PCP myths, truths and lies

[Neomorphy]

I don't know if I would compare an air rifle to a sniper rifle, though I do like to pretend it's a sniper rifle when there is a chipmunk in my sights  

I have never been able to group ten shoots together, but I try. Sometimes I know I twitched or maybe the wind picked up. I could make the trigger lighter, but then I'm worried I'll have an accident. Unregulated pcps aren't as consistent as regulated over a long enough string. There are a lot of elements that make it hard to prevent flyers and cheap guns are one of them. A three shot group can hide flyers.

Maybe I'll start sorting pellets and using a vise to prove it's possible then work from there.

 

[bandg]

If a cheap gun could consistently shoot as well as an expensive gun, everyone would buy the cheaper gun, maybe one of each caliber.

There's a big difference between a three shot group and a ten shot group. There's also a huge difference between 25 yards and 100 yards. If someone has a cheap gun that can send 10 pellets into the same hole at 100 yards, I want to see that video!

In law enforcement sniper training and military sniper training, 3 shot groups are used. Anything after 3 shots is most likely shooters error or pellets failure. Personally, I can concentrate great for 3 - 4 shots almost every time. If I throw a shot I am well aware when I make a mistake. I will admit that the high end guns make it easier to maintain your technique because they are designed better.

I think that illustrate the difference in training and "bragging" on the internet. If you shoot 3 shoot groups, 10 times in a row, there is a much higher probability that at least one of thouse groups will stand out from the rest. Meaning luck will have a big part of the game also. If a gun throves a flier every 4, or 5 shots (statistically) it is easy to hide that, by just picking a 3 shot group where it does not happen.

Cannot fully grasp the logic in this view although I do understand the concept. The gun (or pellet or shooter) doesn't known whether a flier will be the first or fourth shot. But a really bad flier is probably much more likely with an air gun.

Seems it really depends on a persons interest/needs. Hunters and pesters will probably be much more concerned with first shot accuracy than 10 shot group size. Bench competition shooters will probably be much more concerned with large shot count groups. Most of us will be somewhere in between.

 

[tor47]

If a cheap gun could consistently shoot as well as an expensive gun, everyone would buy the cheaper gun, maybe one of each caliber.

There's a big difference between a three shot group and a ten shot group. There's also a huge difference between 25 yards and 100 yards. If someone has a cheap gun that can send 10 pellets into the same hole at 100 yards, I want to see that video!

In law enforcement sniper training and military sniper training, 3 shot groups are used. Anything after 3 shots is most likely shooters error or pellets failure. Personally, I can concentrate great for 3 - 4 shots almost every time. If I throw a shot I am well aware when I make a mistake. I will admit that the high end guns make it easier to maintain your technique because they are designed better.

I think that illustrate the difference in training and "bragging" on the internet. If you shoot 3 shoot groups, 10 times in a row, there is a much higher probability that at least one of thouse groups will stand out from the rest. Meaning luck will have a big part of the game also. If a gun throves a flier every 4, or 5 shots (statistically) it is easy to hide that, by just picking a 3 shot group where it does not happen.

Cannot fully grasp the logic in this view although I do understand the concept. The gun (or pellet or shooter) doesn't known whether a flier will be the first or fourth shot. But a really bad flier is probably much more likely with an air gun.

Seems it really depends on a persons interest/needs. Hunters and pesters will probably be much more concerned with first shot accuracy than 10 shot group size. Bench competition shooters will probably be much more concerned with large shot count groups. Most of us will be somewhere in between.

What I meant is if the gun trows a flier 1 out of 5 shots, one can repeat the same 3 shot groups until the flier does not occur. Like say first group trows a flier on second shot, then second group trows a flier on first shot, then third group trows a flier on third shot, forth group trows a flier on second shot again. And then on fifth group there is no flier on any of the 3 shots. The fifth group will look much better than the previous group, but the gun still trows fliers, it just did not happen on the fifth group. It is just statistical randomnes in this case. Had the same shooter shot 5 shout groups, he had to shoot allot more groups before he got a good group without any fliers. A good ten shot group would be even harder, and maybe almost impossible if the gun (or shooter) was not consistent enough. The same will apply if the shooter most of the time is not capable of shooting 3 good shots in a row. He can then try again, and again, and until he manage to do it. A five or 10 shot group will demand much more from both shooter, and gun. A good ten shot group will probably look worse on paper than a 3 shot group, but even it having a wider center to center measurement might be much harder to achieve. 

I agree with you about the needs though. A hunter would probably care less, as long as he hit his target most of the time. But if the goal is to film and post good groups on internet, the guys setting up the camera on the range, doeas only have to post the few good 3 shot groups he made, and delete all the other bad one he made.

 

[SaHelo2MyLilFren]

Just simpler to say some enjoy deceiving through various methods including cherry picking groups. LOL That's why I use trusted reviewers like the AEAC channel, Air Velocity Sport, Hajimoto and others before making buying decisions. I would never base $$$ and performance decisions on random internet reports. 

 

[tor47]

Here is a litle trick one can use to make it easier to achieve good 3 or 5 shot groups:

Instead of aiming for the bullseye on the seccond shot, use the first shot as target instead. On a 3 shot group it doeas not matter if the first shot is a flier or a bad shot, as one only has to hit close to it with 2 more shots. If one use the same trick on a five shot group, one has to make 4 good shot. But if one throws in "I pulled that one" and disregard one shot, there only has to be 3 good shots out of 5 Most people do not care if the group is close to the bullseye on target, if the goal is to achieve good center to center measurement.

On a 10 shot group, tricks like that doeas not help much, as there has to be minimum 8 good shots. And a gun or shooter capable of doing that, is still very consistent.

 

[kkarmical]

Here is a litle trick one can use to make it easier to achieve good 3 or 5 shot groups:

Instead of aiming for the bullseye on the seccond shot, use the first shot as target instead. On a 3 shot group it doeas not matter if the first shot is a flier or a bad shot, as one only has to hit close to it with 2 more shots. If one use the same trick on a five shot group, one has to make 4 good shot. But if one throws in "I pulled that one" and disregard one shot, there only has to be 3 good shots out of 5 Most people do not care if the group is close to the bullseye on target, if the goal is to achieve good center to center measurement.

On a 10 shot group, tricks like that doeas not help much, as there has to be minimum 8 good shots. And a gun or shooter capable of doing that, is still very consistent.

I'd always thought the reason why you shot groups was was for consistency. If I am aiming bullseye and grouping left or right seems I need not adjust to the point of impact, but adjust the impact to the bullseye, and align shooters eye, crosshairs, bullseye, poi.

Adjusting aim to 1st impact seems like treating only a symptom not correcting a problem.

$.02

 

[bandg]

Seems apples to oranges in this conversation. Saying that most people aren't concerned with impact on target if they are measuring c-t-c for group size is possibly an accurate statement but only in view of the "if". I want my guns to shoot small groups. I also want them to shoot where I aim. People can focus on only one or the other or on both. I like both for mine.

 

[tor47]

Here is a litle trick one can use to make it easier to achieve good 3 or 5 shot groups:

Instead of aiming for the bullseye on the seccond shot, use the first shot as target instead. On a 3 shot group it doeas not matter if the first shot is a flier or a bad shot, as one only has to hit close to it with 2 more shots. If one use the same trick on a five shot group, one has to make 4 good shot. But if one throws in "I pulled that one" and disregard one shot, there only has to be 3 good shots out of 5 Most people do not care if the group is close to the bullseye on target, if the goal is to achieve good center to center measurement.

On a 10 shot group, tricks like that doeas not help much, as there has to be minimum 8 good shots. And a gun or shooter capable of doing that, is still very consistent.

I'd always thought the reason why you shot groups was was for consistency. If I am aiming bullseye and grouping left or right seems I need not adjust to the point of impact, but adjust the impact to the bullseye, and align shooters eye, crosshairs, bullseye, poi.

Adjusting aim to 1st impact seems like treating only a symptom not correcting a problem.

$.02

I wrote it more for fun. But if one think about it: If the gun is zeroed in at say 50 yards in a none windy condition, there should normaly be a patern of pellet holes around the bullseye. The size of that grouping is all depending on shooter and the accuracy of the gun. So if the first shot is not that good, like a litle low to the right, you will probably get a better group if you move the point of aim to the hole the first pellet made, as the 2 next shots will have a bigger chance landing closer to it.

I usually shoot paper targets which have several printed targets on one A4 paper sheet. When I have shot all the targets, I often shot a pellet on a empty space on the sheet, and try to hit that hole (to lazy to go and hang up a new target). If I shoot my wildcat which have a 8 shot mag, I am basically only making 7 aimed shots, as the first one is used to make the target hole. It probably doeas not matter that much when shooting 8 shots, but on a 3 or 5 shot group it will matter more.

 

[Neomorphy]

It does drive me crazy when the first shot is off to the side and then the rest group to the same spot. Is the scope not adjusted yet? My objective is to hit a Target with a good group. I never thought of a flyer then follow with a two shot group. I'm not saying that is happening, but after I fill out the bullseye, I'll make another target with a single shot followed by multiple shots.

Grouping is obviously very important, but from now on, when I see a three hole group to the side of an unblemished bullseye, it's a two shot group.