PA now has Ataman guns listed.

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Like most of you I haven't seen an Ataman in person yet but, from looking at the specs, they seem to be a fair bit more powerful than the other premium bullpups so it's not surprising that they would get fewer shots. I am assuming that you can turn the power down to increase shot count like on every other PCP gun (even if it means changing the hammer spring). 

My understanding is that Ataman are a direct competitor to Kalibrgun in their home country so they would naturally price them at a similar level. They have been around for a while so they probably don't think of themselves as a new brand who has yet to prove their worth. American Air Arms ask for $1900 for their first product with no track record at all and they don't even have to ship across the Atlantic....

At the end of the day, they are another regulated bullpup with a LW barrel. I'm not sure it brings anything new but it's another option for us when buying ourselves a new toy. The style of their bullpups isn't my taste (I prefer a modern look) but their AR-style carbines look interesting. They list some nice options on their website too (like carbon fiber stocks). I can't imagine their custom packages are any more price friendly but I like more choice!

As for quality issues, I can't think of many PCP brands that don't have them. FX, Edgun and Kalibrgun all have common issues, especially with new models. It's an industry with poor quality control in general so why would Ataman be any different? Companies like FX seem to try and correct their issues at least. As far as I can tell, Kalibrgun has made no effort to fix the indexing issues on the Cricket.

Being sold through PA is a major advantage to the Ataman. They are the most helpful vendor when it comes to dealing with issues. With one phone call, they will let you return an air gun at their cost. 
 
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I was curious about the aspect of this rifle needing a 4350 psi fill to reach the maximum shot count 35 to 45 in .22 and 25 caliber.I wonder what the refill level would be when it comes off the regulator. It seems to me you would either need to have a fill compressor with you at all times to fill the rifle directly or expect to only get a few meager fills off even a 4500 psi larger cf tank. I just wonder why such a high operating pressure for these air rifles. Bill
 
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"AirgunBill"FukoChan why do you love the higher fill pressure which only gives a minimal increase of fpe in the .22 and 25 cal. and about the same or less shots per fill than other pcp rifles. Bill
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Higher fill pressure is not meant to increase power. It is purely for shot count. The Ataman models listed seem to have a comparable shot count to other PCP rifles with similar power. Note the Ataman guns are more powerful than most. More power = less shots. You could almost certainly increase shot count by adjusting the hammer spring and or reg. Their .25 puts out 10fpe more than the Wildcat, Cricket or Vulcan. Their 9mm is nearly twice as powerful as the Hatsan Carnivore. I'm curious to see (I mean hear) how loud it is....

just because you can fill to 4500 psi doesn't mean you have to. My .25 Cricket can be filled to 300 bar (4500 psi) but I fill it to 250 bar which gives me at least 60 consistent shots. When my tank gets low, I fill it to 3000 psi and even less sometimes. I get fewer shots until I fill up but I still get more than most rifles that are limited to 3000 psi. It's nice to have to option of filling up more before a hunting trip instead of carrying a spare cylinder. I could easily manage with 30-45 shots on most hunts if it's accurate.

There is something to be said for having the option to trade shot count for power if you want to hunt slightly larger game or shoot further down-range, as long as you can turn the power down for extended plinking. I don't see it as a problem.

More importantly, I really like the look of their carbine with the AR style stock so I want it to be great. The Cricket has satisfied my bullpup craving but my carbine need has yet to be filled....

 
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Zebra you say at 250 bar fill you get 60 shots which I say is very good. The Ataman says 300 bar for 35 shots in .25 caliber which is not close to what you are getting. I wonder what the Ataman would get shot count wise with a 250 bar fill. I see the Wildcat in .25 caliber puts out 47 fpe for about 50 to 60 shots at a 230 bar fill. The Ataman puts out about 55 fpe which isn't enough to me to make much difference to me in my hunting. If I am not mistaken the Cricket in .25 puts out about the same fpe as the Wildcat. How far down do you take your Cricket down to fill/psi to get 60 shots. I am not wanting to get into the typical pissing match about rifle models that occurs much too much on this forum. What I am wondering how many fills you can get out of a CF 4500 psi tank with a 4350 psi fill rifle and at what cost. I am going to be getting a .25 cal bullpup in the future and it will probably be the Wildcat. It just seems to have the features I want. I have a Great White 97 cu ft 4500 psi tank and with the Wildcat fills to 230 bar/3300 psi and shot down to 150 bar/ 2175 psi I should get 50 to 60 shots per fill. At this rate I will get 31.9 rifle fills on my tank. If i get 50 shots per fill and 32 fills that translates into 1600 shots per tank fill. Now fill the Ataman to 4350 psi fill and shoot down to 3325 psi using about the same amount of air as the Wildcat or 1125 psi. Now how many 35 shot tank fills would you get for your 4350 psi starting fill level. Using my tank fill calculator I get 5.3 fill times at 35 shots for a total of 185 shots for all that extra pressure vs my 1600 shots. Now I don't know in fact what ending pressure the Ataman will be once you shoot 35 shots. That is why i am wondering if it would be similar to your Cricket which does seem to efficiently use its air. That's why I wonder the benefit of having a rifle with such a high fill pressure when people have 4500 psi cf tanks and how often you would be running to the scuba shop to get it filled. That is why I made the comment about having a compressor always nearby with this rifle. Once again my point was not to get into a fight about rifle models. If you like he Ataman go for it for whatever reason. Bill
 
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Hi Airgunbill

I agree that the extra 8-10fpe is not enough to make a huge difference for hunting so I would also prefer to increase shot count and reduce noise. My Cricket makes short work of anything up to raccoon sized animals already. I know from using the power wheel on my Career 707 that small increases in power can make a disproportionate difference to how much air is used and noise. The 707 gets 10 shots at 90fpe (51g pellets) or 40 shots @ 50fpe. 

If shot count is a problem, it is sometimes because the wrong air gun for the job is being used. For example, if you plan to plink or target shoot hundreds of pellets for the afternoon, you probably wouldn't choose a Benjamin Bulldog. If you are hunting small pigs, it's 5-10 powerful shots is plenty. The Atamans looks more like hunters than target shooters to me..

Your great white is a "1 hour tank". I have two 30 minute cf tanks that I fill to 4500 psi for $12 (for both). You only get to fill anything to 4500 psi once as the tanks obviously drop below that pressure immediately. I use air guns every day and I get them filled every 2 months.

With the reg, the only difference between filling to 4000 psi vs 3000 psi is shot count. (It isn't recommended that you fill a Cricket to 4500psi). Filling with a tank is quick and easy so there is no problem filling more regularly when the tanks get low. I get the tanks refilled when they drop below 2500 psi. Those fill calculators only calculate how many fills you get for the number you set. E.g., if you say you fill to 4000 psi, it will exclude all of the 3700 and 3400 psi fills you get in addition. You'll get a lot of fills with your great white with any air gun.

I prefer tanks to any of the less expensive compressors (like the shoebox) which seem to fill very slowly in comparison. Some are more like motorized hand pumps. Decent compressors start at $3,000. I would only buy a shoebox if I ran helium and couldn't find a source of 4500 psi fills. It would be nice to have both i suppose.

I have my Cricket hammer spring adjuster set to a little below full power usually. It puts out around 48fpe depending on the pellet. It puts out a fair bit more if I use my 58g hollow points in single shot if I need more stopping power.

​The Cricket is known to have a particularly efficient valve and reg combo so it makes good use of it's air. It also has a fairly large reservoir so it's not a fair comparison with many other guns. I guess the real test for the Ataman will be to see how many shots it gets when turned down to 48fpe with the same H&N Baracuda hunter extreme's I use. We would then want to adjust the numbers for any differences in cylinder volume. Barrel length should probably be considered too. 

I am totally in favor of finding a balance between power, accuracy, shot count and noise. These are things that can usually be tuned to your liking on a decent PCP rifle so I wouldn't rule out an Ataman based on the factory settings if you liked everything else. E.g. If it's accuracy, the way it looks, the weight, balance, price etc. 

For me, the biggest problem with the Ataman bullpups is the way they look. I am a bullpup fan but their stocks look ugly. Given a choice, I would go Wildcat over Ataman too. It looks nicer and it's lighter. My choice was between the Wildcat and the Cricket. I would have been happy with either. I chose the Cricket because it is 2" shorter and I didn't want to deal with new model teething problems (I have particularly bad luck with buying air guns). The Vulcan looked interest too but I. don't like wood on bullpup and I wanted a longer barrel.

It's a fun time to be in the market for a bullpup!

What do you mainly use you air rifles for?



 
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Zebra thanks for your detailed thoughts. I am getting back into air rifles after a 15 year absence. I have spent that period of time shooting groundhogs mainly with centerfire rifles and sometimes rimfires as the conditions dictate. That is partly why I am getting back into air rifles as I feel it isn't safe with centerfires and even rimfires around barns and outbuilding with people around going after groundhogs. Years ago where I used to work we had a groundhog problem and between my Talon SS 22 w/ 25 fpe and Career 710 Tanker 22 w/34 fpe I took out well over 200 groundhog in two years out to about 35 yards. With groundhog populations declining mainly because of me I was looking for more shooting opportunities. A lot of the farms I shoot have pigeons and now I found some with rat problems too. This fall is the first time I have shot rats at night with my Hatsan AT 44 10 with my ATN X-Sight and what a blast. So I decided to order an FX Verminator in .22 cal. which will easily get over 100 shots per fill and I won't have to be filling it in the pitch dark. It is compact and light and has many other great features too. It will also make a great small game rifle for squirrels and rabbits too. Now I still would like a higher power air rifle for shooting groundhogs out to say 50 yards or so that is why I am looking at the FX Wildcat. The characteristics of the Wildcat including quietness should make it well suited to shooting around barns and outbuilding with the proper backstop. As far as the Ataman rifle and its suitability all boils down to your needs and uses. Now I am mainly talking about the .22 and .25 calibers which have wider use rate. The 9mm is pretty specifically larger game. Like many people I have to travel pretty far to get my tanks filled. My whole point with the Ataman rifles it seemed with such a high fill pressure that is 4350 psi and only getting only 35 shots in .25 caliber you won't be shooting much before your main fill tank runs out of air. My 97 cu ft Great White is one of the largest tanks out there and you will probably be lucky to get a few fills off it. Now if all you are going to do with the Ataman is just hunt and take a few shots a day you will be fine. However if I spent all that money on a air rifle I would like to do some shooting. In that case be prepared to be making air runs. Bill
 
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"FukoChan"
"AirgunBill"FukoChan why do you love the higher fill pressure which only gives a minimal increase of fpe in the .22 and 25 cal. and about the same or less shots per fill than other pcp rifles. Bill
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Wouldn't higher fill pressure but similar air capacity mean either higher fpe shots or more shots per fill?
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It would deliver more shots per fill but not higher fpe. Two reasons: It's a regulated gun so it will put out consistent energy from a full cylinder all the way down until it drops off the reg. That is what the reg is specifically used for. The second reason is that higher pressure in the cylinder makes it harder to depress the valve piston when the hammer strikes so the valve stays open for less time than it does when struck at lower fill pressures.

In practice, a non-regulated gun is more powerful at higher fill pressures for the first few shots and then it gets progressively less powerful with each additional shot. Some more than other but the difference in power is not proportionate to the increase in pressure though. You would get to a point where the hammer strike would not be powerful enough to open the valve at all if you keep increasing the pressure. You would also get far fewer useful shots as you use most of your air in the first 5-15. The noise is worse too.

More power in pcp rifles comes from a greater volume of air moving through the barrel. The same volume of air released from a higher psi cylinder would not produce a noticeable power difference. 

If you look at what the regulators are set to release, you'll see that 1500 psi is plenty to launch a 25 cal projectile. The older big bores were apparently battle capable at only 800psi .

Storing 4000 psi instead of 2000psi just means there is twice the volume of air. You could use that to double the shot count or you could widen the valve and / or use a stronger hammer spring to achieve more power from the same number of shots. In the Ataman, Cricket, wildcat etc, the higher psi storage allows them to carry more air without the extra weight of a larger cylinder. That's all.

In any of these guns you could remove the reg and your first few shots would be more powerful. You don't want this though as the poi shifts with the change in power so your scope zero would be no good. High quality non-regulated guns are designed to minimize this effect as a higher extreme spread is considered a problem.

The most effective way to increase the power on a pcp rifle is to use helium instead of air. Helium is considerably lighter so a greater volume can be stored in the same sized cylinder. More importantly, when the hammer strikes the valve a greater volume is released for the same psi. Check out the Extreme Big Bore site where they show the performance of their guns with air and helium. Guns that put out 450fpe with air can reach 1350fpe with helium. It's an amazing difference. 

You can use helium in any pcp rifle if you have a 3000 psi or 4500 psi source (tanks can be rented). A member on a another forum claimed to be running helium with a BSA rifle and getting 180fpe instead of the 30-40fpe with air.

I am curious to try helium in the Cricket but I just don't need the extra power (or noise). The squirrels I enjoy killing go down like a granny on ice at 48fpe so.....



 
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"AirgunBill"Zebra thanks for your detailed thoughts. I am getting back into air rifles after a 15 year absence. I have spent that period of time shooting groundhogs mainly with centerfire rifles and sometimes rimfires as the conditions dictate. That is partly why I am getting back into air rifles as I feel it isn't safe with centerfires and even rimfires around barns and outbuilding with people around going after groundhogs. Years ago where I used to work we had a groundhog problem and between my Talon SS 22 w/ 25 fpe and Career 710 Tanker 22 w/34 fpe I took out well over 200 groundhog in two years out to about 35 yards. With groundhog populations declining mainly because of me I was looking for more shooting opportunities. A lot of the farms I shoot have pigeons and now I found some with rat problems too. This fall is the first time I have shot rats at night with my Hatsan AT 44 10 with my ATN X-Sight and what a blast. So I decided to order an FX Verminator in .22 cal. which will easily get over 100 shots per fill and I won't have to be filling it in the pitch dark. It is compact and light and has many other great features too. It will also make a great small game rifle for squirrels and rabbits too. Now I still would like a higher power air rifle for shooting groundhogs out to say 50 yards or so that is why I am looking at the FX Wildcat. The characteristics of the Wildcat including quietness should make it well suited to shooting around barns and outbuilding with the proper backstop. As far as the Ataman rifle and its suitability all boils down to your needs and uses. Now I am mainly talking about the .22 and .25 calibers which have wider use rate. The 9mm is pretty specifically larger game. Like many people I have to travel pretty far to get my tanks filled. My whole point with the Ataman rifles it seemed with such a high fill pressure that is 4350 psi and only getting only 35 shots in .25 caliber you won't be shooting much before your main fill tank runs out of air. My 97 cu ft Great White is one of the largest tanks out there and you will probably be lucky to get a few fills off it. Now if all you are going to do with the Ataman is just hunt and take a few shots a day you will be fine. However if I spent all that money on a air rifle I would like to do some shooting. In that case be prepared to be making air runs. Bill
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I promise you will get a lot of fills from your great white, even with the Ataman. You won't be filling it to 300 bar, that is the max it is rated for. The Cricket is rated for 300 bar but people have reported the valve getting jammed at that pressure. I think you'll get over 30 fills at greater than 3000 psi easy.

If you live in a remote place, you could always rent one of those 6ft tanks for your garage. If getting air is an issue, it will be the same with any gun. I didn't check how big the Ataman cylinder is. If it's smaller than the Cricket and Wildcat that would also contribute to a lower shot count. Either way, if there is a need for greater air efficiency, maybe Ataman is not the way to go but we'll see when they arrive. PA specs have been known to be wrong on occasion.

I have never hunted groundhog so I don't know how much energy is needed to turn out their lights but a member on another forum regularly takes medium sized pigs with his 22 cal pcp rifle so you can get away with using less energy (if you're a good shot). 22 calls seem to use way less air than 25 cal. 

It it sounds like you already have a respectable collection of pcp rifles. As you're still looking, is it fair to say that you haven't found one that satisfies yet? I lost interest in searching the clasiffieds for pcp rifles for 3-4 months after getting my Cricket. I was just happy to shoot it. Then it developed an indexing issue that I have yet to solve so I started looking again. It only takes one small but annoying issue to change how I feel about a gun. I loved the Cricket but now it just makes me angry that a $1500 purchase has a problem after only a few months. Now I'm worried what it will be like after a year. 

Part of your self talk pre-purchase is that you always sell it if you need the money and they hold their value quite well so you don't want to worry about it being worthless after a short period...

I just spent a month making a carbon fiber stock for it or I might have switched it out already. It is still great to shoot though. It's accurate, quiet (ish), powerful, flat trajectory, efficient and it's balanced just right. I hate being conflicted. Why couldn't Kalibrgun have just used a little high carbon steel for their indexing pin.... Also, is it just me or does it seem like there is a letter missing from their name?...











 
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