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Open Pistol Class?

So here is my latest idea to ruin field target.

Limited Class for PFT. There are hardly any people shooting this class. 7 people have shot Limited in GP matches this year. 16 did last year, but half of those were at the Nationals in PR and the GP from PR from February doesn't have any data in the AAFTA website, so I'm not sure if that was a one and done thing for those extra shooters at 2022 Nats. At any given GP, it's a crap shoot if there will be 3 shooters in Limited.

In case you don't want to read the rules, here is what Limited class is. Take all of the rules for Hunter Pistol and remove the bucket and sticks. And you can click your scope, but it still has to be 12x. So limited is an accurate description.

What I propose is an Open Pistol class. Here are the rules. Take Limited pistol class rules and remove the 12x scope requirement.

Now, I know what you are thinking. "If we add another class to an already low participation event, how is this going to help anything". Well, here's what I think will happen. The people that shoot Limited would switch to Open. Some of the people that shoot Hunter would switch to Open (not a lot, maybe 2 or 3). And after a year of having 3 classes with no one shooting Limited, Limited would go away and we would be back to 2 PFT classes, Hunter and Open.

Here's where you come in. The 7-10 people that currently shoot Limited PFT should chime in and say if they would be open to trying Open (pun intended). And any Hunter PFT shooters that would be interested in trading in their sticks and high seats for full use of their scope should chime in as well.

I realize that Motorhead made a similar proposal a month ago, but his idea was little more radical. 20 fpe, sticks, high seat, full use of scope. His intention was to create a pistol class that would compete on rifle courses with the rifle shooters. My idea is more about trying to increase participation in GP pistol matches.

I realize it would be easier to just remove the 12x rule from Limited Pistol, but every time I suggest changing the rules, people tend to freak the eff out. So let's try it this way instead.

Anyway, I've got my protective eye wear on, so let's see what unanticipated direction this post goes.
 
... or we could decrease magnification to 6x for limited class and get those hermits back into the hunter pack for actual competition...
That is a fantastic suggestion, but we are looking for ways to increase participation. Otherwise I would have suggested get rid of Hunter Pistol class because a pistol with a bipod is a crime against humanity. But since I'm in the minority on that particular opinion, I'm trying to get more participation for people that don't want to use crutches sticks.
 
you want more participation ? Maybe make an super easy class , like have a 4x4 post to rest the pistol on a bag , Standing . Now there is no free hand or kneeling or prone . I think shooters would have a great time and maybe get hooked to try PFT AS IT IS NOW ! . More of a play time attitude match after a hard day's competition FT . IF a person is having fun then it will naturally turn into a competition .
 
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I've shot "Hunter" PFT for 8-9 years now, and if More Scope was added and limited to setting on the ground or bag, omitting shootin sticks :rolleyes:
That is NOT a worth while trade. At 35 yards the use of 12x is IMO more than enough.
It is of my opinion that PFT should simply combine Hunter & Limited and allow Clicking & Sitting how wanted up to the shooters.
In terms of scores we see out west in PFT ... both classes are very equally matched .. So why 2 ?

Thus was my speaking of 20fpe Pistols on the Rifle course ... I've done it and it is not only HARD it is FUN too .... think about it.
 
Why are we always trying to change things? There's enough of a challenge shooting pistol as is.

Lots of people are turned away from shooting pistol due to a constant manipulation of the rules, if I have to rebuild another gun to conform to another rule change I will not be happy about it.

Making a 6x rule for limited, why?! Is shooting the exact same magnification as hunter some sort of advantage?

I'm curious how many people advocating for changing the limited class are actual limited pistol shooters?

I shoot limited pistol because it's more challenging than hunter pistol, it's basically WFTF but with a shorter gun. Shooting with a bipod gives near bench like stability if one knows how to do it right.

This "Open" class would need a trial of its own, leave limited class out of it imo.
We already have a hands only class for people who think a pistol off of a bipod with a scope is a crime.

Cam
 
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I've shot "Hunter" PFT for 8-9 years now, and if More Scope was added and limited to setting on the ground or bag, omitting shootin sticks :rolleyes:
That is NOT a worth while trade. At 35 yards the use of 12x is IMO more than enough.
It is of my opinion that PFT should simply combine Hunter & Limited and allow Clicking & Sitting how wanted up to the shooters.
In terms of scores we see out west in PFT ... both classes are very equally matched .. So why 2 ?

Thus was my speaking of 20fpe Pistols on the Rifle course ... I've done it and it is not only HARD it is FUN too .... think about it.
Good points

Why are we always trying to change things? There's enough of a challenge shooting pistol as is.

Lots of people are turned away from shooting pistol due to a constant manipulation of the rules, if I have to rebuild another gun to conform to another rule change I will not be happy about it.

Making a 6x rule for limited, why?! Is shooting the exact same magnification as hunter some sort of advantage?

I'm curious how many people advocating for changing the limited class are actual limited pistol shooters?

I shoot limited pistol because it's more challenging than hunter pistol, it's basically WFTF but with a shorter gun. Shooting with a bipod gives near bench like stability if one knows how to do it right.

This "Open" class would need a trial of its own, leave limited class out of it imo.
We already have a hands only class for people who think a pistol off of a bipod with a scope is a crime.

Cam
Also good points, but it hard to get on board with you when you use a position (very successfully) that most mortals can't adopt.

Here's the back story. I've tried shooting Hunter PFT for years and I've always struggled with it. I won't rest the pistol butt on my knee because I feel like that goes against the spirit of the rules. Other people find a lot of success shooting this way which is fine, I just don't think its right for me. To me, you get a bipod or you get a knee, not both. In other words, my idea of what makes pistol FT different from rifle FT is having a single point of support. Again, this is my personal opinion. I'm not saying people that rest the butt of the gun on their knee or lap are doing it wrong, I'm just not willing to do it due to my own weird beliefs.

So I've been trying Limited and I was thinking to myself "what would make this more viable and get more people to try this?" Well, I don't like shooting FT with a 12x scope, so I found a solution that may not be looking for a problem.

Since the top of the GP leader board in Limited Pistol says it's not broke, I'll stop trying to fix it.
 
Good points


Also good points, but it hard to get on board with you when you use a position (very successfully) that most mortals can't adopt.

Here's the back story. I've tried shooting Hunter PFT for years and I've always struggled with it. I won't rest the pistol butt on my knee because I feel like that goes against the spirit of the rules. Other people find a lot of success shooting this way which is fine, I just don't think its right for me. To me, you get a bipod or you get a knee, not both. In other words, my idea of what makes pistol FT different from rifle FT is having a single point of support. Again, this is my personal opinion. I'm not saying people that rest the butt of the gun on their knee or lap are doing it wrong, I'm just not willing to do it due to my own weird beliefs.

So I've been trying Limited and I was thinking to myself "what would make this more viable and get more people to try this?" Well, I don't like shooting FT with a 12x scope, so I found a solution that may not be looking for a problem.

Since the top of the GP leader board in Limited Pistol says it's not broke, I'll stop trying to fix it.

Pistol field target is shot in a way I never seen anyone else ever use a pistol. How about a "hands" class? Long eye relief scope or red dots. You can support your forearms or elbows on whatever is convenient, but the pistol itself only held by 2 hands.
 
Also good points, but it hard to get on board with you when you use a position (very successfully) that most mortals can't adopt.

Here's the back story. I've tried shooting Hunter PFT for years and I've always struggled with it. I won't rest the pistol butt on my knee because I feel like that goes against the spirit of the rules. Other people find a lot of success shooting this way which is fine, I just don't think its right for me. To me, you get a bipod or you get a knee, not both. In other words, my idea of what makes pistol FT different from rifle FT is having a single point of support. Again, this is my personal opinion. I'm not saying people that rest the butt of the gun on their knee or lap are doing it wrong, I'm just not willing to do it due to my own weird beliefs.

So I've been trying Limited and I was thinking to myself "what would make this more viable and get more people to try this?" Well, I don't like shooting FT with a 12x scope, so I found a solution that may not be looking for a problem.

Since the top of the GP leader board in Limited Pistol says it's not broke, I'll stop trying to fix it.
Good morning Scott,

Choosing not to do something that is allowed in the game that can really help you like using your knee and a bipod is a personal choice for sure. Some people cannot get into that position, but you are right far less can achieve the one Scott Hull and I both shoot. Two of the best limited pistol shooters I've shot with both shoot knees up, Tyler Patner and Riz Marquez. They are also top of the line shooters in about every type of shooting they would involve themselves in.

Have you tried it even though you personally don't like it?

If a race car driver weighs 50lbs more than the other, should the lighter driver be required to put an additional 50lbs in their car to make it an even race?

Also about the single point of contact, there aren't a ton of actual Pistol sized guns that are capable of a power level that will make all targets fall consistently. I can come up with the ranchero and the Ataman. Then there are the Modified steyrs that are 10m sized and easy to handle standing with one point of support.

Lots of us homebrew a gun that meets the requirements, and they mostly wind up being on the longer side, with a lot of weight. Trying to shoot them semi unsupported is very difficult.

I can shoot both knees up and deadman position. I actually have had a lower back injury since I was in my early twenties, it took a long time to be able to semi comfortably get into the lower style positions. It's about practice and stretching mainly. Randy Ebersole shoots with a taller bipod, both elbows on knees sits mainly upright. I've seen him nearly clean courses. I'll see if I can find a picture of it, very stable without the rear knee being used as a support.

Happy Thursday,

Cam
 
Totally envious of Scott and Cam's shooting position, shot with Scott at CA GP PFT a couple weeks ago absolute Master's lesson.
6x scope limit I suggested was intentionally specious with intent to consolidate classes due to low participation. I like seeing all shooting positions allowed in PFT.

As far as race drivers," In 2023 the minimum weight of a Formula 1 car is 798kg (1,759 lbs) including the driver".
 
Good morning Scott,

Choosing not to do something that is allowed in the game that can really help you like using your knee and a bipod is a personal choice for sure. Some people cannot get into that position, but you are right far less can achieve the one Scott Hull and I both shoot. Two of the best limited pistol shooters I've shot with both shoot knees up, Tyler Patner and Riz Marquez. They are also top of the line shooters in about every type of shooting they would involve themselves in.

Have you tried it even though you personally don't like it?

If a race car driver weighs 50lbs more than the other, should the lighter driver be required to put an additional 50lbs in their car to make it an even race?

Also about the single point of contact, there aren't a ton of actual Pistol sized guns that are capable of a power level that will make all targets fall consistently. I can come up with the ranchero and the Ataman. Then there are the Modified steyrs that are 10m sized and easy to handle standing with one point of support.

Lots of us homebrew a gun that meets the requirements, and they mostly wind up being on the longer side, with a lot of weight. Trying to shoot them semi unsupported is very difficult.

I can shoot both knees up and deadman position. I actually have had a lower back injury since I was in my early twenties, it took a long time to be able to semi comfortably get into the lower style positions. It's about practice and stretching mainly. Randy Ebersole shoots with a taller bipod, both elbows on knees sits mainly upright. I've seen him nearly clean courses. I'll see if I can find a picture of it, very stable without the rear knee being used as a support.

Happy Thursday,

Cam
I've tried shooting hunter with the butt on my knee in practice, and it is more stable. But at the end of the day, I don't want to shoot a pistol that way. I've found a position for Limited with one knee that is about as stable as I'm going to get, so I'll roll with that.
 
Just to flip flop on my former position, I'm going to stick with Hunter pistol. Limited takes an amount of practice time that I would rather spend doing something I actually enjoy.

But I got to thinking about what-ifs. What if, when Hunter pistol was started, we used Euro HFT rules for the scope. Use whatever scope you want, you just can't touch it once the shooting starts. No ranging, no clicking, no magnification changes. That is more accurate to how I actually shoot an air pistol at animals. I mean, if we are arbitrarily making something harder than it needs to be, why not fully commit? Obviously that's not how it worked out, but I can't help thinking how that would have made Hunter Pistol more interesting and different from a lighter version of regular Hunter class. And it would have given Limited more of a reason to exist. Oh well, missed opportunity.
 
Scott,
I can see that you really want to increase the shooters in Pistol.
I can see you really want to increase somebody's work too! Ha!
Good for you bud. Thanks!

Here is my take:
I have shot Hunter Pistol, HP, for a long time. I have tried Limited too.
I seldom shoot Limited since I would be the only one in that class at most events.
I would really like to shoot against others, competitively, in a limited pistol class.

The issue as I see it is that if you get 2-3 people to move to another class, it cannibalizes the other class or classes. Your just splitting the same number of competitors between classes.
I think...You need more shooters overall. Brilliant!!

The idea is to fill both classes, Right? So how do you bring in new PFT shooters? It goes back to the same problem we have with rifles, how do you get new shooters in? Well, in Pistol, it theoretically should be much easier, you get current rifle shooters to shoot pistol ALSO. How?
Who wants to spend $1000-$2000 on new equipment for a discipline that they may not enjoy a year down the road.
I have been shooting pistol at all the Arlington matches this year in hopes of enticing new shooters to pistol. Still its only me on match day!

Another issue is having a group of shooters staying another couple few hours after a rifle match for a pistol match. Right?
Those knuckleheads from Oklahoma wear themselves out trying to beat the Texans and probably need all that time and energy just drive back home with all the winnings!!!!!!

PERHAPS a course laid out such that some targets are for rifle, some for pistol, and the matches can be run simultaneously. (I had to spell check that word!)
Allow those who want, the chance to shoot both a rifle and pistol in the same match. Then you would have the strength of everybody to gather up targets and wind string before heading home.
I see it as part a logistical issue as well.

I think if you provide shooters a reasonable solution you might have more shooters.
What if there was a decent pistol, maybe under $500, that was reasonably accurate, easily tunable, scopeable, good trigger, decent shot count.....
Wait there is!!!
Actually there are a few, however the first one that comes to mind is the Benjamin Marauder. The second one is the 1701.
Both are very capable solutions.
The Marauder is a .22 which has its drawback when tuned to 12fpe but as a platform, I imagine plenty of shooters could use it in LOCAL matches.
Maybe even allow a14fpe tune for it since I think most of them shoot right around that from the factory any way.
Eliminating the need for a tune.
A stock Marauder pistol is plenty good enough for the job. I use one tuned up in Extreme PFT. Undefeated as of today!
Maybe make a SPEC class for stock Marauder shooters.
Once they shoot a few matches and are hooked, the platform is very tunable.
The 1701 is ideal except for its shot count. But how cares, fill often!!! Its accurate as hell.

Both of these pistols can be had for under $500.
A decent 12x scope is equally inexpensive.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.
Feel free to give me a call or see me at the next match.

ALSO, I will soon have a Marauder Pistol set up for PFT in Arlington, if anybody wants to try shooting pistol, just let me know in advance, I'll put your name on the list!!!! Ha!!!
I may also have a 1720T available to try at some point.

Cheers!
Pablo
Paul in N.TX
 
I can’t speak for all the country but in TX there just aren’t enough people into it. If there were a lot of people into it they would want to shoot pistol matches. The next problem is you loose a lot of your rifle shooters as they don’t own a pistol. It is very much a viable and great sport. I wish it were more popular as I have a great pistol. Me personally, though I am sure it applies to others, is that I have a lot going on the weekends. I don’t have time to shoot a rifle match, wait around for everyone to finish the rifle match, help set up a pistol match, shoot a second match, then break down the match and put the targets away.
 
Aren’t real pistols usually shot standing unsupported in most firearm disciplines? How about a class with real air Pistols shot standing unsupported instead of Pifles shot like Rifles? 😉 Let’s be honest. All Airgun pistol classes are shot with rifles that don’t have a butt stock. You CALL them pistols, but then some call Bruce Jenner a woman…
 
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