N/A New to forum + Question about getting into air pistol 10m

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Froke

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Aug 2, 2024
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Hi all,

New to the forum. I generally target shoot with .22LR for fun (pistol and rifle), but wanted to explore air pistol also just because it seemed a bit interesting after watching ISSF stuff over the years, and more recently with the hype around the Olympics. It's also a bit easier to wrap my head around the legalities/regulations due to some of the rules in my state (WA), too.

There was a post for a FWB P11 on sale in classifieds here that I was interested in (rcs9250's post), but I can't PM yet, so I was wondering if that's a sufficient enough PCP to start with, or even progress into competition with comparing to what is more commonly seen in comp (i.e. Steyr). I've looked into what targets to buy as well as pellets (R-10 I think?), and since I'm only doing pistol I was gonna stick to hand pumping. I also already go to a range that has air pistol/rifle set ups which is also nice I suppose. Oh and if anyone knows if 7g or 8.2g is a bit better for a FWB P11, that'd be nice to know just in case I'm able to get one.

Thanks for any info.
 
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The P11 will serve you well. The Air Arms Alfa Proj was a go-to starter 10m pistol for a while that is likely much less expensive. The CMP has them available if you qualify. Airguns of Arizona frequently has some nice 10M guns pop up in their used section.

Either of those guns will shoot much better than you will, especially while you're learning the craft. @ 10m, both of those guns are capable of .178" groups with the right ammo. You'll have quite a high ceiling with either one. After you start to progress, the gains to be made will be in fitting the grip to your hand (i.e. custom work), fine tuning trigger pull, custom lenses, etc. before replacing the gun itself.

Hand pumping those little air reservoir on the pistols is no problem, but something to think about - if you are at a match, pumping (even a little bit) will elevate your heart rate on top of whatever nerves you're already feeling. Make sure you have sufficient time to recover if that's the route you are choosing.

Every competitor will use whatever pellets shoot best in their gun. you'll likely have to try a few different varieties.

Good luck man!

Nico
 
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Nico5999 said:
The P11 will serve you well. The Air Arms Alfa Proj was a go-to starter 10m pistol for a while that is likely much less expensive. The CMP has them available if you qualify. Airguns of Arizona frequently has some nice 10M guns pop up in their used section.

Either of those guns will shoot much better than you will, especially while you're learning the craft. @ 10m, both of those guns are capable of .178" groups with the right ammo. You'll have quite a high ceiling with either one. After you start to progress, the gains to be made will be in fitting the grip to your hand (i.e. custom work), fine tuning trigger pull, custom lenses, etc. before replacing the gun itself.

Hand pumping those little air reservoir on the pistols is no problem, but something to think about - if you are at a match, pumping (even a little bit) will elevate your heart rate on top of whatever nerves you're already feeling. Make sure you have sufficient time to recover if that's the route you are choosing.

Every competitor will use whatever pellets shoot best in their gun. you'll likely have to try a few different varieties.

Good luck man!

Nico
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Good to know. Did not know the CMP did air pistol/rifle also. Thank you for the info.
 
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Nico5999 said:
The P11 will serve you well. The Air Arms Alfa Proj was a go-to starter 10m pistol for a while that is likely much less expensive. The CMP has them available if you qualify. Airguns of Arizona frequently has some nice 10M guns pop up in their used section.

Either of those guns will shoot much better than you will, especially while you're learning the craft. @ 10m, both of those guns are capable of .178" groups with the right ammo. You'll have quite a high ceiling with either one. After you start to progress, the gains to be made will be in fitting the grip to your hand (i.e. custom work), fine tuning trigger pull, custom lenses, etc. before replacing the gun itself.

Hand pumping those little air reservoir on the pistols is no problem, but something to think about - if you are at a match, pumping (even a little bit) will elevate your heart rate on top of whatever nerves you're already feeling. Make sure you have sufficient time to recover if that's the route you are choosing.

Every competitor will use whatever pellets shoot best in their gun. you'll likely have to try a few different varieties.

Good luck man!

Nico
Click to expand...
I have an interest in precision shooting at close range. I have never shot 10M and don't know anything about this discipline. I'm just trying to learn. If the ammo is .177" diameter, is the equipment capable of holding .001" tolerance or am I misunderstanding the grouping data? Can you detail how the pistol is used and set up? (is this supported use, type of sights, sight offset from bore centerline) What are typical groupings from competitions? Anything that you can explain will be of benefit to me. Nice tip on hand pumping. I have seen my pulse on the target at 100 yards and I was not at an elevated heart rate. Thank you.
 
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Great suggestion on boscoebrea's part. Forums are great at answering questions, but less efficient covering such a wide field!

I will say that formal 10M pistol competition are shot "offhand:" standing, with a one-hand hold. Open "post and notch" sights are required by the rules, with no scopes or other optical magnification allowed.
 
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boscoebrea said:
I think it is more informative to google your subject,Ten Meter pistol Shooting,read, study then ask specific questions here .I say this because there is much to know and learn .(y)
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A lot of it is natural ability too such as steadiness, eye site and being able to control one's emotions......My wife is a natural at shooting pistols. I taught her and she blew my mind with her first 20 shots.
Endless training helps tenfold but natural ability can't be taught!
 
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Here's a good kickoff for ya, from our man Tom Gaylord over at Pyramyd:

www.pyramydair.com

Introduction to 10-meter pistol – Part 1An instant tutorial! | Blog | Pyramyd AIR

by B.B. Pelletier First things first. Reader K. Rihanek mentioned that the rear sight notch on his Gamo Compact was adjustable, so I read the manual and learned that it is. I have owned a Compact and tested several and never before noticed this feature. You can open that notch to almost double...
www.pyramydair.com
 
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I have to start off by apologizing for not explaining my post well enough. I do have an interest in precision shooting. My goals are not to shoot competitively. I am interested in precision capabilities of the sights that are used. There was specific precision data that I was trying to verify from an earlier post and if I was interpreting correctly. I did not know the guidelines of 10 M shooting. Thank you for the help and suggestions. I have 6 Diana Chaser pistols from Pyramid Air that I teach kids with. My idea of close range is 0 to 12 yards and 1/4" beads as targets. The kids love to be challenged, and they are very good. They shoot pencil erasers hung with fish line at 12 yards. They do use a shooting bag. I finished reading the Part 1 from BB and will look up the other tutorials. Thanks again!
 
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I have a few match sights ( 🙄 ), and will certainly help if I can. But I don't quite understand your question about "holding .001" tolerance?" Are you referring to backlash in the adjusters or something else?

Gun: anything that sez "Feinwerkbau" on it should be more than adequate...! You did great on that.

Ammo: with springer pistols the general rule is "lighter = better." They have relatively slow and wonky movement under recoil, so you want the pellet to clear the muzzle ASAP. I have less experience with pneumatics but I suspect the effect is less pronounced.

IMG_2196.jpeg
 
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Thanks for the follow up help. I was referencing Nico5999's post that stated .178" grouping for 10M shooting. I have precision die making background and suspect that tolerance may not be accurate. The pellet would be .177" and that leaves .001". The additional data I received about sights and stance let me know that tolerance can not be verified. The sights pictured are assorted styles. I thought I read that the only sights that can be used were open sights. Are red sights acceptable? I have designed a new style that I have the kids using. I was researching if the 10M discipline would use other styles. Thanks again.
 
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Group size is measured center-to-center of the impact points, not edge-to-edge of the hole in the paper (i.e., group size = greatest edge-to-edge distance, minus pellet diameter). A .178" group is a mighty fine one for sure, but any good match air pistol, fired from a rest, should do literal one-hole groups at 10 meters with quality pellets. Doing that from an offhand stance is another matter entirely of course! 😲

Flat-head "wadcutter" pellets are typically used in competition, as they punch the cleanest (i.e., easiest to score) holes in the target paper.

My photo above is of aperture sights used on match rifles - sorry for the confusion! ISSF or NRA-sanctioned pistol matches permit only traditional open "post and notch" sights. The guns in these pics are old (FWB 65 springers), but sights haven't changed much. Besides fine height and windage adjustments, the shooter can tweak the front post and rear notch widths.

IMG_4330.jpeg


IMG_4326.jpeg


IMG_4325.jpeg
 
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Froke said:
Hi all,

New to the forum. I generally target shoot with .22LR for fun (pistol and rifle), but wanted to explore air pistol also just because it seemed a bit interesting after watching ISSF stuff over the years, and more recently with the hype around the Olympics. It's also a bit easier to wrap my head around the legalities/regulations due to some of the rules in my state (WA), too.

There was a post for a FWB P11 on sale in classifieds here that I was interested in (rcs9250's post), but I can't PM yet, so I was wondering if that's a sufficient enough PCP to start with, or even progress into competition with comparing to what is more commonly seen in comp (i.e. Steyr). I've looked into what targets to buy as well as pellets (R-10 I think?), and since I'm only doing pistol I was gonna stick to hand pumping. I also already go to a range that has air pistol/rifle set ups which is also nice I suppose. Oh and if anyone knows if 7g or 8.2g is a bit better for a FWB P11, that'd be nice to know just in case I'm able to get one.

Thanks for any info.
Click to expand...
something you can do now . free hand target shooting , but in your house no gun just your finger . you have watched the Olympics so practice that stance. place your feet like you are shooting @ the Olympics then use your finger extended like your pistol pointing at a spot on the wall ,find this comfortable position . Now close your eyes. turn your head to look straight ahead of your body not at the target . relax your arm to your side keep your eye's closed .
breath a few times , arm is straight lift your gun (finger) up slightly above your head and slowly lower to point your finger at the target ALL WITH YOUR EYES CLOSED! turn your head to look down your arm and open your eyes . are you pointing to the spot on the wall ? this is a wonderful way to have your body and arm memorize your stance /position so that you are relaxed but on target . Your finger now points to the spot or very very close every time .

Stan in KY. ,
 
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"Official" air pistol and rifle targets. Fired at a distance of 10 meters (about 32'-10"); center of bull 140 cm (4'-7") above the floor.

The pistol 10-ring is 11.5 mm in diameter, succeeding rings are 8.0 mm wide. Printed in black through the 7 ring for aiming reference. The smaller ring inside the 10 is the "x-ring," used as a tie-breaker in some competitions.

The rifle 10-ring is 0.5 mm in diameter, succeeding rings are 2.5 mm wide. Black though the 4 ring.

In normal scoring, the highest ring touched is what counts (pellet standing on the pistol target is a 9). In the finals round of top-level competitions, shots are electronically scored to tenths of a point; a dead-center shot is 10.9.

IMG_5424.jpeg
 
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Thank you for showing the details of the sights. Quality never goes out of style. The scoring system would give the point score for the card. Do they also give the grouping spec? I'm looking for how much variance in grouping size. I can then use that data to determine if my sight could be used for that level of precision. It has to be compared to the best if you want to make improvements. Does 10M shooting use trajectory calculators. Because of fixed 10-meter distance, I would not think it would be used. Does pellet velocity vary much for competition pistols?

After reading a number of posts for 10M shooting, I see the value of scoring, even for non-competition use. If documented, it establishes a timeline and baseline for improvements. Stan's post about developing good muscle memory will transfer to all the shooting skills. Thanks for the target data. Have a good day!
 
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Match pistols run 450 to 500 FPS at the muzzle, match rifles about 100 FPS hotter. Flathead pellets are quite accurate and target paper cleanly punched at those speeds.

Apologies in advance as this will sound a little rude! But your other questions make no sense to me. "Grouping specs," "card scores," "sight analysis," etc., are not topics of discussion I've encountered in 40 years of playing with quality airguns.
 
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I may not be phrasing correctly how I thought scoring was documented for matches. Are the shooters aware of how they are performing while they shoot or is it calculated and displayed at the end of the event? The grouping example I can give is the 9 ring has an outside diameter of 27.5mm. The shots could be anywhere in that ring and score at least 9 for all shots. They may be in any spot of the 9 ring and not display a good group pattern. Group size and precision are my goals, but not necessarily scoring. Trajectory questions may not be relevant to the 10M discipline. I use it to calculate arc height variance for longer close-range (0-25yards) shooting. It also gives me additional input on sight height effects. As an example, Daisy BB Gun Championships are shot at 5M. A 10M pistol would need to be adjusted to shoot at that shorter range. I actually target with sights closer than that with very good results. My designs are unique, but as long as they perform well, that is all that matters.

I did know that target paper was designed to punch smoothly with wad cutters versus other paper. 400 FPS minimum is something I didn't know. I always like to learn new stuff. Thanks again for your time and help. I hope we can talk about theory more in the future.
 
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