New guy hunting questions. FX DREAM-TACT COMPACT

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jbird22cal

jbird22cal

Member
Jul 2, 2022
27
3
Wisconsin
Hello all,

I have some questions... This will likely be a long thread and in my past forum exploits I should know not to make this long of a post because people stop reading about 1/4 the way through, I have highlighted questions. I've been searching for answers for the last week with Google and this forums search function... here I am without answers.

That being said. I am looking to buy my first PCP. I have a Crossman/Mendoza r77 springer that meets 40% of my needs but when facing nuisance critters it just does not have the performance. I donated a .177 Crossman wad cutter to one of 4 racoons the other night and it appears all I did was ruin his evening for a while.. So the problems...

First a racoon or opossum are very determined critters. In the past I just used 22 LR or 12 gage to hunt or remove them from the buildings but since most encounters are in concrete and tin buildings its been the 12 gage with very strategic firing lanes with me physically running after them or setting up ambushes. I can no longer use the 12g because the buildings have been filled up with shotgun sensitive items and desirable animals along with me not being young enough to run them down like I used to.

I tried doing some searching. For power requirements every forum/article parrots at least 25 FPE for coon.... thats all fine and dandy but no one appears to have minimum FPE to gage effective range. So...

Does anyone know the effective FPE of a projectile against a racoon at distance?

22LR looked to be effective on racoons up to about 200 feet back when I hunted them with dogs but its a lot of work to reverse engineer the data . Especially without B.C. of the ammo I used over a decade ago. I know around 39 grains at 900-1000 fps or whatever 22 CB short someone handed me in the dark in suburban areas to be quiet.. That is going to be a problem with my gaging this whole deal.

Opossums aperantly require the 50 BMG because I've hit them with my car at 70 mph and they've rolled along just to get up and wonder off after the inconvenience... but I think what would work on a coon would apply with proper shot placement.

I'm a firearm guy looking at the airgun world the same way a GM mechanic looks at a Dodge vehicle. These both go down the road but what does that do and how does it work? Exterior ballistics is something I research while reloading for my bigger firearms and I research it a lot.

I reached out to Utah Airguns with my dilemma and they recommended the FX wildcat and the FX tact compact both in .22. The wildcat is is a bull pup and whether or not its the same or not. I HATE bull pup triggers and ergonomics on firearms. The added barrel length may be helpful in this case.

With the nature of the engagements in buildings and the availability and price of 22 LR ammunition offerings locally I am investigating possible replacement of the 22LR with PCP. My other uses are starling removal from my house area, squirrel hunting, rabbit hunting, and general plinking. I'm hoping for a crossover because this FX rivals the prices I've paid firearms including 22LR race guns.

The compactness, folding stock for cow stansion traversal and adjustability of the dream-tact compact is appealing along with its modularity similar to the scary black rifle making news regularly. However when it comes to the scary black rifles. I build them for one purpose and leave them set that way. Its only downside is that the dream-tact compact is 1 pound to heavy and doesn't have much for 2 point slings and lights. Any ideas?

What I can not figure out is if it will do double duty without out major modifications.

How much can I get out of a tune by just setting it to low and changing the hammer spring without touching the screw?

So this unit will apparently turn down with the dial. Seperate from that adjustment screw. The manual doesn't get to specific on any of this.

What is the average velocity of this thing with its preffered pellet on low? It appears everyone buys a small gun and tries to tune it like a big gun and this information is hard to come by.

Because I need to turn this down for inside buildings to reduce over penetration and ricochet I was contemplating a lower weight slug as a possibilty while the twist rate (unknown) may not stabilize this perfectly and at this velocity if the slug doesn't tumble or break the pellet probe the added weight might increase the FPE enough to be effective at 20 feet against these ornery little thieves at low velocity.

So my other questions on this unit are:

Is it worth while to carry a seperate stock tank while hunting? Or so these lose a lot of pressure when changing them? I do not like the bottle.

What is the stock twist rate?

What is the stock non adjusted trigger pull weight to break at the second stage? It appears to be not adjustable for take up weight just travel. My favorite 2 stage trigger is 2 pound take up on the short travel distance with a 4-5 pound second stage break. This allows for finding the trigger and feeling it set with thin gloves on. It gets cold here.

What is everyone favorite method of a compressor that doesn't require a mortgage or and addition to the house?

Is there a cost effective optic brand that doesn't lose zero? Otherwise I will stick with my home states brand of Vortex.

Thanks in advance.
 
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I have a Dreamline in .25 tuned for 47fpe with JSB 25.39gr. Turn the dial from 3 to 1 and now I'm sitting at 25fpe. On setting 3 I have used it to take raccoons, groundhogs, and even a few fox between 50-60yds. I've found shots to the side of the head to be the "gimme" shot placement on raccoons and groundhogs. It will drop them where they stand 100% of the time.

As far as slugs go, I really don't see any reason for you to spend the extra money or time even trying to deal with those. They can be finicky and your gun will be pretty picky with what works well. Pellets will do the job just fine at half the cost.

For a scope Vortex works absolutely fine but I prefer Athlon. Same great warranty and I find the scopes to just punch at a higher level than Vortex these days.

Also, you were correct in your opening statement. I made it 25% of the way through before my ADD kicked in and just started skimming for key words. If I missed anything, let me know!
 
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Glem.Chally said:
Shot placement is everything, as a rule head shots require way less energy. For example 25fpe with a shot to the head (side of head) will drop a Raccoon in its tracks. Body shot will take much more. So tough to give blanket statements about fpe/for x game.
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Understandable. I was just hoping for subjective observations or a rule of thumb.

Like they say, if we ignore the bullet and terminal ballistics of it like sectional density, construction. Etc.

1000 fps, 1000 ft pounds will adequately kill a white tail on heart/lung where as I think the numbers are 1200, 1200 on elk in the same manner. Something like that. Can you go outside these numbers? Absolutely! Archery and muzzle loaders are proof of this. But archery and muzzle loading like air guns are a little more dependent on shot placement being exact. Where as with centerfire I look at that data because its also close to the destabilization plane when it crosses the sound barrier. But I go with what the bullet manufacture tells me what their testing shows for reliable expansion. Its usually a shorter distance than the general rule due to energy transfer upon reaching the target.

I've run some of the numbers with published velocity data and estimated B.C. of the Hades pellets found with a few Google searches. I have no idea how accurate they are and B.C. varies with many variable inputs. It looks to be around .022 or .023 on what I'm guessing is a G1 model due to the nature of the projectiles is rather short in the .22 caliber 15.89 grain range.

With such a low B.C. at subsonic speeds the velocity decay is fairly substantial therfore so is the FPE.

I used the chair gun android app because my normal calculators do not like these small b.c. and show the fpe numbers at 1/2 the value.

A 22 caliber pellet at 850 fps at 832 ft above sea level is 25.5 fpe at the muzzle but 14.6 at 50 yards. So where is that 50 yards can one have confidence in the shot with proper placement.

Racoons are tough. A .357 158 grain semi wad cutter at 650 fps hits hard and penetrates well but it doesn't stop a coon that fast up close.
 
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jbird22cal said:
Understandable. I was just hoping for subjective observations or a rule of thumb.

Like they say, if we ignore the bullet and terminal ballistics of it like sectional density, construction. Etc.

1000 fps, 1000 ft pounds will adequately kill a white tail on heart/lung where as I think the numbers are 1200, 1200 on elk in the same manner. Something like that. Can you go outside these numbers? Absolutely! Archery and muzzle loaders are proof of this. But archery and muzzle loading like air guns are a little more dependent on shot placement being exact. Where as with centerfire I look at that data because its also close to the destabilization plane when it crosses the sound barrier. But I go with what the bullet manufacture tells me what their testing shows for reliable expansion. Its usually a shorter distance than the general rule due to energy transfer upon reaching the target.

I've run some of the numbers with published velocity data and estimated B.C. of the Hades pellets found with a few Google searches. I have no idea how accurate they are and B.C. varies with many variable inputs. It looks to be around .022 or .023 on what I'm guessing is a G1 model due to the nature of the projectiles is rather short in the .22 caliber 15.89 grain range.

With such a low B.C. at subsonic speeds the velocity decay is fairly substantial therfore so is the FPE.

I used the chair gun android app because my normal calculators do not like these small b.c. and show the fpe numbers at 1/2 the value.

A 22 caliber pellet at 850 fps at 832 ft above sea level is 25.5 fpe at the muzzle but 14.6 at 50 yards. So where is that 50 yards can one have confidence in the shot with proper placement.

Racoons are tough. A .357 158 grain semi wad cutter at 650 fps hits hard and penetrates well but it doesn't stop a coon that fast up close.
Click to expand...
I think you're overthinking it some. Even at 50yds, a raccoons brain is roughly a 4moa target. Even on its worst day, a Dreamline is a 2moa gun at that range. Realistically, its sub moa at 50. This is part of my reasoning for mentioning the .25 cal before. With a BC of .035, your range has been extended fairly significantly on tougher critters like raccoons without dealing with the hassle of slugs.

Here are some example (all right at 50yds)

https://www.reddit.com/r/airgunhunting/comments/mde7cr

https://www.reddit.com/r/airgunhunting/comments/mdggc7

https://www.reddit.com/r/airgunhunting/comments/mltgmd
 
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Sqwirlfugger57 said:
Its possible that I over think some. So you're recommending the .25 over the. 22? This was a consideration but with the short barrel I was afraid that the .25 would be to slow when I need to tune it down. The biggest issue I need this for is shots under 20 feet on racoons. Everything else would need the power. I do not know if the power plenum works with the compact barrel shroud.
Click to expand...
 
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I like .25 cal. Its an excellent caliber for small game and plinking reasons. It won't blow apart a squirrel (or even a mouse, I've tried lol) but still has enough oomph behind it for bigger game. Plus ammo is still relatively cheap. And available unlike the larger bore options.

That being said, I've taken groundhogs and raccoons with sub 17fpe .22 springers at 30yds. A .22 PCP putting out 25+ fpe will do fine out to 50yds. Its all about the shooter putting that pellet where it needs to go. Smaller pellet, smaller margin for error.

The only reason I really reiterated the .25 cal was because you didn't really seem sure of yourself at 50yds. A little bit of practice with a .22 will build all the confidence you need.
 
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Sqwirlfugger57​


Understood. I've dealt with coon with 22lr and from what I gathered the .25 pcp is closer than the 22lr. Head shot usually works ok. Heart shot and they would fall from the tree and fight the hounds for quite a while... the hounds always won but back then the dogs earned their keep because you could buy a lot of dog food with pelt prices. Not so much anymore.

I'm more interest in what the gun does. I have not committed to this purchase yet. But for this very close quarter work. 5 feet (poor shot opportunity) at the beginning of this weekend I'm very concerned about 2 much power.

Even .22 CB shorts are to powerful for this situation or at least the ones I have. Against squirrels my range out of most off the rack squirrel carbines is a lot lower but at the ranges I am currently investigating 5-20 feet. The CB short would be on the side of to much. Hence the thought of one of these FX hybrid slugs to bridge the gap.

I just do not have experiance with PCP at all. Only one guy I know has a PCP, an impact, and he got it last week. Its performance is where I like to see but not in this case.
 
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I think your overthinking it a bit... its good to have all your ducks in a row as your clearly trying to do... I own a dreamline compact with 177, 22 and 25 barrel kits. The 22 has always been my favorite.. I have it installed now. Tuned to shoot 17.5gr slugs...coons have been trying to raid my chicken/guinea coop. I'm shooting in a open area so I use slugs... when I shoot in the barn at pigeons I use pellets.. even if the pellets exist they very rarely will even dent the roof... for the "inside job" 16gr pellets work perfectly... I've had no problems taking coons (head shots) inside the barn with pellets.. if they do exit... "if".. the pellets loose energy fast... I haven't yet damaged anything in my barn but the unwanted animal I've taken
 
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Well thanks everyone. It looks like the Achilles heel of all of this is a reliable air source.

I got most things worked out with your help. But I do not want to mess with the YH setups to fill to small 170cc bottles and my shoulders will not tolerate a hand pump.

I have a few friends on the fire department but I'm not confident that would work out. The nearest dive shop is to far away and all that is left is one of 2 paintball fields.
 
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Jason,

you were asking about scopes.
Coming from the firearms world a 10 yard parallax setting doesn't seem important, but as your targets as up to 5y close, you want to make sure you scopes are able to focus close (say 10y or 15y).

In the past I have been on several scope searches, and it was frustrating when I wanted to find only scopes that had a close range parallax (10-15y).
➔
So, I ended up making a Scope Specs Table for my preferred magnification range (6-24x at the time). I included all the relevant specs to be able to compare scopes quickly.

And then I was looking for a 4-16x/ 3-18x — and another Scope Specs Table was born.
And when I wanted something really short and light (3-12x/ 3-9x), a third Table saw the light.

I attach them below.

Each includes info on the type of warranty, prices, mil or moa, IR, sorted by FFP vs. SFP, etc. Most of them are around $500, some more, some less.


Cheers,

Matthias


❌ 3 Attachments:
3 Scope Specs Tables
(1) 6-24x / 5-30x / 4-20x
(2) 4-16x / 3-18x / 4-20x
(3) SHORT —or— 3-12x / 3-9x

View attachment SCOPE Specs Table. For 6-24x (5-25x) or 5-30x or 4-20x.pdf

View attachment SCOPE Specs Table. For 4-16x or 3-18x or 4-20x Scopes.pdf

View attachment SCOPE Specs Table. For SHORT Scopes -and- 3-12x (3-9x) Scopes.pdf
 
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JungleShooter said:
Jason,

you were asking about scopes.
Coming from the firearms world a 10 yard parallax setting doesn't seem important, but as your targets as up to 5y close, you want to make sure you scopes are able to focus close (say 10y or 15y).

In the past I have been on several scope searches, and it was frustrating when I wanted to find only scopes that had a close range parallax (10-15y).
➔
So, I ended up making a Scope Specs Table for my preferred magnification range (6-24x at the time). I included all the relevant specs to be able to compare scopes quickly.

And then I was looking for a 4-16x/ 3-18x — and another Scope Specs Table was born.
And when I wanted something really short and light (3-12x/ 3-9x), a third Table saw the light.

I attach them below.

Each includes info on the type of warranty, prices, mil or moa, IR, sorted by FFP vs. SFP, etc. Most of them are around $500, some more, some less.


Cheers,

Matthias


❌ 3 Attachments:
3 Scope Specs Tables
(1) 6-24x / 5-30x / 4-20x
(2) 4-16x / 3-18x / 4-20x
(3) SHORT —or— 3-12x / 3-9x

View attachment 272816

View attachment 272817

View attachment 272818
Click to expand...
Wow. You went all in on that. I am still looking for a scope on the springer since Midwayusa has a decent dove tail to picatinny rail adapter

I never considered the parralex settings on the short side of things. I just looked at the models offered by the major retailers. Many of the Vortex line for example are the same price and model I put on my long range .308 Winchester rifles resulting in costs the same as the air rifle itself.

When it comes to lower priced scopes beside the obvious fogging etc. The erectors are usually not accurate. On something like this the erectors have to be very accurate.

Thank you. It will take a bit to digest
 
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My favorite PCPs are bullpups, P35s. My 22 or 25 would work for a coon, I believe. I have the triggers adjusted to about 1 lb. The first stage cannot be eliminated but it can be made very light. The hammer spring can be adjusted but not as easily as a FX. The advantage of the 25 is a bigger hole for quicker death on a body shot. I don't think the caliber makes much difference on brain shots. Even with a fairly powerful PCP you are likely to need all the penetration you can get and that means a simple domed pellet, not an expanding pellet like a Hades or a slug. In my testing the penetration of an expanding projectile is about half that of a non expanding.

If you google something like "pcp compressor" you will find some. The inexpensive options are built in China, like the YH. Some will work on 12V so you can use your vehicle as a source. There are a series of youtubes by Target Forge talking about one of these that he likes. Seems interesting but it takes literally ten times as long to fill a gun as a YH. I added an expired SCBA tank and fill valve and fill that from my YH and then my guns from the tank. Much quieter until I need to refill the tank. My YH cooling water does not get changed, my system is sealed. I use a radiator to extend run time without the compressor overheating. Target Forge also did a series of videos on a similar setup. I think you would find them under "Yong Heng hot rod shop". There are lots of other compressors but they cost a lot more than the ones made in China.
 
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34.5 fpe is similar to my P35s. My 25 caliber likes H&N FTT (20 grain) and spits them out at about 875 fps. My 22 likes H&N Baracuda Match that are just over 21 grain. It is shooting them at about 835 fps. I turned the reg down on the 25 because I thought 900+ was a bit fast. I could turn the 22 up a bit but it shoots so nice where it is I probably won't. Trajectory at 835 is not much different from 850 or 875.

I need to do some penetration tests with my P35-22 and P35-177. I'm expecting the 22 to go a bit further in wet magazines than the 25 and the 177 to be more similar to my Prod. But I won't know until I try. For head shots, penetration in mdf may be more significant. I did those tests. My P35-177 shooting 10.65 grain pellets at about 895 fps will go through one piece of 1/4 MDF at 25 yards and embed in the second. That is about the same as my Prod shooting a 14.66 grain at 750 fps. My P35-22 and P35-25 both shoot through two pieces of 1/4 MDF at 25 yards. I would want that greater penetration for a larger animal like a coon. My 25 Avenger shoots 25.4 grains at about 930 fps and will go through 3 pieces of 1/4 MDF. It will got through 1/2 inch plywood at 100 yards. I think I could get my P35-25 to penetrate 3/4 inch by using 34 grain pellets and turning the reg up a bit but I don't really need that level of penetration for small game. Wet magazines seem to simulate penetration in muscle tissue pretty well and that is where I see penetration drop to about 1/2 with expanding projectiles. Doesn't seem to affect penetration in MDF (the mdf distorts all projectiles).
 
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Well folks,

I looked hard at springers for a while after this conversation.

After looking at those compared to the versatility of the Dreamline, it almost looked like a waste of money... I looked at my budget again. Since rimfire is expensive and I miss shooting (primers and powder are hard to come by as well), I thought it might be worth it. With people building houses downrange of where I used to shoot, a projectile with a low BC appeared to be appropriate. I'm used to .200 bc and up both in the G1 and G7 area. 0.6 miles should slow an errant pellet pretty good.

I looked at the the compact version of the dreamline very hard until I found out that the Wisconsin code for hunting had a twist. It included air propellant as part of the definition and it stated it had to have a barrel length of 16 inches and overall length of 26 inches. Wisconsin law does distinguish briefly that an air gun is not a firearm but... the definition states clearly for hunting that its a no no.

So I looked at the dreamline tactical and found that it has a bottle version. So a fixed stock with a 19 inch barrel with around 40+ inches of length is quite legal. If I find a loop hole where as a shorter barrel is allowed. Well then its just an order away. (and a bunch of tuning) I ordered a power plenum because the UK guys tested them and found it lowered standard deviation some on the low settings (I hate double digit standard deviation). Over all power does not appear to increase much so as stated previously Slugs probably are a no go. Which is ok for now. They make guns capable pushing slugs everyday, if I find that its needed.

The cost of the compressor is what stopped me prior and after deep diving and looking into what people were doing outside the Chinese jobber "YH" I settled on the Nomad 2. While I may still end up with a YH because the Nomads appear to be backordered and the gun should be here soon and my problem critters have not moved out of the milk house roof yet.

I selected a Athlon Talos for a beginner optic on this. Just to figure out measurements. I have not bought anything but high end vortex for my powder burners for quite some time. I could not find and 1-8 power optics with a 40-44 mm bell for the close range work so I need to investigate that. I need the objective lens rather large for low light and lower power which does not appear to be a common design.

I cannot use night vision due to wording of the law but i can use thermal which I cannot afford (Until after this supply chain for my powder burners calms down. Then my 6.5 grendel build can start and thermals will have multiple uses and maybe by then pulsar with have better resolution)..

Once I'm done, the athlon will go on my old springer to use for starlings in my front yard. I just sit in a lawn chair with a cigar or run out the door as soon as I see them. It should work for that.

I ordered 4 tor 5 tins of pellets. Mostly in the 15.89 grain range but one I thing is closer to 18 grains,I forgot.

Which brings me to my next question I could not find on here clearly.

All things considered, 2 rifles with a serial number one off from each other will like different things. Subtle internal ballistic variables make this true. After watching the 910 repair guy on YouTube and trying to understand tuning. He kept mentioning that certain projectiles group better at different velocities. Which in powder burners is somewhat true as well. Powder burners have "accuracy nodes" where the harmonics are timed with the bullet exiting the barrel to create perceived accuracy. I believe this to be the same here. Looking at the shroud rings on the barrel I could see those coming into play. Powder burners also have what is called "pressure nodes" where as the certain variables can cause the velocity variation to drop significantly. I believe this has a lot to do with the tune on an air gun. Lock time and the time the valve stays open is part of it as well. But if you have a handle on the pressure node and accuracy node, all you have to do is experiment with the powder and pellet to make a great load In powder burners.

My questions are fairly simple. Are their charts that give starting velocities for these pellets? Such as a recommendation?

After watching the tuning videos a ladder test would be quite a problem since I would be adding more variables with each tune. Example of what I'm looking for: a .22 cal. 15.89 JSB haedes likes 920-980 fps in most fx barrels, I would know that I need to tune towards 920 FPS to as a starting point?


Am I wrong here? I would hate to wast time and pellets when I can at least get into the parking lot of the ball park I need to be in. I am a powder burner guy and these airguns are definitely a new challenge.
 
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So with the dreamline tactical 500mm bottle version... I'm still waiting for the compressor and getting low on air. I have 50 bar left to reg pressure. I'm posting this for searches in the future.

Winds are 5-18 mph today so I decided to hold off on zeroing beyond what I did with a laser when I mounted the scope last night. (2.48 sight height was to much for the culminator) so I have no news as to accuracy but I did hook up the magneto speed v3 and got some preliminary data off of the moderator. The gun was tuned at Utah Airguns, it came with a power plenum, reg pressure is set to 100 bar and the hammer spring is at 7 with an unknown preload and power wheel is at medium. UA set it for 900 fps with the the JSB 18 gr at 4774 ft ASL and I am at 832 ft asl. So very little effect on the gas side of things when I saw the velocity, which is great. I'm still new to this and its something I paid attention to with powder burners some.

I wish I had a chance to see accuracy today because with this consistency, this setup is pretty arousing. I love the consistency.

Since this was preliminary, I Didn't let the gun set at temperature from the 73°F house to the 84° ambient pressure. I did not record humidity or barometric pressure either.

Here is what the V3 told me, it had to do string 3 twice since I switched from lead to aluminum and the V3 got confused at its sensitivity level. It takes a minimum of 20 shots to get accurate S.D. so I'm focused on ES here.

Enjoy.

Series1Shots:5
Min954Max965
Avg958S-D4
ES11
.22 JSB EXACT JUMBO 15.89 gr
SeriesShotSpeed
11957ft/s
12965ft/s
13958ft/s
14954ft/s
15958ft/s
----------------
Series2Shots:5
Min912Max922
Avg915S-D3.8
ES10
.22 JSB exact jumbo heavy 18.13 gr
SeriesShotSpeed
21922ft/s
22914ft/s
23915ft/s
24913ft/s
25912ft/s
----------------
Series3Shots:5
Min1005Max1010
Avg1007S-D1.7
ES5
.22 H&N Baracuda Green 12.96 gr.
SeriesShotSpeed
311005ft/s
321010ft/s
331007ft/s
341007ft/s
351006ft/s
----------------
String 1: 0.22 JSB Exact Jumbo 15.89gr
String 2: .022 JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13gr.
String 3: .022 H&N Baracuda Green 12.96
 
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