New EFT target design

[rob_g]

Tell me more about hit indicators.
This might be feasible for our future competitions in Peru!
Thanks,

Matthias

Different companies make them but Hornady seems to have the most cost effective unit I've found.

Hornady Accurate Deadly Dependable. HIT® Target Impact Indicator

Ultra-bright light indicates bullet impact on distant steel targets. • Visible up to 1000+ yards with naked eye (weather-dependent). • Easily attaches to most stands with included elastic band. • Rechargeable using micro-USB. • Morse code "H-I-T" blinks for impact distinction •••• •• −. •...

store.hornady.com

 

[steve123]

Everything has upsides and downsides, right?.

A EFT target as well as a FT target can malfunction in a number of ways. Those of us shooting in these comps have seen most of them.
Not in order of prominence.
Screws or bolts coming loose.
Screws slightly tight or mechanisms rusty causing binding so the target fails to fall all the way.
Strings or clips popping off so target can't be reset.
Target is loose meaning not attached to the ground or whatever else it's fastened too. Might or might not fall.
Very slight splits on face can allow a target to fall anyway. I've watched this more than once because I saw the paint come off on edge of the faceplate where I hit.
One time there was a hole in the paddle that I didn't see and I shot through it both shots. That was a real head scratcher until someone else noticed the hole and alerted a RO.
There's more I'm sure.....

A spinner.
With a spinner the outside of the pellet, if barely contacting it, will move the spinner a tiny bit. This may or may not be noticed by a person spotting. I've been bit by this a few times where points were lost or in a speed event the wiggle of a hit was not acknowledged.
Or I hit the stem holding the spinner which shouldn't be called a hit.
But no strings needed which saves time and effort in a number of ways.
No question a well made spinner is more reliable than a more complicated mechanism.
Often it's easier to see where one misses in the dirt behind the spinner vs not seeing where one missed on a shot up FT target so a sighting correction can be made.
A larger caliber will be at a slight disadvantage on a faceplate which is the same size as a spinner. A smaller caliber will have a slight disadvantage on a spinner target. A spinner can be sized smaller to approximate the same difficulty as a faceplate hole.
However if everybody were all shooting the same course what difference does it make what we are all shooting at, KZ's or Spinners. Someone is going to win regardless.

As much as I like EFT and FT targets, I like spinners more. I also like bell targets more than EFT and FT targets. I love the ding and the spin and no strings or ropes to deal with.

A light indicator is a interesting way to go about recognizing hits. I'm not sure a light going off when there's a hit matches the excitement of hitting a spinner or knocking down a EFT target though.
Plus batteries need to be replaced and at some point the flashers will start malfunctioning or break as well as other potential problems that have been mentioned.
Kinda feel flashers are better for ELR than inside 100Y.

Hey combine them all and it'd be like a EFT arcade.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Everything has upsides and downsides, right?.

A EFT target as well as a FT target can malfunction in a number of ways. Those of us shooting in these comps have seen most of them.
Not in order of prominence.
Screws or bolts coming loose.
Screws slightly tight or mechanisms rusty causing binding so the target fails to fall all the way.
Strings or clips popping off so target can't be reset.
Target is loose meaning not attached to the ground or whatever else it's fastened too. Might or might not fall.
Very slight splits on face can allow a target to fall anyway. I've watched this more than once because I saw the paint come off on edge of the faceplate where I hit.
One time there was a hole in the paddle that I didn't see and I shot through it both shots. That was a real head scratcher until someone else noticed the hole and alerted a RO.
There's more I'm sure.....

A spinner.
With a spinner the outside of the pellet, if barely contacting it, will move the spinner a tiny bit. This may or may not be noticed by a person spotting. I've been bit by this a few times where points were lost or in a speed event the wiggle of a hit was not acknowledged.
Or I hit the stem holding the spinner which shouldn't be called a hit.
But no strings needed which saves time and effort in a number of ways.
No question a well made spinner is more reliable than a more complicated mechanism.
Often it's easier to see where one misses in the dirt behind the spinner vs not seeing where one missed on a shot up FT target so a sighting correction can be made.
A larger caliber will be at a slight disadvantage on a faceplate which is the same size as a spinner. A smaller caliber will have a slight disadvantage on a spinner target. A spinner can be sized smaller to approximate the same difficulty as a faceplate hole.
However if everybody were all shooting the same course what difference does it make what we are all shooting at, KZ's or Spinners. Someone is going to win regardless.

As much as I like EFT and FT targets, I like spinners more. I also like bell targets more than EFT and FT targets. I love the ding and the spin and no strings or ropes to deal with.

A light indicator is a interesting way to go about recognizing hits. I'm not sure a light going off when there's a hit matches the excitement of hitting a spinner or knocking down a EFT target though.
Plus batteries need to be replaced and at some point the flashers will start malfunctioning or break as well as other potential problems that have been mentioned.
Kinda feel flashers are better for ELR than inside 100Y.

Hey combine them all and it'd be like a EFT arcade.

Hi Steve,
I agree that the best way that is not techy is the spinner. That's what we use for our extreme matches. We have to collect the lead because we are next to a creek, so we have the spinners in boxes and have a metal angled back that we paint white and the spinner red. That allows the shooter to see their miss or hit. It has worked well.

But, the lights, although they are more work and hard to get setup so they are dependable, I think they should be worth it in the long run with the right design which I haven't really seen as yet. What we did works well but it's not affordable for 25 targets on a field target course... we only have 5 set up at 145 to 300 yards. I am surprised how long the rechargeable batteries last. We left them on after the match in May, and they still were working last week when we went over there to practice!

Here is a link to the match report that has some photos of the targets. https://hardairmagazine.com/news/2024-extreme-air-gun-challenge/

 

[Scotty-D]

It seems like OKC airgunners are using the auto reset targets from Pauls Custom Targets for their EFT Matches. He ( Paul ) had some at the Cajun Classic, I bought one and it seems to work well. Don't know how they would stand up to the high power used in ERT but certainly is another option to explore and they are around $50 -$60 ea. and you have to shoot through a hole to hit paddle. They could give more feedback on the targets.

 

[steve123]

Hi Steve,
I agree that the best way that is not techy is the spinner. That's what we use for our extreme matches. We have to collect the lead because we are next to a creek, so we have the spinners in boxes and have a metal angled back that we paint white and the spinner red. That allows the shooter to see their miss or hit. It has worked well.

But, the lights, although they are more work and hard to get setup so they are dependable, I think they should be worth it in the long run with the right design which I haven't really seen as yet. What we did works well but it's not affordable for 25 targets on a field target course... we only have 5 set up at 145 to 300 yards. I am surprised how long the rechargeable batteries last. We left them on after the match in May, and they still were working last week when we went over there to practice!

Here is a link to the match report that has some photos of the targets. https://hardairmagazine.com/news/2024-extreme-air-gun-challenge/

View attachment 487240

I loved your match Wayne and of course the spinners! If I lived closer.......

 

[Airgunoregon]

It seems like OKC airgunners are using the auto reset targets from Pauls Custom Targets for their EFT Matches. He ( Paul ) had some at the Cajun Classic, I bought one and it seems to work well. Don't know how they would stand up to the high power used in ERT but certainly is another option to explore and they are around $50 -$60 ea. and you have to shoot through a hole to hit paddle. They could give more feedback on the targets.

Auto Resettable targets are great! But I think we might find that they will cost about the same as a flashing hit light set up when you upsize them to Extreme 100fpe status. And that's probably only if you keep the face plates small around the larger kill zones... auto resetting a 10-15 pound face plate will take upgraded hardware. Keeping the faceplate about 1" bigger on average larger than the kill zone would make resetting hardware more affordable.

I don't know which design will turn out better, I like falling targets, but spinners are better for EFT imho, and I like flashing lights a lot too.. I'll be happy with either that clubs can afford and work reliably. So far from what I've seen and tested, spinners are the most reliable and NO STRINGS!

 

[blueflax]

I think that flashing hit indicators give us an opportunity to liven up our airgun competitions. Whether they are suitable for every target in a 20-target layout depends on their utility and cost. That remains to be seen.

Reading over my post, it sounds like we used our flashing target in an EFT competition. We did not. We used the target in a side match that told the story of a 19th century train robbery. It called for two shots on the strongbox lock, and two more that had to go through the key hole to count for the score. Hits on the lock resulted in flashing lights. Also, we did have one split, which we felt did result in a flashing light. While we did stake down the two wooden frames separately, the wooden pieces were in contact with each other.

We did shoot this target with the rifles we used on the EFT course. They ranged from 40 to 70 foot pounds.

David Read did all our design and fabrication. He used mild steel for the face and the actuator plate. Dave feels that the fun factor was well worth building the target.

The strongbox still has secrets to unlock.

Please see the photos below.

Ron

 

[scotton]

Very clever. From talking with PRS rimfire match directors, they tend to favor the Hornady indicators over the Caldwell. The reason is that the Caldwells flash for 10 seconds, so some shooters would game this to make quick shots appear as hits that may not be hits. The Hornadys flash for 2 or 3 seconds.

I have no doubt that most splits will set off the indicator if the pellet reaches the impact plate. Yesterday I saw a false indication on a 326 yard target where the 22lr bullet hit short and skipped to the target. It didn't have a lot of steam when it hit the target, but a gentle underhand toss of a 40 grain bullet would do the trick. I also saw a short shot knock a piece of dirt onto the target and it didn't set off the indicator. So I think mass matters.

I feel like splits are an important part of FT. It's the notion that if you don't hit the target cleanly, it's probably not going to work out in your favor. If we can't figure out a way to reduce the ability of splits to set off the indicator, we might as well shoot spinners or gongs. Although, with regular EFT targets, I've noticed that shooting a heavy .30 pellet at 95 fpe tends to help with splits compared to a light .22 pellet.

One downside to using gongs and spinners is that now you need a spotter. So in addition to every thing else we are lugging around, add a tripod and binos. Based on the average age of the eyeballs in FT, I think hit indicators are a better idea than gongs. If we could figure out the split thing, even better.

I just had an idea that someone else would need to test. What if you bevel the inside edge of the kill zone? Basically reduce the rim thickness of the edge of the kill zone so the pellet can't glide along the edge of the kill zone. So the bevel would be on the back of the face plate. That might get us back to "normal EFT target" levels of split success. Let's say a pellet that catches 10% of the edge of the kill zone is a 90% split. A 90% split is going to knock down the target most of the time, EFT or AAFTA. If we could get to the point where a 75% or lower split has a low chance of recording a hit, I think that would be a success.

 

[CurtisNelson]

The edges of the hole make hitting the target more difficult.

Many a "split" target in the years of field target.

Shooting "spinners" is easier. A very slight edge hit will show up on a spinner, where that same shot on a kill zone will count for exactly 0 points ( a MISS!!!).

So a 2” XFT KZ = 1.75 spinner? 1.625? Not difficult to overcome.
I see your point but a split from a 12 or 20 ft lb gun is entirely different to a split from a 70-90 ft lb gun. I doubt a .30 cal would fail to tip an XFT target if it hit less than 50% on the face plate. Just saying apples and oranges. not trying to convert XFT to spinners, but someone trying to start an XFT match has a MIGHTY big investment to make. If you set an XFT course with targets that would register a hit at minimal Ft lb required, a .177 could try the course. Or slug guns that wouldn’t ruin the expensive XFT target could try their hand. ??? A casual OPEN match with all comers regardless of equipment limitations. Could be pretty fun….
177 slugs “competing” with 30 cal pellets? I’d love to give it a whirl. Of course, you’d have to keep the prize money out to keep it from getting too “serious”…

 

[Franklink]

So a 2” XFT KZ = 1.75 spinner? 1.625? Not difficult to overcome.
I see your point but a split from a 12 or 20 ft lb gun is entirely different to a split from a 70-90 ft lb gun. I doubt a .30 cal would fail to tip an XFT target if it hit less than 50% on the face plate. Just saying apples and oranges. not trying to convert XFT to spinners, but someone trying to start an XFT match has a MIGHTY big investment to make. If you set an XFT course with targets that would register a hit at minimal Ft lb required, a .177 could try the course. Or slug guns that wouldn’t ruin the expensive XFT target could try their hand. ??? A casual OPEN match with all comers regardless of equipment limitations. Could be pretty fun….
177 slugs “competing” with 30 cal pellets? I’d love to give it a whirl. Of course, you’d have to keep the prize money out to keep it from getting too “serious”…

Im not against spinners, and will always root for the underdog (ESPECIALLY if it means a small bore airgun kicking a big bores butt).

With my comment I was pointing out that the slightest little nick will wiggle a spinner. So are wiggles counted? Or does it need to do a full revolution (cuz then you're back to higher power being beneficial). Counting wiggles is a slippery slope. Guy shoots, "I saw it wiggle in the scope!!!" The guy scoring says the opposite. With an actual field target there's no gray area, it either goes down or it doesn't. There are sometimes paddle hits that don't go down, which is a bummer and muddies the waters. If it consistent doesn't go down for everyone, the match director usually throws out that target.

I've got steel paddles that live at 50-90 and then another set at 130 yards. I shoot at them from 19-55fpe and there are very often the slightest little hits that make em wiggle.

Field target has traditionally been shot with kill zones (shoot through the hole). It's as much a primary part of the game as standing and offhand shots. Of course there are guys who want those to go away too.

If a club wants to put on spinner matches cuz they can't afford field targets I think it's great. More opportunities to shoot is always better than less opportunities to shoot. There would just need to be some ground rules laid as to what counts as a "hit" and what doesn't. And maybe spotting scopes at each lane to help the scorer keep the shooter honest.

 

[XSUltimate]

Swarovski spotting scopes for everyone!!
Thx
Dan

 

[JungleShooter]

This thread is getting better and better — lots of ideas for me to process for designing competitions for the airgunners in Peru.
THANK YOU!!


Not to derail this thread — I'll ask my question about target design separately, here:

➠

Target Design: What Do You Recommend — for High (and Low) Power Airguns?

What Target Design Do You Recommend for Competitions — for High and Low Powered Airguns together? I'm looking to design airgun competitions for a growing airgun association in Peru. And I would like to start with a clean slate — considering the power and technology that became available in...

www.airgunnation.com

Would you mind checking it out?
Thanks.

Matthias

 

[CurtisNelson]

Im not against spinners, and will always root for the underdog (ESPECIALLY if it means a small bore airgun kicking a big bores butt).

With my comment I was pointing out that the slightest little nick will wiggle a spinner. So are wiggles counted? Or does it need to do a full revolution (cuz then you're back to higher power being beneficial). Counting wiggles is a slippery slope. Guy shoots, "I saw it wiggle in the scope!!!" The guy scoring says the opposite. With an actual field target there's no gray area, it either goes down or it doesn't. There are sometimes paddle hits that don't go down, which is a bummer and muddies the waters. If it consistent doesn't go down for everyone, the match director usually throws out that target.

I've got steel paddles that live at 50-90 and then another set at 130 yards. I shoot at them from 19-55fpe and there are very often the slightest little hits that make em wiggle.

Field target has traditionally been shot with kill zones (shoot through the hole). It's as much a primary part of the game as standing and offhand shots. Of course there are guys who want those to go away too.

If a club wants to put on spinner matches cuz they can't afford field targets I think it's great. More opportunities to shoot is always better than less opportunities to shoot. There would just need to be some ground rules laid as to what counts as a "hit" and what doesn't. And maybe spotting scopes at each lane to help the scorer keep the shooter honest.

Thanks, Franklink. All excellent points to consider. I love the way responses on AGN are thoughtful and considered.

This year in Tulsa, we have established an AAFTA club with monthly matches. Now we are considering all the options for next steps. Pistol Matches? Bench rest? Long range FT? We have space but no more $ for targets. Spinners are cheaper and more durable and we prob. don't have enough slug shooters for a class by itself. We like to keep things laid back and low stress - life has enough of that anyways.

OKC has done an EXCELLENT job getting their "XFT" matches going with self resetting targets that members are designing and building themselves to minimize costs. They have amazing facilities and amazing/engaged members all pulling together. OKC should be on everyone's to do list. I think a key (as previously mentioned) is the faceplates are not large/animal shaped. In the beginning, everyone brought Bino's to observe hits/misses but now, we skip them as they are not necessary. We have no knock down drag out arguments over how much did the target move/ was that a hit or miss. Lower powered guns don't tip the target like a 30Cal does and that's cool. There is no prize money so that keeps everyone in the "fun zone". The scorer has the last say. (we all recognize that we all have the "I KNOW I hit that one" reflex that is usually wrong). That reflex is stronger the more $$$ is on the line.

Soapbox warning: Sponsor money attracts MORE shooters when spent on door prizes and give-away's than when spent boosting paydays for the limited number of Top shooters. (If you want more than just the top shooters traveling to out of town shoots.) *steps down*

OKC gives really cool Poker chip sized awards for 1-3. Tulsa will prob. eventually do the same. Bonus: I won't have to add on another room just to house all my trophies!


(I think we all got into shooting for the fun/cool factor, not the "I'm the best" factor) - Big match paydays attract the "I'm the best" crowd, not the "lets have fun" crowd.... Oops, soapbox again. *steps down*

Curtis

 

[Franklink]

Thanks, Franklink. All excellent points to consider. I love the way responses on AGN are thoughtful and considered.

This year in Tulsa, we have established an AAFTA club with monthly matches. Now we are considering all the options for next steps. Pistol Matches? Bench rest? Long range FT? We have space but no more $ for targets. Spinners are cheaper and more durable and we prob. don't have enough slug shooters for a class by itself. We like to keep things laid back and low stress - life has enough of that anyways.

OKC has done an EXCELLENT job getting their "XFT" matches going with self resetting targets that members are designing and building themselves to minimize costs. They have amazing facilities and amazing/engaged members all pulling together. OKC should be on everyone's to do list. I think a key (as previously mentioned) is the faceplates are not large/animal shaped. In the beginning, everyone brought Bino's to observe hits/misses but now, we skip them as they are not necessary. We have no knock down drag out arguments over how much did the target move/ was that a hit or miss. Lower powered guns don't tip the target like a 30Cal does and that's cool. There is no prize money so that keeps everyone in the "fun zone". The scorer has the last say. (we all recognize that we all have the "I KNOW I hit that one" reflex that is usually wrong). That reflex is stronger the more $$$ is on the line.

Soapbox warning: Sponsor money attracts MORE shooters when spent on door prizes and give-away's than when spent boosting paydays for the limited number of Top shooters. (If you want more than just the top shooters traveling to out of town shoots.) *steps down*

OKC gives really cool Poker chip sized awards for 1-3. Tulsa will prob. eventually do the same. Bonus: I won't have to add on another room just to house all my trophies!


(I think we all got into shooting for the fun/cool factor, not the "I'm the best" factor) - Big match paydays attract the "I'm the best" crowd, not the "lets have fun" crowd.... Oops, soapbox again. *steps down*

Curtis

View attachment 487792

I've had some conversations in PM with Randy and those OKC matches sound like a fun bunch. I've got a sister that lives in OKC and would like to attend one of their matches if I can ever make it fit with a trip out there.

A couple years ago I was a vocal proponent for sponsored matches. On the surface prize money sounds like a great thing. Creates more excitement, more incentive, and makes it nice for the winners to get back some of what they've paid to pay the game. But my stance on that has gradually changed to be much less in favor, for all the reasons you stated, and a couple others as well. To keep it short, I've seen enough in the last few years to conclude that the cons of sponsored matches outweigh the pros of sponsored matches.

 

[Solo1]

We’re shooting hp field target with a max of 80 fpe shooting gamo targets with 1/4” mild steel faceplates and 3/8” mild steel welded to the paddles and they have held up since last year. The only thing we really need to do now is to make spools for the strings so you can wind them up with a drill!

 

[CurtisNelson]

Look up kite string winders on Amazon. We use them in Tulsa and Oklahoma City. Very slick and quick to wind up. We use these:

https://www.amazon.com/CertBuy-Winder-Outdoor-Flying-Accessories/dp/B097YKJR8Z/ref=sr_1_22?crid=1JDBHTLD7IP72&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.daadqtrmUClwDU-h13g2mYM7fyWyC3jgLJHEW0hhQ-hFFhXBaqa_BmnKja2ImAOHzASXSX3zESx4ph05YbTtDlyiyFd4oU_v4C7j6udE2LXcl_P-qSuSkQq5V9vFohy3MViY3oBRMcNoZCrX8aabqXQ-3cQOuO3m_ke3LcaLxKDtu2-nxZbxPy3MIMUvr-St2fbyPzY8Mgq2lokqRB5SiYHGqyBUlxfKtIZgD3UnItciNVM4le8MuX3NBduD_xMt2-QRVYsGOaF6uUSaXo8RS7yB4PkCNXqGuoCm3fWH_ko.-ZyfLiwo2iWEgh31Q0qgaJitzkJPqzLVlb0mUhEY3qY&dib_tag=se&keywords=kite+string+winder&qid=1723535219&sprefix=kite+winder%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-22