Umarex Notos Porting

1) Clarify please? Are you confusing grams for grains?

If I put in my data extrapolated from the sheet into any FPE calculator, it shows as correct. For example 4.8 gram hammer traveling 25 fps = .1 fpe, both on any external FPE calculator and through my spreadsheet. 4.8 grams = 74 grains.

2) The sheet is based on inelastic collision.

3) Hammer gap is the free flight, or distance the hammer travels without spring tension.


-Matt
1. The fpe calculation is ok, but the data fed to it seems incorrect. Looks like the hammer velocity is off. For example, here's my calc of the stock notos.

Spring rate: 1.96 N/mm
Spring length 63mm
Preload 13mm
Total cocked load 32mm
Hammer travel 19mm
Hammer weight 293gr
hammer fpe .618

Your spreadsheet:
.854 fpe

2. Ok
3. Got it.
 
1. The fpe calculation is ok, but the data fed to it seems incorrect. Looks like the hammer velocity is off. For example, here's my calc of the stock notos.

Spring rate: 1.96 N/mm
Spring length 63mm
Preload 13mm
Total cocked load 32mm
Hammer travel 19mm
Hammer weight 293gr
hammer fpe .618

Your spreadsheet:
.854 fpe

2. Ok
3. Got it.

How do you arrive at .618 fpe? Feel free to share, if a correction need be made I certainly wouldn't mind appending my sheet. Thanks

Also note, my spreadsheets hammer velocity / lock time has been cross referenced with real world testing and matched up, so curious how your calculating a much slower hammer velocity.


-Matt
 
Some light reading in terms of the collision between hammer and valve...

"To precisely determine whether the hammer will open the valve when it hits the valve
stem you have to solve a complex open two-body impact problem. A collision problem is
“open” when external forces interfere with the momentum exchange between the colliding
bodies. You can solve the impact problem in a PCP airgun at several levels of complexity,
depending on the time scales involved. If the time scale of the collision is comparable to
the valve dwell time scale, you must solve the collision problem in full, accounting for
what happens during the collision. Hertz [13] laid out the elasticity framework for dealing
with colliding bodies when you need full resolution of the collision process. Analytical
solutions exist for relatively simple bodies, such as spheres, bars, and planes [14]. For
more complex colliding bodies, such as PCP hammers and valves, detailed resolution of
the collision process requires a numerical technique such as finite elements. Since the
focus here is on simplicity and computational economy, it is best to find a simpler alterna-
tive.
If the collision time scale is much shorter than the time the valve remains open, you can
simplify the problem by assuming the collision occurs instantaneously. In the case of a
PCP hammer-valve impact, the valve must overcome some deflection of its seating area,
and this means that the impact of the hammer with the valve stem will happen as an open
system, subject to external momentum transfer. Elementary collision theory, as is usually
presented in elementary Physics texts, assumes the colliding bodies form a closed system,
subject to no external forces.
I will assume the collision time is short enough that it can be neglected compared with the
dwell time of the valve. Without entering into the mathematical details, this assumption is
justified by comparing computed valve dwell times with characteristic collision times of
simple bodies (such as spheres of appropriate size and mass) using Hertz’ theory. If you
replace the hammer and valve with spheres of diameter and mass comparable to the diam-
eter and mass of the hammer and valve stem, Hertz theory gives you collision times of the
order of 50 microseconds, or 0.05 millisecond. Typical dwell times for the configurations
studied here are about one millisecond, or twenty times longer. To determine how good
this assumption really is would require empirical verification with sophisticated measure-
ment equipment. One of the consequences of the instantaneous collision assumption is the
possibility of multiple collisions between the hammer and the valve stem while the valve
is open.
The instantaneous collision assumption when there is an external source of impulse
amounts to a separation of the momentum exchange between hammer and valve during
collision, and the momentum exchange between the valve and the closing forces acting on
the valve (the valve spring and the reservoir pressure). In our case, the external impulse
comes from the resistance of the valve to be lifted against the reservoir pressure as the
valve separates from its deflected seat. In this approximation, the bouncing velocities of
the hammer and valve result from elementary collision theory, and whether the valve can
overcome the forces that keep is the outcome of a-posteriority verification.
If is the hammer velocity when it first makes contact with the valve stem, is the
hammer mass, and is the mass of the valve, the hammer and valve velocities after
impact are given by...

1726593501031.png


where is the restitution coefficient of the hammer and valve metal pair (typical values of
for steel are between 0.7 and 0.85.) The restitution coefficient represents the fraction of
momentum that is restored to the colliding bodies as they bounce away from each other.
In this simplified approach, in order for the valve to open, the energy of the valve after
impact with the hammer must be greater than the energy used in overcoming the forces
that keep the valve closed. Mathematically, this means the valve velocity calculated with
EQ 2 must be corrected by the energy consumed in restoring the valve seat to its unloaded
shape

1726593522581.png


where is the valve seating area, is a characteristic thickness of the valve seating area,
is the initial reservoir pressure, and is Young’s elasticity modulus of the valve seat-
ing material. The operator returns the positive value of its argument if the argument
is greater than zero, or zero otherwise. The thickness and surface are functions of the
valve and seat geometry, and it is best to treat these quantities as calibration parameters.
EQ 3 ignores the effect of the initial transfer plenum pressure on the valve poppet, which
is insignificant when compared with the initial reservoir pressure.
Once you know the minimum value of required to open the valve, you can use EQ 1 to
calculate the minimum hammer velocity upon valve contact, and with this it is trivial to
compute the minimum hammer spring strength required to open the valve. "

The rest can be read here...
 
How do you arrive at .618 fpe? Feel free to share, if a correction need be made I certainly wouldn't mind appending my sheet. Thanks

Also note, my spreadsheets hammer velocity / lock time has been cross referenced with real world testing and matched up, so curious how your calculating a much slower hammer velocity.


-Matt
To keep it short:

The energy needed to compress the entire spring into the cocked position, minus the energy (if there is any, which there is in a stock notos) needed to preload the spring, is the potential KE of the hammer at the moment it strikes the valve. I didn't calculate any losses.

I didn't just sleep through physics class... I didn't even show up. So please let me know if I'm the one making a mistake.
 
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To keep it short:

The energy needed to compress the entire spring into the cocked position, minus the energy (if there is any, which there is in a stock notos) needed to preload the spring, is the potential KE of the hammer at the moment it strikes the valve. I didn't calculate any losses.

I didn't just sleep through physics class... I didn't even show up. So please let me know if I'm the one making a mistake.

Are you using Hooke's Law?



I also add in a constant to calculate the loss from gravity in the attached spreadsheet. If I made a mistake, feel free to correct it! I could very well have converted something incorrectly in the spread sheet, as I go from imperial to metric which can be a pain.

-Matt
 
Are you using Hooke's Law?



I also add in a constant to calculate the loss from gravity in the attached spreadsheet. If I made a mistake, feel free to correct it! I could very well have converted something incorrectly in the spread sheet, as I go from imperial to metric which can be a pain.

-Matt
Units get me every time. Like the unit "slugs"... that one had me confused AF for hours recently.
 
That's the same number I got. Take that, and subtract the fpe needed to preload the spring 13mm and it makes 0.618fpe

Why are you subtracting the fpe needed to preload the spring? That doesn't change the potential energy stored within the spring once released in a compressed state? Guess I don't follow that step in your calculation.

-Matt
 
Why are you subtracting the fpe needed to preload the spring? That doesn't change the potential energy stored within the spring once released in a compressed state? Guess I don't follow that step in your calculation.

-Matt
Let me try to explain. When you install the spring you have to compress it by about 13mm (depending on where you set the adjuster). I call this preload.

I'm working with the approximation that this energy provided during installation is not released until you remove the spring again.

This energy may come into play after the hammer has struck the valve as the hammer is able to travel a bit further. I haven't attempted to calculate this.
 
Let me try to explain. When you install the spring you have to compress it by about 13mm (depending on where you set the adjuster). I call this preload.

I'm working with the approximation that this energy provided during installation is not released until you remove the spring again.

This energy may come into play after the hammer has struck the valve as the hammer is able to travel a bit further. I haven't attempted to calculate this.

I am using quite the complex method that calculates the newtons using hookes law and works down from that, and my calculation with newtons is 100% spot on so idk if I am converting something wrong after that, or...if this complex equation is spot on as is...I am 100% open to either possibility, built the sheet many ages ago, and at that time I did all the research I could to get the most accurate results for a compressed springs energy transfer to an object.

I would have to disagree that the preload energy is not released, otherwise, why does more OR less preload change the behavior? If what you state is true, hammer preload just wouldn't matter in a pcp?

-Matt
 
I am using quite the complex method that calculates the newtons using hookes law and works down from that, and my calculation with newtons is 100% spot on so idk if I am converting something wrong after that, or...if this complex equation is spot on as is...I am 100% open to either possibility, built the sheet many ages ago, and at that time I did all the research I could to get the most accurate results for a compressed springs energy transfer to an object.

I would have to disagree that the preload energy is not released, otherwise, why does more OR less preload change the behavior? If what you state is true, hammer preload just wouldn't matter in a pcp?

-Matt
Preload changes the starting and ending force applied by the spring. More preload increases the area under the curve. It does not give you back the energy required to turn the knob.

Think of the red lines as low preload and the blue as high preload.

Screenshot_20240917_140601_Chrome.jpg
 
Preload changes the starting and ending force applied by the spring. More preload increases the area under the curve. It does not give you back the energy required to turn the knob.

Think of the red lines as low preload and the blue as high preload.

View attachment 496832


If you subtract the pre-loads energy, then preload in theory have no real effect and contribute no additional energy to the hammer thus, changing preload wouldn't effect lift or dwell, no? Essentially you're saying I could omit pre-load from the calculation if its simply subtracted?

I just amended my fat finger on the conversion for fps to mps, so if I should amend the above, I'll certainly do so! Thanks for your help so far!

-Matt
 
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If you subtract the pre-loads energy, then preload in theory have no real effect and contribute no additional energy to the hammer thus, changing preload wouldn't effect lift or dwell, no? Essentially you're saying I could omit pre-load from the calculation if its simply subtracted?

I just amended my fat finger on the conversion for fps to mps, so if I should amend the above, I'll certainly do so! Thanks for your help so far!

Other than the FPE numbers not lining up I'm not confident enough to make any corrections... but definitely don't mind bouncing ideas around. I'm working through a spreadsheet like this and will share it once I've cleaned it up a bit so you can see the path I'm taking.
 
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Other than the FPE numbers not lining up I'm not confident enough to make any corrections... but definitely don't mind bouncing ideas around. I'm working through a spreadsheet like this and will share it once I've cleaned it up a bit so you can see the path I'm taking.

Sweet, I sort of understand what you mean with the pre-load but, not entirely. I amended the sheet to correct the fpe and hammer velocity as I was using .32084 opposed to .3084 to convert from meters to feet (fat finger error).

-Matt
 
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Keep in mind, the distance the object being propelled by the spring greatly effects the FPE/KE, so you cannot simply base hammer energy on the potential energy stored in the spring.

If you were to substitute 15mm of hammer travel for 15mm of hammer preload, you get a lot less hammer energy due to its reduced travel, not just due to the changes in the springs potential energy...as it stands my spreadsheet will spit out .86~ FPE for your current setup, but changing the preload to 19mm and the travel to 13mm results in a massive loss of energy being produced, down to .574 FPE...and I am not subtracting the energy needed to compress the pre-loaded amount currently (not saying I am right, just in current state for above calculations @ .86 fpe vs .574 fpe simply by changing the distance of travel)

Hope this makes sense? You could even experiment yourself, try reducing the hammer travel greatly, and see how much more preload on the current spring, or increase in spring rating you need to restore to the previous state of tune.

Another side note, with such a light hammer (18gr) and low momentum, I find it hard to believe the conventionally valved notos is cracking open with as little at .6 fpe, but I am 100% open minded and prepared to be wrong and proven otherwise, always willing to learn.

-Matt
 
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