I personally think Hunter is harder due to 12x max power for scope.
PLUS I SHOOT HUNTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
PLUS I SHOOT HUNTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
OPEN CLASS or HUNTER which is more difficult and WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter A2ZBen
- Start date
I personally think it's easier to shoot higher scores in Open because the positions are more stable and the ranging ability of higher power scopes is much better than a 12x scope. However since shooters have to follow the rules of the division they are shooting in, it is truly only as difficult as your competition makes it for you. In other words, I'm suggesting that comparing how difficult one division of the other is not a concern because the divisions don't compete against one another.
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In my experience I felt the 12X limitation makes hunter class more difficult but this is just my opinion.
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In FT, there is no overall match winner, there might be a high score recognition, but 1st place is give out separately in Hunter, Open, and WFTF.
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A2ZBen, in most AAFTA Grand Prix matches, the top over all shooter is recognised. Also at the Nationals too. Greg Sauve for instance won his choice at the Pyramid Cup last year. He won his WFTF division, and was the top scorer.
As Scott stated, at our club we only formally recognize the top shooter in each class. It really depends on what your club decides.
As far as difficulty, I started at hunter but found I was less stable with the bipod than on the bum bag and my knee. 12 power in hunter is a killer, but the lack of stability was more my issue.
So I think all classes have their detractors. If I shot in hunter with a high magnafication, it would not matter! My being unstable would still be my downfall. So it will depend on the shooters ability...IMHO
As Scott stated, at our club we only formally recognize the top shooter in each class. It really depends on what your club decides.
As far as difficulty, I started at hunter but found I was less stable with the bipod than on the bum bag and my knee. 12 power in hunter is a killer, but the lack of stability was more my issue.
So I think all classes have their detractors. If I shot in hunter with a high magnafication, it would not matter! My being unstable would still be my downfall. So it will depend on the shooters ability...IMHO
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It depends.
I've probably shot both Divisions as much or more than anybody.
If I'm having a bad day holding steady (shaky even without coffee), the sticks are a welcome crutch to keep me in the game. Some days I'm rock steady and the sticks and bucket in Hunter become a hindrance.
If the line of sight to target is obscured at all, the higher seat of Hunter Division becomes an advantage. If there is lots of wind and the the course is well manicured, I would give the advantage to sitting low (even without a bipod).
For offhand, the Open Division can use a shooting jacket to advantage. For ranging, definite advantage in Open.
Based on the scores, the overall advantage goes to Open Division. But there are some courses where I would rather have access to shooting sticks.
How about this - Hunter can be "easier" to participate in. But Open will make it "easier" to get the top score.
I've probably shot both Divisions as much or more than anybody.
If I'm having a bad day holding steady (shaky even without coffee), the sticks are a welcome crutch to keep me in the game. Some days I'm rock steady and the sticks and bucket in Hunter become a hindrance.
If the line of sight to target is obscured at all, the higher seat of Hunter Division becomes an advantage. If there is lots of wind and the the course is well manicured, I would give the advantage to sitting low (even without a bipod).
For offhand, the Open Division can use a shooting jacket to advantage. For ranging, definite advantage in Open.
Based on the scores, the overall advantage goes to Open Division. But there are some courses where I would rather have access to shooting sticks.
How about this - Hunter can be "easier" to participate in. But Open will make it "easier" to get the top score.
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Depends on the shooter!
Years ago I've shot matches where a PCP hunter class shooter shot "match high" with 12x optics, but there was a twist to his shooting form......instead of "bucket and sticks" the shooter shot prone resting his 18fpe PCP on a short bipod. Shooting prone that way in the hunter class created all sorts of "commotion" on the forums a while back which ended up with a few rules changes concerning the use of "attached bipods" etc.
Anywhoo.....while the PCP hunter class "belly flopper" mentioned above "shot "match high" at a club I attended years ago, I haven't seen a "bucket and sticks" shooters take "match high", however there are probably some who I'm not aware being a rather local shooter.
More direct to the question..........
For ME "bucket and sticks" is easier than shooting "pretzel style". At the beginning of my field target shooting I tried "pretzel style" but gave up because it didn't "fit me well" but the excuse I use is the fact that "pretzel style" has nothing to do with off season practice for squirrel huntin'!
Years ago I've shot matches where a PCP hunter class shooter shot "match high" with 12x optics, but there was a twist to his shooting form......instead of "bucket and sticks" the shooter shot prone resting his 18fpe PCP on a short bipod. Shooting prone that way in the hunter class created all sorts of "commotion" on the forums a while back which ended up with a few rules changes concerning the use of "attached bipods" etc.
Anywhoo.....while the PCP hunter class "belly flopper" mentioned above "shot "match high" at a club I attended years ago, I haven't seen a "bucket and sticks" shooters take "match high", however there are probably some who I'm not aware being a rather local shooter.
More direct to the question..........
For ME "bucket and sticks" is easier than shooting "pretzel style". At the beginning of my field target shooting I tried "pretzel style" but gave up because it didn't "fit me well" but the excuse I use is the fact that "pretzel style" has nothing to do with off season practice for squirrel huntin'!
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Ed,
you said:
"I haven’t seen a “bucket and sticks” shooters take “match high”, however there are probably some who I’m not aware being a rather local shooter."
The last part is true. It happens. How about last Saturday:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/casaclub/messages/?msg=2286.1
you said:
"I haven’t seen a “bucket and sticks” shooters take “match high”, however there are probably some who I’m not aware being a rather local shooter."
The last part is true. It happens. How about last Saturday:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/casaclub/messages/?msg=2286.1
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Hunter class does not necessarily mean you have to sit on a bucket. You can use bum bag and a bipod. The 12X is a handicap since ranging is such a big part of the game.
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Yep....you can also shoot prone with a bipod as long as the bipod isn't solidly attached to the gun.
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G
Guest
Guest
This is my hunter class position as of a few weeks ago. My elbows are rested on the bony part of the inside of my knees. My off hand is tucked under the butt stock stock keeping it from canting and supporting some of the weigh and forming a sort of triangle with my arms and gun. Under me is a fold out turkey seat cut down to six inches per the old WFTF rules. Anyways my legs are spread apart with my heels dug into the snow/mud to anchor me solidly in place. Also my trigger sticks/bipod are set on the tube up against the stock and slanted forward to apply steady pressure and help to anchor the rifle as well.
I developed this particular position after watching other hunter class shooters do similar, but not from a low and sideways position as you see from WFTF shooters.
My recent Hunter class picture:
Me shooting WFTF with the same turkey seat:
And my second season shooting Hunter class:
I developed this particular position after watching other hunter class shooters do similar, but not from a low and sideways position as you see from WFTF shooters.
My recent Hunter class picture:
Me shooting WFTF with the same turkey seat:
And my second season shooting Hunter class:
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@John_in_Ma - interesting position. I can't see your legs in the first pic, are they positioned similarly to your legs in the second pic (WFTF style)? But forward facing?
@nced - bellyflopping is allowed? I read over the AAFTA rules, but it didn't say anything about prone position, just that the bipod must be unattached.
Thanks!
RYan
@nced - bellyflopping is allowed? I read over the AAFTA rules, but it didn't say anything about prone position, just that the bipod must be unattached.
Thanks!
RYan
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G
Guest
Guest
Yes, my legs are positioned similarly to the second picture. The difference being they are spread perpendicular to my body rather than in front.
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I've shot in both classes-apples and oranges.
I can personally be more stable with shooting sticks/bipod but i have to be sitting on the ground to do so. Those sticks reduce alot of side to side sway that is really hard to get rid of when in a shooting harness/bumbag open style. I think it probably has something to do with how much wider your "base" is with the sticks as their feet are wider than anything any normal human is going to accomplish with their legs in a typical bumbag seated position in open. The sticks/bipod also make it easier to isolate the gun from your heart rate and breathing.
But, that increased stability of getting to use a bipod is made up for by only getting to use 16x scopes.
The other major difference that everyone knows about but nobody discusses is that open class is a freaking arms race and hunter class shooters seem to usually use guns that have not been heavily modified nor were originally manufactured with the express intent of field target. The dang knee risers on open class guns can cost more than the entire setup (gun/scope/bucket/sticks/etc) that I have seen some hunter class shooters use.
One other difference is the level of shooters in each class. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptional shooters who prefer to shoot in hunter class, but, in my opinion (based on matches that I have gone to) the bulk of open class shooters are more talented shooters. As I type that I realize it sounds inflammatory. That's not my intention. I guess what I'm trying to say is that at our club, in a 6-10 person class of open shooters, almost all 6-10 participants will have hit at least 30/40 with a good number hitting 35/40 and the 1st couple places having hit 39/40 or 38/40. Looking at the same numbers in hunter class, the top 1 or 2 places in hunter are usually in the 30/40 range while the rest of the shooters are in the 20/40 or less range. I think that is an indicator of general talent rather than a harder or easier class.
"Harder" is also subjective. Hunter is harder to shoot good scores in, mostly due to the scope limitation, but it is easier to place at the top because of who you are shooting against. Open is easier to get good scores in, mostly because of the arms-race nature of the class (unlimited scope power, highly specialized guns manufactured and dedicated with the express intent of using them in FT), but harder to place in the top slots because of who you are shooting against.
So, back to your question of which is harder, open or hunter? My answer: springer.
I can personally be more stable with shooting sticks/bipod but i have to be sitting on the ground to do so. Those sticks reduce alot of side to side sway that is really hard to get rid of when in a shooting harness/bumbag open style. I think it probably has something to do with how much wider your "base" is with the sticks as their feet are wider than anything any normal human is going to accomplish with their legs in a typical bumbag seated position in open. The sticks/bipod also make it easier to isolate the gun from your heart rate and breathing.
But, that increased stability of getting to use a bipod is made up for by only getting to use 16x scopes.
The other major difference that everyone knows about but nobody discusses is that open class is a freaking arms race and hunter class shooters seem to usually use guns that have not been heavily modified nor were originally manufactured with the express intent of field target. The dang knee risers on open class guns can cost more than the entire setup (gun/scope/bucket/sticks/etc) that I have seen some hunter class shooters use.
One other difference is the level of shooters in each class. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptional shooters who prefer to shoot in hunter class, but, in my opinion (based on matches that I have gone to) the bulk of open class shooters are more talented shooters. As I type that I realize it sounds inflammatory. That's not my intention. I guess what I'm trying to say is that at our club, in a 6-10 person class of open shooters, almost all 6-10 participants will have hit at least 30/40 with a good number hitting 35/40 and the 1st couple places having hit 39/40 or 38/40. Looking at the same numbers in hunter class, the top 1 or 2 places in hunter are usually in the 30/40 range while the rest of the shooters are in the 20/40 or less range. I think that is an indicator of general talent rather than a harder or easier class.
"Harder" is also subjective. Hunter is harder to shoot good scores in, mostly due to the scope limitation, but it is easier to place at the top because of who you are shooting against. Open is easier to get good scores in, mostly because of the arms-race nature of the class (unlimited scope power, highly specialized guns manufactured and dedicated with the express intent of using them in FT), but harder to place in the top slots because of who you are shooting against.
So, back to your question of which is harder, open or hunter? My answer: springer.
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I think Franklink pretty much nailed it. You are comparing apples and oranges. I went back and looked at some of our past match scores and I don't think any definite conclusions could be made about which is more difficult or less difficult. They are just different. but pretty evenly matched based on the scores. Yes sometimes the unlimited guys outscore the hunter division guys, BUT sometimes it's the other way around. Sometimes the WFTF division shooters beat them both using only 12 fpe guns! Based on the scores I have seen, at our matches, the rules seem to be keeping the playing field fairly level. Now hunter division shooters can use 16X scopes which could make them even more than Level!
Another factor may, I say MAY, be how the particular course is designed as well as the actual terrain available, etc. Our course is different every match with varying types of shots however we do use a rather specific standard for all of our course layouts and we stick to that standard.
Results may vary at other clubs.
Shoot the division you like!
Rick Bassett
Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.
Another factor may, I say MAY, be how the particular course is designed as well as the actual terrain available, etc. Our course is different every match with varying types of shots however we do use a rather specific standard for all of our course layouts and we stick to that standard.
Results may vary at other clubs.
Shoot the division you like!
Rick Bassett
Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.
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gonzav71
Member
I have experimented with Hunter PCP with 16x scope. I must say sitting on a bum bag and using shooting sticks is a very stable shooting position compared to WFTF PCP or Springer. I can shoot very accurately without any wobble using a bum bag and shooting sticks. However at 16x, range finding might be a slight disadvantage but this is where bracketing past 40 yards comes into play. I bet a Hunter class shooter can be very competitive against Open and WFTF shooters with high mag scopes with enough bracketing practice and experience. This past weekend at BCSA FT match the match high was a Hunter PCP shooter beating the Open shooter by one point. The increase in mag to 16x from 12x will help even the playing field I think.
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