Paypal quietly added the $2500.00 fine back in its policy - 2 weeks after the backlash

Paypal quietly added the $2500.00 fine back in its policy - 2 weeks after the backlash. But sneakily watered it down where they do not have to specify what they are unhappy about. Many people report that they were not able to cancel or close their accounts because Paypal was slow-roiling the response and outright ignoring it.


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This stinks so bad as they are such a convenience. Problem is that I’m sure buying and selling airGUNS is a violation of their acceptable use policy. At the very least I think we should all realize that it is futile to pay using goods and services for such transactions as there will be no protection. If you try to file a claim and they discover your violation it could end even worse than it started. Pretty sad.
 
While I certainly don't agree with a bunch of the things Paypal does, I hate disinformation articles from both "sides". If you look at the link that that author took his screen shots from I believe you will notice that the "Last updated date" is Sept of 2021. Over a year ago. So the $2500 fine is nothing new.
 
While I certainly don't agree with a bunch of the things Paypal does, I hate disinformation articles from both "sides". If you look at the link that that author took his screen shots from I believe you will notice that the "Last updated date" is Sept of 2021. Over a year ago. So the $2500 fine is nothing new.
Can you be more specific- I don’t see what you are referring to. Either way, whether it existed since 2021 or this month it’s good that people are waking up to the fact that this policy will allow PayPal to confiscate your funds at their discretion without any legal procedure. Something they would not be able to do legally in the first place because opinions are not legislated, only slander is.

-Marty
 
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Can you be more specific- I don’t see what you are referring to. Either way, whether it existed since 2021 or this month it’s good that people are waking up to the fact that this policy will allow PayPal to confiscate your funds at their discretion without any legal procedure. Something they would not be able to do legally in the first place because opinions are not legislated, only slander is.

-Marty
The screen shots he posted were from the below linked document. Note the date it was updated
 
The screen shots he posted were from the below linked document. Note the date it was updated
Thanks, according to Decrypt this policy has indeed been in place since 2021. Plus, their Acceptable Use policy also covers the “misinformation” clause by saying that PayPal users may not “provide false, inaccurate or misleading information” in connection to PayPal and (emphasis added) “third parties” since Feb 12, 2022.

I think it’s good for people to understand what they are getting into when using the service. Informed decisions are better decisions.

-Marty
 
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The issue here is not if Paypal has the right to assess the $2500 fees as a company, now or a year ago, but who is the arbitrator (decider)? Let's not confuse a clear-cut financial fraud transaction with transactions that may associated with speech/causes/businesses that Paypal may deem offensive. Is Paypal the "decider" on what is considered "intolerant"?

Donating via Paypal to an "unapproved" "extreme" political candidate will lead to a $2500 fine? Using what/whose standards? For example: oppose CDC standards as related to COVID will get you fined %2500? Supporting "Breitbart standards" vs "NYT standards" causes as related to social issues will get you a $2500 fine? Buying from the MyPillow guy will get you a $2500 fine?
 
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Folks seem to miss the part that the $2,500 penalty is assesed after the the Buyer initiates a claim against the Seller and provides compelling evidence that the Seller engaged in deceitful fraudulent activity. Paypal is only assesing the $2,500 to recoup investigaive costs. Sounds reasonable to me.
In cases of clear financial fraud...yes. There is an existing infrastructure/arbitration and accepted standards for such crimes. But Paypal wandered into social justice issues where no such accepted standards exists, except those established recently by certain Big Tech companies from pressure by political advocacy groups and the personal ideology of the leaders of such companies, such as Paypal.
 
The issue here is not if Paypal has the right to assess the $2500 fees as a company, now or a year ago, but who is the arbitrator (decider)? Let's not confuse a clear-cut financial fraud transaction with transactions that may associated with speech/causes/businesses that Paypal may deem offensive. Is Paypal the "decider" on what is considered "intolerant"?
The Buyer is the one who initiates the complaint, not Paypal. I cant imagine a situation where a buyer willingly contributes to a cause that they deem offensive, can you?
 
In cases of clear financial fraud...yes. There is an existing infrastructure/arbitration and accepted standards for such crimes. But Paypal wandered into social justice issues where no such accepted standards exists, except those established recently by certain Big Tech companies from pressure by political advocacy groups and the personal ideology of the leaders of such companies, such as Paypal.
The context of "Seller" and "Misinformation" is rooted in contract law, On another point, anyone can refuse to do business with a company that does not reflect their political views or values.
 
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A couple weeks ago when I first heard of the fines they wouldn't let me close my account. They said a week old transaction wasn't completed and give it a few days. Then I called back 4 days later and the phone menu asked if I wanted to close my account. Then they put me on hold for an hour and a half until they closed. A few days ago I finally got to speak to a person there and they informed me that the fine was an accident and it was dropped. I told them I didn't care and I wanted to close my account anyway. They finally closed my account and finished with a condescending see you soon. F THEM! and any other institutions that censor, use Social Credit Scores and the like for that matter.

Without getting too far into this but I will never again use PayPal, Chase and Facebook. I avoid Coke and Amazon when possible. I'm soon to close my Google account as well. Big tech and Big Businesses will only stop this stupidity when it hurts their bottom line. I'm not telling you where to spend your time and money. I'm saying don't complain about something and then support it financially because you're too cheap or lazy to stand by your values.
 
A couple weeks ago when I first heard of the fines they wouldn't let me close my account. They said a week old transaction wasn't completed and give it a few days. Then I called back 4 days later and the phone menu asked if I wanted to close my account. Then they put me on hold for an hour and a half until they closed. A few days ago I finally got to speak to a person there and they informed me that the fine was an accident and it was dropped. I told them I didn't care and I wanted to close my account anyway. They finally closed my account and finished with a condescending see you soon. F THEM! and any other institutions that censor, use Social Credit Scores and the like for that matter.

Without getting too far into this but I will never again use PayPal, Chase and Facebook. I avoid Coke and Amazon when possible. I'm soon to close my Google account as well. Big tech and Big Businesses will only stop this stupidity when it hurts their bottom line. I'm not telling you where to spend your time and money. I'm saying don't complain about something and then support it financially because you're too cheap or lazy to stand by your values.
Having issues closing mine as well.
Just says there's a dispute that needs to be handled but I have no open disputes
 
The context of "Seller" and "Misinformation" is rooted in contract law, On another point, anyone can refuse to do business with a company that does not reflect their political views or values.
I did not take a semester of contract law in a university (only had a provisional US GOV Contracting Officer warrant) but let me answer you anyway to clarify your misunderstanding:

The point I made is not that you as the Buyer can refuse to do business with a company that does not reflect your values...but that those values are not communicated and are not outlined clearly and specifically (unlike in the case of financial fraud). Thus "misinformation" , "intolerance", and other subjective terms can be applied ambiguously by Paypal as the sole arbitrator. So basically, Paypal is the judge, jury, and executioner all in one. This is different from financial fraud where clear case laws, etc exist/existed along with a legal infrastructure for complaints, investigations, trials, and punishment/award of damages.

As far as you other claim that the Buyer initiates a complaint in all cases. That is incorrect, and does not require an entire semester of law to be able to list some examples:

Buyer can donate/pay/contribute to a Seller (individual, organization, business, etc) cash in kind or in the form of purchasing products/services that are deemed offensive by Paypal or by outside third-parties, and Paypal can cancel (and consequently fine the Buyer $2500) without independent arbitration (and in some cases: without established clear standards). I will limit my examples to 5, in progressively less obvious violation of the laws or Paypal's own in-house (vague and purposefully) open-ended policy:

1. payment for child *********** (clear-cut public laws exist)
2. payment for KKK paraphernalia (not illegal to do so by public law, but Paypal may decide it is illegal)
3. payment of a donation/purchasing a product sold by an organization that supports a war on which US sanctions exist for one party but not for the other (example: you can donate to Ukraine-causes but not Russian)
4. payment to the Oath Keepers organization (Jan 6 riots) for legal fees, etc (when the organization has not been designated by the federal government as "terrorist, "extremist", etc but Paypal decides they are undesirable otherwise, but not listing them in the "User Agreement")
5. Fictitious scenario for illustration purposes only: payment for air guns or related products that becomes the central issue of one of the two major US political parties' campaign platform. Their cited reason: airguns can cause bodily harm and additional liabilities can be misused in an "armed insurrection". In this made-up scenario no actual federal laws exist against airguns (yet), but Paypal sides with the political party's campaign and starts leveling $2500 fines for aigun related purchases without actual evidence or past case laws that such danger exists. And does this without arbitration and due-process.
 
I did not take a semester of contract law in a university (only had a provisional US GOV Contracting Officer warrant) but let me answer you anyway to clarify your misunderstanding:

The point I made is not that you as the Buyer can refuse to do business with a company that does not reflect your values...but that those values are not communicated and are not outlined clearly and specifically (unlike in the case of financial fraud). Thus "misinformation" , "intolerance", and other subjective terms can be applied ambiguously by Paypal as the sole arbitrator. So basically, Paypal is the judge, jury, and executioner all in one. This is different from financial fraud where clear case laws, etc exist/existed along with a legal infrastructure for complaints, investigations, trials, and punishment/award of damages.

As far as you other claim that the Buyer initiates a complaint in all cases. That is incorrect, and does not require an entire semester of law to be able to list some examples:

Buyer can donate/pay/contribute to a Seller (individual, organization, business, etc) cash in kind or in the form of purchasing products/services that are deemed offensive by Paypal or by outside third-parties, and Paypal can cancel (and consequently fine the Buyer $2500) without independent arbitration (and in some cases: without established clear standards). I will limit my examples to 5, in progressively less obvious violation of the laws or Paypal's own in-house (vague and purposefully) open-ended policy:

1. payment for child *********** (clear-cut public laws exist)
2. payment for KKK paraphernalia (not illegal to do so by public law, but Paypal may decide it is illegal)
3. payment of a donation/purchasing a product sold by an organization that supports a war on which US sanctions exist for one party but not for the other (example: you can donate to Ukraine-causes but not Russian)
4. payment to the Oath Keepers organization (Jan 6 riots) for legal fees, etc (when the organization has not been designated by the federal government as "terrorist, "extremist", etc but Paypal decides they are undesirable otherwise, but not listing them in the "User Agreement")
5. Fictitious scenario for illustration purposes only: payment for air guns or related products that becomes the central issue of one of the two major US political parties' campaign platform. Their cited reason: airguns can cause bodily harm and additional liabilities can be misused in an "armed insurrection". In this made-up scenario no actual federal laws exist against airguns (yet), but Paypal sides with the political party's campaign and starts leveling $2500 fines for aigun related purchases without actual evidence or past case laws that such danger exists. And does this without arbitration and due-process.
Thanks. I thought posting the obviously broad language that still is in the ToS would be sufficient and didn't really feel like posting a bunch more about it. I don't think I'd have been this detailed anyways.

TLDR: PayPal still reserves the right to seize $2500 if they think you are naughty, including off plafform.
 
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They're trying to slow the bleeding with baloney claims so their stock doesn't completely Tank. Just another one of their dishonest practices. Just reinforces why people need to leave them.
Having issues closing mine as well.
Just says there's a dispute that needs to be handled but I have no open disputes
A couple weeks ago when I first heard of the fines they wouldn't let me close my account. They said a week old transaction wasn't completed and give it a few days. Then I called back 4 days later and the phone menu asked if I wanted to close my account. Then they put me on hold for an hour and a half until they closed. A few days ago I finally got to speak to a person there and they informed me that the fine was an accident and it was dropped. I told them I didn't care and I wanted to close my account anyway. They finally closed my account and finished with a condescending see you soon. F THEM! and any other institutions that censor, use Social Credit Scores and the like for that matter.

Without getting too far into this but I will never again use PayPal, Chase and Facebook. I avoid Coke and Amazon when possible. I'm soon to close my Google account as well. Big tech and Big Businesses will only stop this stupidity when it hurts their bottom line. I'm not telling you where to spend your time and money. I'm saying don't complain about something and then support it financially because you're too cheap or lazy to stand by your values.

Buddy of mine ran into a brick wall for a week while trying to close his account. He threatened to write a letter to his congressman, lol, and they closed the account immediately.

I worded my reason sort of snarkily --- "The retraction of the retraction of your harebrained ToS changes." and they closed mine immediately.

In his case the CX person started trying to argue and explain that the change had totally been an accident and the new language was totally cool!