drive you crazy!
WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE! LOL
Best of luck,
Doc
WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE! LOL
Best of luck,
Doc
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I had better luck with the 16gr AA pellets. They were consistent out to 100 yards while the JSB were ok upto 75 yards. I still have a long way too in testing for best pellet/range in my Daystate MVT.
Also, Daystate's seem to like smaller head sizes better, like 5.52 or 5.51. My groups opened up considerably with larger head sizes, or the pellet was so large that didn't want to jam it inside the barrel. As far as head size, until you find the right head size(s) for your barrel weight is a smaller variable. You can plug in pellet weights into Chairgun and see the POI change at different ranges. Head size has a much larger impact on accuracy in some rifled barrels, while smooth twist barrels (what I read) are not that affected. The H&N pellets have a large head size variety, but again Daystate's mostly work with 5.51mm or 5.52mm. The new JSB's I believe are all 5.52 labeled.
The 10 fps velocity variation you are getting is ok,and pellet weight may account for that extra 4-5fps.
Also, Daystate's seem to like smaller head sizes better, like 5.52 or 5.51. My groups opened up considerably with larger head sizes, or the pellet was so large that didn't want to jam it inside the barrel. As far as head size, until you find the right head size(s) for your barrel weight is a smaller variable. You can plug in pellet weights into Chairgun and see the POI change at different ranges. Head size has a much larger impact on accuracy in some rifled barrels, while smooth twist barrels (what I read) are not that affected. The H&N pellets have a large head size variety, but again Daystate's mostly work with 5.51mm or 5.52mm. The new JSB's I believe are all 5.52 labeled.
The 10 fps velocity variation you are getting is ok,and pellet weight may account for that extra 4-5fps.
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I second NMShooter about cleaning the barrel. It can bring back accuracy, or at least help you establish a baseline to start from. Just allow to lead in again with a few shots.
Also, I have an older Daystate and my pellet probe o-ring was bad which allowed air to escape behind the pellet. Replacing it immediately restored accuracy. After some time the transfer port o-rings may need replacement too, at least in my MVT. Since you have a new rifle this may not affect you, but I would buy some pellet probe o-rings for the future.
I would also take off any LDCs for now while you are testing.
Also, I have an older Daystate and my pellet probe o-ring was bad which allowed air to escape behind the pellet. Replacing it immediately restored accuracy. After some time the transfer port o-rings may need replacement too, at least in my MVT. Since you have a new rifle this may not affect you, but I would buy some pellet probe o-rings for the future.
I would also take off any LDCs for now while you are testing.
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You groups sound about right for straight from the box rifle. And while you certainly need to check everything ( more airgun fun ) it may well come down to your barrel. "LW" is a decent barrel but that alone certainly doesn't mean 1/2" average groups at 50 in a production setting. One out of ten just wont be all that great, people pay tuners a lot of money finding the "best" barrel and you can bet it was hand lapped & such, something the production facility very likely does not do and can greatly improve the groups ( or ruin the barrel if done wrong).
Does it shoot one hole at say 25? How much does it open up at 100? Push a few pellets through and see if the choke marks are rather aggressive or not.
And give us a full report as you go.
John
Does it shoot one hole at say 25? How much does it open up at 100? Push a few pellets through and see if the choke marks are rather aggressive or not.
And give us a full report as you go.
John
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I remember a time when just being able to hit tin cans at 50 yards was acceptable. But now with the advancement of airguns, we are wanting more and more. However, with that being said, there is still one element which will always differ; the human element.
The others above have given you some great advise and knowledge. Additionally, your particular gun may not be able to give you the results you are searching for. But your groups are great no matter how you slice it.
But going back to the human element. The only person I have seen to completely take out that particular factor for testing is Dirt E Harry. His tests will show you exactly what the gun will do. But again keep in mind not all guns are created equally. Check out some of his videos if you haven't already done so. The link is below.
Keith.
https://www.youtube.com/user/1dirteharry/videos
The others above have given you some great advise and knowledge. Additionally, your particular gun may not be able to give you the results you are searching for. But your groups are great no matter how you slice it.
But going back to the human element. The only person I have seen to completely take out that particular factor for testing is Dirt E Harry. His tests will show you exactly what the gun will do. But again keep in mind not all guns are created equally. Check out some of his videos if you haven't already done so. The link is below.
Keith.
https://www.youtube.com/user/1dirteharry/videos
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After not shooting for about a month, I finally got out to shoot. Well…….. took 6 groups to get under 1/2 in at 50 yards. The difference between groups 4, 5, and 6 were ONE pellet per group. Groups 6-10 were .75 to 1 inch (wife was rushing me!…….that's my excuse). There was a moderate wind and I was aiming for bullseye groups so my POA varied from .5 to .75 in elevation and .25 and .5 for windage. I did not sort for pellets and shot a few with bent skirts.
FYI- the rifle is spot on, I was the largest variable and should have not shot the bent skirts. When I am shooting on a regular basis, I am certain I would shoot more groups under 1/2 in but probably not all. Spysir and Keith have given you great information.
Happy shooting,
Doc
FYI- the rifle is spot on, I was the largest variable and should have not shot the bent skirts. When I am shooting on a regular basis, I am certain I would shoot more groups under 1/2 in but probably not all. Spysir and Keith have given you great information.
Happy shooting,
Doc
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Hi Gang, Once again great posts!
I have around 2,000 rounds through the barrel. I had cleaned it once really good about 500 rounds ago. Some told me to not worry about cleaning it on a regular basis however others have told me to clean it on a regular basis so there seems to be many opinions on this matter. I have not tried lead clothe so would like to find some to try.
Have many people replaced the factory barrel of the Air Wolf? If so where would you order it or which tuner (person) would you recommend to work on the rifle if I choose to go that route.
Not sure what you meant when you said take off any LDC's when testing. I would guess you mean my shroud and moderator.
It does shoot mostly one hole at 30 but borderline (not a clean hole).
I need to find a nice scale to measure the weight of the bullet and something to measure the size of head. Any suggestions?
I will clean the barrel and post pictures of the groups once the wind has settled down.
I have around 2,000 rounds through the barrel. I had cleaned it once really good about 500 rounds ago. Some told me to not worry about cleaning it on a regular basis however others have told me to clean it on a regular basis so there seems to be many opinions on this matter. I have not tried lead clothe so would like to find some to try.
Have many people replaced the factory barrel of the Air Wolf? If so where would you order it or which tuner (person) would you recommend to work on the rifle if I choose to go that route.
Not sure what you meant when you said take off any LDC's when testing. I would guess you mean my shroud and moderator.
It does shoot mostly one hole at 30 but borderline (not a clean hole).
I need to find a nice scale to measure the weight of the bullet and something to measure the size of head. Any suggestions?
I will clean the barrel and post pictures of the groups once the wind has settled down.
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Like some mentioned earlier, if you are shooting 3/4in at 50 yards you are very close what the rifle or you can do. It's possible that the rifle performs perfectly and you need adjustments to your shooting. Or if you are shooting consistently great, the ammo and the rifle may need some minute tuning/sorting. If you are shooting almost a single hole at 30 yards, I do not think a new barrel is warranted. Especially not until some of the smaller variables like the ammo, head size can be dialed in or eliminated. Some pellets may fly great at 30 yards but may start becoming unstable at 50 or beyond. Need to know the velocity first of course. Some invested in a slow-motion camera setup that can become invaluable for long range shooting. A search here on this forum will lead you to some Casio Exilim or iPhone setups.
Cleaning may or may not make a difference, but does not hurt to make sure that is not a variable. The added on moderator, if you have one can be taken off if its screwed on, not talking about the shroud itself. If no moderator, no worries.
Ebay has various weight scale options for under $20, jewelry scale works that measures in grains with two decimal accuracy (0.01g). Here is an example, some may have their own preferences: http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-01g-200g-Gram-Mini-Digital-LCD-Balance-Weight-Pocket-Jewelry-Diamond-Scale-MY-/252186947645?hash=item3ab783703d:g:G-MAAOSwp5JWVzCM
For head size measurement some are using: http://pelletgage.com/
Cleaning may or may not make a difference, but does not hurt to make sure that is not a variable. The added on moderator, if you have one can be taken off if its screwed on, not talking about the shroud itself. If no moderator, no worries.
Ebay has various weight scale options for under $20, jewelry scale works that measures in grains with two decimal accuracy (0.01g). Here is an example, some may have their own preferences: http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-01g-200g-Gram-Mini-Digital-LCD-Balance-Weight-Pocket-Jewelry-Diamond-Scale-MY-/252186947645?hash=item3ab783703d:g:G-MAAOSwp5JWVzCM
For head size measurement some are using: http://pelletgage.com/
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Ok Gang, Some good news. This time when I cleaned the barrel I did see some improvement. I also now use single tray only and feel that I am now getting very close to what I was expecting. The only new thing other than clean the barrel was to separate some of the heavier pellets from the rest. My scale was only able to recognize the heaviest from the tin.
I will post again once I am able to better sort the head sizes and weights but it certainly looks like I am in the ball park now.
I am having an issue posting the picture of the target so if your interested in seeing it send me a message and I will send it to you in an email.
I will post again once I am able to better sort the head sizes and weights but it certainly looks like I am in the ball park now.
I am having an issue posting the picture of the target so if your interested in seeing it send me a message and I will send it to you in an email.
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Here are some tips on posting photos, unless you have some technical issues with your home setup.
http://airgunnation.dev/topic/video-tutorials-how-to-make-the-forum-work-for-you-2/
http://airgunnation.dev/topic/video-tutorials-how-to-make-the-forum-work-for-you-2/
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I can not figure out how to post picture so I will tell you the size of groups 10 shots before barrel cleaning and 10 shots after. The JSB 15.9 pellets were weighed and only the heaviest culled out. None were separated by size. Used only the single tray and no magazine was used.
Before: .64, 1.17, .97, .59, .72, .90, .47, .52, .59, .57
After: .62, .49, .39, .66, .88, .40, .62, .33 .58, .71,.71
It is starting to shape up. Maybe the barrel needed some breaking in? Really looking forward to sorting some pellets and see what groups I can get.
Before: .64, 1.17, .97, .59, .72, .90, .47, .52, .59, .57
After: .62, .49, .39, .66, .88, .40, .62, .33 .58, .71,.71
It is starting to shape up. Maybe the barrel needed some breaking in? Really looking forward to sorting some pellets and see what groups I can get.
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I would be happy with those groups, especially if shot outdoors. I think it's important to seek consistency and not only smaller shot groups sizes. Looks like your group sizes have less variation now after the cleaning.
I think trying different head sizes will let you settle on the best pellet (let it be 5.51, .5.52 or whatever) and this is where you could gain the most. While weight sorting pellets does not hurt, it may only provide marginally better consistency at 50 yards distance. Try the AA 16gr pellets. My rifle did better than with JSBs. The 18gr was the same as JSBs.
Then again, don't forget the variable of the shooter either. This is one thing I need to work on too
I think trying different head sizes will let you settle on the best pellet (let it be 5.51, .5.52 or whatever) and this is where you could gain the most. While weight sorting pellets does not hurt, it may only provide marginally better consistency at 50 yards distance. Try the AA 16gr pellets. My rifle did better than with JSBs. The 18gr was the same as JSBs.
Then again, don't forget the variable of the shooter either. This is one thing I need to work on too
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Ok thanks. Do you think that once I find the best diameter pellet for the barrel then several different pellets or weights of pellets may work as long as the diameter is the same?
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