What's the general consensus on what the best caliber is for ELR (I'm talking over 300 yds)?
Optimal caliber for ELR?
- Thread starter Stretch
- Start date
For airguns, I would argue that .257 is the most accurate. 1:14 twist with 70gr to 72gr projectiles at anywhere from 920fps to 1020fps. For me at least, good out to 300yds+.
So for shooting paper, then .257 can be "optimal"
But what do you mean by "optimal"? What do you intend to do with the air rifle? I built mine for long range target shooting. One drawback of the .257 is that it has barely enough energy for the main ELR competitions which require activation of substantial steel targets. The scorer might not always see an impact on a shot up silhouette target. Or hear the impact 2 seconds after firing. Optimally, your shot needs to move the target a visible amount. I might give up a few points for that reason, but usually make up for it with a higher hit percentage.
Maybe a .308 or larger caliber would be more "optimal" in that case, but it does not yet have the proven history or data of the .257 for long range airguns.
So for shooting paper, then .257 can be "optimal"
But what do you mean by "optimal"? What do you intend to do with the air rifle? I built mine for long range target shooting. One drawback of the .257 is that it has barely enough energy for the main ELR competitions which require activation of substantial steel targets. The scorer might not always see an impact on a shot up silhouette target. Or hear the impact 2 seconds after firing. Optimally, your shot needs to move the target a visible amount. I might give up a few points for that reason, but usually make up for it with a higher hit percentage.
Maybe a .308 or larger caliber would be more "optimal" in that case, but it does not yet have the proven history or data of the .257 for long range airguns.
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Sorry, I should have included that my interest is target shooting, paper or steel. I've been shooting .22 to 200 yds but am thinking about moving up in caliber for longer distances. I've been leaning towards .257 but thought I'd ask before making the plunge.
What rifle are you shooting? Right now I have a couple Airforce Condors and I'll probably pick up a Texan or "super size" one of my Condors. I'm on a relatively lean budget so I'll be limited to premade slugs (probably from NSA or similar).
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Started as a Benjamin Armada. Now a bottle gun with Cothran valve, custom breach, and 36" TJ barrel liner. It was a lengthy development project. Knowing what I know now, I would look at the Texan .257 long.
I cast and size my own slugs. If you do much shooting, that is the most economical solution. But you can buy the same ones premade:
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Here's my externally regulated .22 cal Escape. I'm shooting 27.5 hollow point slugs at 950 fps and with the external bottle I get 50+ shots per fill. I'd like to build something similar in .257.
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I'd say just get a barrel for your escape .257 or .250. Buy some casting equipment lee is.cheap and lead is$1.00 a pound. 
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Building a condor will be far more expensive .. compared to buying a texan that goes used for $900 .no custom machining needed buy or cast your own n shoot.. I build a condor -.257 before texan we're aviable..easy a $1700+ buid I really enjoy when I have the time to used .. I use that one for light bullets up to $85g .. building another for 100g bullets.. that is the heaviest bullet I could move at 1000fps with a 33" barrel at 3200psi . Rcbs 257-100 - n lyman 257-428 -- and a really rare to find 98g B&M Spitzer .. barrels are Tj --- 1-9 n 1-8 twist.
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Excuse my appaling ignorance when it comes to bigger bores than .22 and when it comes to the REAL long range shooting.
Bear with me and my questions:
(1) Why are there not more airguns in .257 caliber?
(2) What makes a .257 so much better than a .25?
(3) So, the only gun that comes in .257 is the Texan? What other options are there (bullpup?)?
Thanks..
Matthias
Bear with me and my questions:
(1) Why are there not more airguns in .257 caliber?
(2) What makes a .257 so much better than a .25?
(3) So, the only gun that comes in .257 is the Texan? What other options are there (bullpup?)?
Thanks..
Matthias
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Q1 - I think that most people using 100 fpe + airguns want heavier slugs for hunting big game than .257. .257 is on the light side for deer.
Q2 - Here in the USA .257 turned out to be the caliber of choice for centerfire which is often referred to as 1/4 bore.
My guess is .250 is what became popular for airguns because its 6.35mm. .257 would be 6.52mm.
I hate the way Airforce guns look, don't like the tank in the rear, I read about frame flex, other negative things, 'but would like a "solidly built target oriented" pcp in possibly 6.5 or 7mm with the air delivery system like in the Huben and with large reservoir.
Q2 - Here in the USA .257 turned out to be the caliber of choice for centerfire which is often referred to as 1/4 bore.
My guess is .250 is what became popular for airguns because its 6.35mm. .257 would be 6.52mm.
I hate the way Airforce guns look, don't like the tank in the rear, I read about frame flex, other negative things, 'but would like a "solidly built target oriented" pcp in possibly 6.5 or 7mm with the air delivery system like in the Huben and with large reservoir.
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Thanks, Steve, for your detailed responses.
Yupp, I feel about Airforce the same way. Big tank is good, big power is good, but please, in a smaller package.
Matthias
Yupp, I feel about Airforce the same way. Big tank is good, big power is good, but please, in a smaller package.
Matthias
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Where is @Flintsack? He stretches the range on his guns out quite a bit. I’d like to hear his input. And @jwrabbit123 as well.
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This 1-14 Lilja barreled .257 Scandalous & I have held a consistent sub 2" group at 400 yards when tethered to a step down in-line reg. It is a true hole on top of hole 1/8' 100 yard shooter. I was shooting it at 3600psi but it does fine from 2800-3200psi also. At 3000psi it's sending a 72 grain .2573" Griffin at 1080fps.
I plan on taking it out tomorrow, probably with a 4.5-27 Athlon Midas on it, as I haven't shot it since having Precision Rifle Works thread the barrel & 3D print a spacer. It did not need a spacer as it came perfectly from John Bowman; but that heavy Emperor .357 LDC had me thinking I was definitely going to need it. I'll post results at some point.
I plan on taking it out tomorrow, probably with a 4.5-27 Athlon Midas on it, as I haven't shot it since having Precision Rifle Works thread the barrel & 3D print a spacer. It did not need a spacer as it came perfectly from John Bowman; but that heavy Emperor .357 LDC had me thinking I was definitely going to need it. I'll post results at some point.
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Excuse my appaling ignorance when it comes to bigger bores than .22 and when it comes to the REAL long range shooting.
Bear with me and my questions:
(1) Why are there not more airguns in .257 caliber?
(2) What makes a .257 so much better than a .25?
(3) So, the only gun that comes in .257 is the Texan? What other options are there (bullpup?)?
Thanks..
Matthias
1) The typical .257 projectiles need higher fpe than most airguns can deliver. Very few meet that requirement.
2) The .257 airgun borrows from the 25-20 (.25 WCF) black powder center-fire. It was relatively low-pressure/low-velocity for a center-fire. It shot fairly well at trans-sonic velocities. The 1:14 twist barrel and the 257420 bullets designed for that cartridge work well when used in an airgun and pushed hard.
3) Someone over on the GTA converted a Benjamin Bulldog to a .257 bullpup. And I have seen other conversions for sale:
BENJAMIN BULLDOG .257 Regulated - Airgun Revisions
YES THATS RIGHT, A .257 REGULATED BULLDOG. 68-74gr AMMO GIVES YOU LASER ACCURACY AT 100+ YARDS. The .257 Bulldog by AR is built to order REGULATED 140fpe 5-8fps spread 5 round mag 3600psi fill M18 muzzle threads 5 year warranty ALL BENJAMIN BUILD PER AIRGUN REVISIONS STANDARDS
www.airgunrevisions.com Last edited:
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Thanks for those details, so the .257 uses bullets usually used for PB — which usually means high BC and low price. 
A couple of years ago I assembled a visual comparison table with to-scale photos of all bullpups, close to 40 (below).
One bullpup I banned from the table.
It made my eyes bleed. Even after wearing safety glasses. And a welding shield.
My eyes bleed very time.
The cause of the hemorrhaging:
இ The Benjamin Bulldog.
It's 3 am in my location, I finished work, did 15min of airgun relaxation, and I'm heading to bed now.
But I just know that sometime between now and 8 am I will be waking up with a scream, ending a visual nightmare centered around the picture of the bulldog.
Matthias
Attachment:
Bullpup Photo Comparison Table
A couple of years ago I assembled a visual comparison table with to-scale photos of all bullpups, close to 40 (below).
One bullpup I banned from the table.
It made my eyes bleed. Even after wearing safety glasses. And a welding shield.
My eyes bleed very time.
The cause of the hemorrhaging:
இ The Benjamin Bulldog.
It's 3 am in my location, I finished work, did 15min of airgun relaxation, and I'm heading to bed now.
But I just know that sometime between now and 8 am I will be waking up with a scream, ending a visual nightmare centered around the picture of the bulldog.
Matthias
Attachment:
Bullpup Photo Comparison Table
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I have to agree the 257 is king for long range , i see someone asking why it is better then say a ,22 or .25 caliber ,
OK lets look at this , the 22 cal or 25 cal shoots 20 to 40ish grain slugs , while the 257 shoots 72 to 100 gr slugs , not only is bc much better but the weight and mass makes a huge difference long range .
OK take 2 powder burner the 22-250 and the 50 BMG the 22 250 is a fast shooting gun around 4000fps and if you got a fast twist you can shoot up to 69 gr slugs instead of the 40gr ones , the range of accuracy is say 450 yards , Now lets look at the extreme 50 BMG ok well it is a slower bullet 2900 fps and can shoot a AMAX 750 grain with a BC of .1.050 G1 bc and has a range of 3500 yards , so speed is not everything , mass and aerodynamics are king for long range hope this helps on why . LOU
OK lets look at this , the 22 cal or 25 cal shoots 20 to 40ish grain slugs , while the 257 shoots 72 to 100 gr slugs , not only is bc much better but the weight and mass makes a huge difference long range .
OK take 2 powder burner the 22-250 and the 50 BMG the 22 250 is a fast shooting gun around 4000fps and if you got a fast twist you can shoot up to 69 gr slugs instead of the 40gr ones , the range of accuracy is say 450 yards , Now lets look at the extreme 50 BMG ok well it is a slower bullet 2900 fps and can shoot a AMAX 750 grain with a BC of .1.050 G1 bc and has a range of 3500 yards , so speed is not everything , mass and aerodynamics are king for long range hope this helps on why . LOU
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Thanks!
So, it's not the size of the caliber .257 that makes it superior. to say .25, since .25 and .257 are almost the same in size.
The .257 is superior because we in the shooting community have made it to be:
▪ We have a whole slew of high BC projectiles in that size (usually made for PB, and therfore for AG very heavy), plenty and cheap because made commercially, for PB.
▪ We have barrels in that size that have been designed with a twist rate appropriate to projectiles that are "slow" for PB — and "fast" for AG.
Now, I am very much liking the idea of the "all-round gun" — a gun that can do a little bit of everything. But most of us have so many guns that we can easily have "specialist guns" — and in fact I keep hearing of airgunners having "dedicated slug guns."
Soooo, instead of
• menticulously testing a myriad of slugs — and still only getting mediocre precision, and instead of
• shooting airgun slugs that have a higher BC than pellets — but still only getting a pretty low BC in comparison to powder burner slugs....
➔ it seems like the next thing in airgun design would be more guns with .257 barrels and the appropriate power to drive the heavy PB projectiles.
● Wouldn't that be better than buying an expensive gun, and then spending additional money on "accessories" to buy "slug barrels" and "slug liners" —
and spending even more money on "mods" to install "slug power kits" and "power plenums"....?
● Wouldn't that be a niche that some airgun manufacturer could move in — one that so far has gotten no slice from the "AG accessory pie" and the "AG modding cake"....?
Plz, don't mind my rambling, it's still early for me and I need a strong coffee.
Matthias
So, it's not the size of the caliber .257 that makes it superior. to say .25, since .25 and .257 are almost the same in size.
The .257 is superior because we in the shooting community have made it to be:
▪ We have a whole slew of high BC projectiles in that size (usually made for PB, and therfore for AG very heavy), plenty and cheap because made commercially, for PB.
▪ We have barrels in that size that have been designed with a twist rate appropriate to projectiles that are "slow" for PB — and "fast" for AG.
Now, I am very much liking the idea of the "all-round gun" — a gun that can do a little bit of everything. But most of us have so many guns that we can easily have "specialist guns" — and in fact I keep hearing of airgunners having "dedicated slug guns." Soooo, instead of • menticulously testing a myriad of slugs — and still only getting mediocre precision, and instead of
• shooting airgun slugs that have a higher BC than pellets — but still only getting a pretty low BC in comparison to powder burner slugs....
➔ it seems like the next thing in airgun design would be more guns with .257 barrels and the appropriate power to drive the heavy PB projectiles.
● Wouldn't that be better than buying an expensive gun, and then spending additional money on "accessories" to buy "slug barrels" and "slug liners" —
and spending even more money on "mods" to install "slug power kits" and "power plenums"....?
● Wouldn't that be a niche that some airgun manufacturer could move in — one that so far has gotten no slice from the "AG accessory pie" and the "AG modding cake"....?
Plz, don't mind my rambling, it's still early for me and I need a strong coffee.
Matthias
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Why manufacture a gun that is ready to go when you can sell accessories later for more money ? IF you have a ready to go gun it would sell for way more
putting it above $3000.00 (above most budgets) and not be customized to the shooter's IDEA of perfect. the dreams of most long range shooters i know.
putting it above $3000.00 (above most budgets) and not be customized to the shooter's IDEA of perfect. the dreams of most long range shooters i know.
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Tell ya the truth it was disappointing, only because current fill apparatus will not allow me to shoot it simultaneously w/LDC & step down in-line reg. Maybe there's a shorter 45* QD FF that would allow clearance. This was the first time I had fired it with the .357 Emperor on it. Wish I could shoot it like that while tethered but no can do for groups. On a 3600psi fill it'll yield 3 shots that are predictable enough for varmint hunting of reasonable ranges. Thankfully there's no mentionable POI change with that monster can on/off. I highly doubt I'm going to buy a good thermal & hunt coyotes, but it's capable. I honestly wouldn't want to carry it.
I was laying prone and shooting at a 0* angle target 105yrds out. I wasn't as early as I liked and the wind had picked up let alone the mirage was pretty dam bad at ground level. I tried a Athlon Midas but I don't like the reticle. Went back to the SWFA 16X. Groups were good when I did good. I got 3 inside of 1" 3 times but that was out of like 60 shots.
Edit: I should say I started around 3200psi, dialing it in I saw as hot as 980fps but I settled at 3K and 944fps. I recently sold a compressor and probably plan on selling this because optimum speed is currently configured for a 3600psi fill, yielding 1080fps w/a 72 grain .2573" Griffing RBT. I could easily buy another big compressor (or see if a Hill pump cause a heart attack lol) but since I moved I just don't care to drag everything out. I use to be able to shoot 300-400 yards off my front porch. Believe me the Scandalous can shoot. IDK, maybe I will buy a Edgun or FX and just hand pump it once a week, turn it down to 12ft/lbs, get 300 shots.
It was just pretty windy, I should have a better scope & I am still not sure if all the others that I don't think I pulled were due to mirage, or more wind. So nothing great to show but thanks for asking.
I was laying prone and shooting at a 0* angle target 105yrds out. I wasn't as early as I liked and the wind had picked up let alone the mirage was pretty dam bad at ground level. I tried a Athlon Midas but I don't like the reticle. Went back to the SWFA 16X. Groups were good when I did good. I got 3 inside of 1" 3 times but that was out of like 60 shots.
Edit: I should say I started around 3200psi, dialing it in I saw as hot as 980fps but I settled at 3K and 944fps. I recently sold a compressor and probably plan on selling this because optimum speed is currently configured for a 3600psi fill, yielding 1080fps w/a 72 grain .2573" Griffing RBT. I could easily buy another big compressor (or see if a Hill pump cause a heart attack lol) but since I moved I just don't care to drag everything out. I use to be able to shoot 300-400 yards off my front porch. Believe me the Scandalous can shoot. IDK, maybe I will buy a Edgun or FX and just hand pump it once a week, turn it down to 12ft/lbs, get 300 shots.
It was just pretty windy, I should have a better scope & I am still not sure if all the others that I don't think I pulled were due to mirage, or more wind. So nothing great to show but thanks for asking.
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I know is not going to happen..but if someone makes something like this in 224 or 257 ..I'm in who ever the manufacturer is ... or now that I see is plausible I go the bulldog route in both calibers.. in 224 .50g in 257 ..75g .in this configuration the AAA with 32 in barrel and a longer air tube ..would be a killer gun ....the bulldog could use a 33 inch barrel n not be longer than the actual gun that has 29" + some shroud space.
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