Open Pistol Class?

[thane]

Ya, strange to call them pistols.
However to make enough power to knockdown current FT targets the true air pistols with 8" and shorter barrels just can't do it. Event the WFTF have difficulty at longer distance knock downs.

We would need another set of targets.

 

[scotton]

Only time I haven't been able to knock down a target at 12 foot pounds is when shooting at an EFT style target. And some of them won't fall for me at 30 foot pounds. Not sure what targets you are using, but I practice regularly at 55 yards with Rhinos, Gamos and some others that I don't know the name of and if you hit the paddle they go down. The difficulty for WFTF at long distances isn't making the targets fall, it's hitting the actual paddle cleanly. Or I could be wrong and you have messed up targets.

And bear in mind, pistol targets only go out to 35 yards. Even a 10 meter SSP should be able to drop a target at 35 yards.

Sorry if this came off as grumpy, I'm dealing with a phone issue with ATT right now and I'm just about ready to climb a clock tower.

 

[BrazosbyNemo]

Yes the pistols used are not your typical pistol shot offhand. They definitely have the rifle element. It is much harder than it looks. Rifle is much easier. It is very much a viable and worthy FT event. The issue is getting more shooters interested and involved at the club level. At the national match or bigger state matches you can get enough participation to make it interesting.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Aren’t real pistols usually shot standing unsupported in most firearm disciplines? How about a class with real air Pistols shot standing unsupported instead of Pifles shot like Rifles? Let’s be honest. All Airgun pistol classes are shot with rifles that don’t have a butt stock. You CALL them pistols, but then some call Bruce Jenner a woman…

Mike, Yes PFT equipment is not a so called "Pistol". This game and it's rules are the outcome of a lot of arguments, and I was in on it 2009 I think, by being on the AAFTA rules committee. The west coast clubs were already shooting the Rifle courses with a modified pistol and any power scope. We had our game and some other clubs had their games, and we worked out a compromise that the BoG approved... a set of rules that many like Cameron and Scott H. Scott S. Ron the Caveman, myself and many, many others set up equipment and learned positions to compete with.

So, it's a big ask to say, let's do it like I think I would like to do it.

Sure gather input and then propose a new class... or maybe a new game... shooting offhand with no support with the equipment you propose at 35 yards and a 1.5 kill zone will result in a 10% hit rate at best and the competitor not happy with their efforts.. not good for adding people to the sport.

Now, I love the idea posted above about going back to shooting the rifle courses with our modified pistols.. that helps the manufactures sell us stuff, which in turn, allows them to support our game with prizes etc.. so we can continue to go to matches that cost the match directors way more than they collect.

I would add the Notos pistol/carbine to the air rifles that are similar to the Marauder pistol/carbine. These are great little hunting machines that are popular. A piece of equipment a new shooter is more willing to invest in when trying out a new sport.

We shot our rifle course with one we set up with an Athlon 4-20x50 Heras at 12X.. We tuned down to 12fpe, but I like the idea of allowing up to 14fpe mentioned above too.

22 cal is a slight disadvantage for getting into the 1/2" kill zones, but you get more splits, so I think that balances out... it's very effective on the rifle course and the Notos is a lot less expensive than a Marauder, and in our opinion, more accurate and better built.

So, how about making new games to suit your desires and see if anyone wants to play.. I would really like to play pistol and rifle on the same course and let that be an AAFTA class. Shoot the rifle course with a AAFTA legal pistol and the rifle course with your rifle.. 3 targets per lane and the competitors who shoot that class go last, so they don't hold up the rifle only class, or there are 2 in those squads and 3 in the rifle squads.

 

[Franklink]

.. I would really like to play pistol and rifle on the same course and let that be an AAFTA class. Shoot the rifle course with a AAFTA legal pistol and the rifle course with your rifle.. 3 targets per lane and the competitors who shoot that class go last, so they don't hold up the rifle only class, or there are 2 in those squads and 3 in the rifle squads.

Or hold people to the time constraints like at a grand prix and then there would be time to boot both rifle and pistol at the same time. Take your rifle shots, take your pistol shots.

For a couple years now I've often gone back through a course to shoot it again after the official match. Without being held up by the wind-waiters and the lollygaggers, I can shoot through a 40-50 shot rifle course in 25-30minutes, and score just as well as I did during the official match. Ie there's plenty of time to shoot both pistol and rifle, IF a time limit is enforced like at GPs.

 

[Keith Rush]

I’ll add a couple thoughts from a new shooter perspective. Had never shot the first pistol match until the Nationals this year. Don’t even have one. Thought I would jump in and try it out though, so I got to buddy up with my good friend Joe Garland. We are pretty close to the same as far as set up goes, but I still missed a few because of the difference. Managed a 31 for my first time on a borrowed gun. Had a great time with it. If I were to make any changes going forward, this I what I would suggest:

1. Move the far distance to 40-45 yds. Start with 40 next year and then adjust. Not going to lie, I felt 35 was not very difficult.

2. Add a kneeling lane or a second standing lane, to really help separate shooters.

I feel a couple of tweaks like this, there’s no need for talk about other classes. This will help separate and challenge folks enough.

Keith

 

[scotton]

I was really trying to find a reason to make myself want to shoot pistol FT more, but I think the opposite has happened. I'll just go back to shooting a pistol match once or twice a year and forgetting it exists the rest of the time.

 

[Keith Rush]

I was really trying to find a reason to make myself want to shoot pistol FT more, but I think the opposite has happened. I'll just go back to shooting a pistol match once or twice a year and forgetting it exists the rest of the time.

LOL! The opposite for sure happened for me. I have 2 pistols now. One is getting sent out tomorrow for a .177 conversion, and the other one is a project for myself. I wish there were more pistol matches at the GP’s.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Or hold people to the time constraints like at a grand prix and then there would be time to boot both rifle and pistol at the same time. Take your rifle shots, take your pistol shots.

For a couple years now I've often gone back through a course to shoot it again after the official match. Without being held up by the wind-waiters and the lollygaggers, I can shoot through a 40-50 shot rifle course in 25-30minutes, and score just as well as I did during the official match. Ie there's plenty of time to shoot both pistol and rifle, IF a time limit is enforced like at GPs.

Yes, all GP events need to be timed. The folks shooting pistol and rifle would have more time. I would envision 3 targets per lane and the pistol/rifle competitors would shoot the first two targets with their pistol and the second and third targets with their rifle all within the 1 min per shot, plus 1 minute setup time, AAFTA rules... so in this case two shots with the pistol and two shots with the rifle, ( the second target is shot both with the pistol and rifle).. so 5 mins plus another 1 min for changing from pistol to rifle, so 6 mins to shoot 4 shots with two different pieces of equipment.

The MD would use the rifle rules set for target KZs and distances, so, some targets might not fit in the "AAFTA pistol rule set", but it's a different game and should be a little harder to win the "AAFTA Combined Rifle/Pistol Championships"

just an idea

 

[drsquall]

I love the idea! You would almost have to raise max mag for the pistol to 16x. Unless pistol was shot first at each lane.

Jon

 

[scotton]

Y'all are talking about doing this combined thing at GPs? Oof, I can not get behind that at all. There's enough going on at a GP without adding 10 people that are trying to shoot a different match at the same time that they are shooting the main match. As a shooter it wouldn't affect me that much except to make an already slow match even slower. Every GP I have attended has at least a 10 minute wait on every lane, so now we are going to make that 15 minutes. And putting the pistol guys at the end doesn't work if you have a squad starting at every lane. There is no "end", it's a circle.

As a match director/course setter/assistant dishwasher, the logistics of trying to do this would make me not want to do GP matches. It's increasing the work load, increasing the planning time and making 2 long days even longer with no real benefit that I can see. At ASC, we are basically a 2 man show, and I think I can speak for both of us when I say we won't be doing this at a GP, and probably not at a monthly match. Not saying other people can't do what they want at their matches, every club's situation is different and it may make a lot of sense somewhere else. But at ASC, I don't really see the upside to doing combined rifle and pistol matches.

 

[BrazosbyNemo]

I agree with you Scott. As a MD trying to shoot up two matches in one would be a pain and have the have the squads backed up waiting.

I am hesitant to suggest this as I haven’t fully thought it thru and can see some plus and minuses and don’t want to get a bunch of hate mail. Right now we have 3 classes (I know we have 6 with piston) Hunter, WFTF, and Open. What if we added a pistol class? I am thinking a pistol that would be better suited to shooting a rifle course along side rifles Out to 55 yards. So a pistol that can be up to 20fpe, as much scope power as you want, etc. So an “Open Pistol”. Allow some dimensional changes, use of a harness or a tripod, clicking? Granted a person could do this now but would be lumped into Open class rifle which isn’t fair. The downside I see right now is it would be one more class and would dilute the number of shooters in the other classes. The big downside is it would probably destroy PFT as we know it. The upside would be for the people who really want to shoot pistol an opportunity to shoot pistol at every match and the MD only having to set up one match. I am not advocating for this. I am just looking thru the lenses of a former MD that wanted to provide PFT but just didn’t have enough people wanting to participate for the extra effort and time on my part. So if the MD won’t hold a separate match with a second PFT course then the answer is for the shooters to change their pistols to shoot the rifle course provided by the MD.

 

[Franklink]

Or hold people to the time.....Ie there's plenty of time to shoot both pistol and rifle, IF a time limit is enforced.....

Blows me away to see how long it takes some guys to complete a lane.

Semi-related examples...
Ranges are known in both examples so that makes it a bit faster than AAFTA.
High power/long range field target here in AZ, 4 minutes to take 4 shots. 90% of the time all 4 of my shots are gone before a minute has elapsed on the timer. If the wind is tricky I might take 90 seconds. and I usually single feed. I've seen guys run out of time! WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN!?!?

American Field Target at EBR this year. I don't how much time we were alotted, but it was plenty....maybe 6 minutes for 8 shots? With a minute to set up and another couple minutes to get from one lane to the next. A guy freaked out that he was too rushed and actually threw a tantrum and quit! Literally threw a fit like a toddler and quit after the second lane b/c he didn't feel there was enough time. We all shot the same course and had the same time buddy. Again, I single fed and finished with MINUTES to spare on each lane.

I'm not bragging that I'm a fast shooter so much as I'm wondering what the heck guys can be doing to not be able to take 4 shots in 4 minutes. That's an actual 60 seconds per shot!

While I just can't wrap my brain around it, I also see it at every AAFTA field target event I go to. Guys spend 5 minutes getting set up, another couple minutes ranging the first target, another couple minutes shooting twice. Another couple minutes ranging the second target, another couple minutes shooting the second target twice. 15+ minutes later theyre finally done with the lane. And there's still another shooter or two in that squad that still need to address the lane!

It doesn't need to be a speed event, but it dang sure doesn't need to take 15 or more minutes for a guy to take four shots!

 

[drsquall]

Blows me away to see how long it takes some guys to complete a lane.

Semi-related examples...
Ranges are known in both examples so that makes it a bit faster than AAFTA.
High power/long range field target here in AZ, 4 minutes to take 4 shots. 90% of the time all 4 of my shots are gone before a minute has elapsed on the timer. If the wind is tricky I might take 90 seconds. and I usually single feed. I've seen guys run out of time! WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN!?!?

American Field Target at EBR this year. I don't how much time we were alotted, but it was plenty....maybe 6 minutes for 8 shots? With a minute to set up and another couple minutes to get from one lane to the next. A guy freaked out that he was too rushed and actually threw a tantrum and quit! Literally threw a fit like a toddler and quit after the second lane b/c he didn't feel there was enough time. We all shot the same course and had the same time buddy. Again, I single fed and finished with MINUTES to spare on each lane.

I'm not bragging that I'm a fast shooter so much as I'm wondering what the heck guys can be doing to not be able to take 4 shots in 4 minutes. That's an actual 60 seconds per shot!

While I just can't wrap my brain around it, I also see it at every AAFTA field target event I go to. Guys spend 5 minutes getting set up, another couple minutes ranging the first target, another couple minutes shooting twice. Another couple minutes ranging the second target, another couple minutes shooting the second target twice. 15+ minutes later theyre finally done with the lane. And there's still another shooter or two in that squad that still need to address the lane!

It doesn't need to be a speed event, but it dang sure doesn't need to take 15 or more minutes for a guy to take four shots!

I agree I happen to be in my last match in a squad of three and it took us forever because there was no time limit. Every match I don't even care if it's local and it's associated with Field Target should be on the timer. If you don't make it you don't make it I don't feel sorry for you. What's frustrating though is shooting Hunter class is a bunch of older folks and they just don't get in a hurry.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Y'all are talking about doing this combined thing at GPs? Oof, I can not get behind that at all. There's enough going on at a GP without adding 10 people that are trying to shoot a different match at the same time that they are shooting the main match. As a shooter it wouldn't affect me that much except to make an already slow match even slower. Every GP I have attended has at least a 10 minute wait on every lane, so now we are going to make that 15 minutes. And putting the pistol guys at the end doesn't work if you have a squad starting at every lane. There is no "end", it's a circle.

As a match director/course setter/assistant dishwasher, the logistics of trying to do this would make me not want to do GP matches. It's increasing the work load, increasing the planning time and making 2 long days even longer with no real benefit that I can see. At ASC, we are basically a 2 man show, and I think I can speak for both of us when I say we won't be doing this at a GP, and probably not at a monthly match. Not saying other people can't do what they want at their matches, every club's situation is different and it may make a lot of sense somewhere else. But at ASC, I don't really see the upside to doing combined rifle and pistol matches.

So what if the pistol/rifle combo class shoots each target once like World class competitors, so it's the same number of shots as our normal GPs that shoot four shots at two targets and they only get 30 seconds extra to do the switching from pistol to rifle...; Pistol is shot first.

That won't hold up anything to speak of. The MD would have to have three targets on 10 of the lanes for the pistols only to shoot, and the second pistol/first rifle target only has to be a legal rifle target... if 't tough for the pistol shooters all the better to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[scotton]

It's not the second shot that holds things up, it's all the faffing around before and after the timer goes on. Again, y'all do what you want, this just feels like a solution looking for a problem to me.

 

[Airgunoregon]

It's not the second shot that holds things up, it's all the faffing around before and after the timer goes on. Again, y'all do what you want, this just feels like a solution looking for a problem to me.

I totally agree that's the hardest thing to control at a match.... getting your stuff in the shooting box, and setting it all up before you sit down and look through the scope and the clock starts... then picking up your stuff and getting out of the way for the next shooter.

That's really hard to police, especially with some of the older shooters who really can't move fast... but for others who don't have that excuse I'd like a timer between lanes too... but lanes can be far apart or close together.. so how can you have a universal rule?

But that is a separate issue from the one I'm proposing..

It can really only be ideas that local small matches might experiment with.. like we did before AAFTA even had a Pistol game... and we shot the rifle course with our modified pistols... just for fun.

 

[Franklink]

It can really only be ideas that local small matches might experiment with.. like we did before AAFTA even had a Pistol game... and we shot the rifle course with our modified pistols... just for fun.

Over at the Southwestern Airgunners matches in NM this summer we set 3 targets per lane, 10 lanes. Rifle shot at all three, for a 60 shot match. Pistol shot at near and middle for a 40 shot match. We didn't shoot both rifle and pistol on the same pass through the course though (as discussed above), but came back through for the pistol match after lunch.

It worked really well. Cut down on the work, less ups and downs for older shooters. Some of the far pistol (middle distance overall) weren't quite AAFTA GP legal, but it was challenging and fun.

 

[scotton]

Over at the Southwestern Airgunners matches in NM this summer we set 3 targets per lane, 10 lanes. Rifle shot at all three, for a 60 shot match. Pistol shot at near and middle for a 40 shot match. We didn't shoot both rifle and pistol on the same pass through the course though (as discussed above), but came back through for the pistol match after lunch.

It worked really well. Cut down on the work, less ups and downs for older shooters. Some of the far pistol (middle distance overall) weren't quite AAFTA GP legal, but it was challenging and fun.

That's essentially what I've done for our monthly match tomorrow. I added two lanes and I'll have to swap out two targets and move a few. It wasn't too much extra work, but for the number of pistol shooters I'm anticipating, its not really worth doing more than once or twice a year.