PCP myths, truths and lies

Interesting thread. Southern Airgunner says he can shoot his Gauntlet as accurately as his Daystate. However, he’s done a lot of work to get it to shoot like that. My stock Gauntlet shoots almost as well as my Veteran...but not quite.

That's truly interesting... I'm wondering how many Gauntlets we'll see at the RMAC in Utah in June, or at EBR in October? I'd love to see a Gauntlet win, but not holding my breath. ;)

No arguments that equipment matters in competitions, but the accuracy of the gun is not the most important thing in a lot of these contests. If that was the case, everybody shooting FXs, Daystates and RAWs would post similar scores to other shooters using the same guns, right? How about if someone shooting an Impact showed up and used a sandbag full of rocks and had a Walmart brand scope on the gun?
 
What does this have to do with the subject at hand?

IMO your statement is right (is the shooter) only in the same "accuracy gun" condition, otherwise will should see a lot of other brands on top places of the best competitions, benchrest and extreme BR (50-75-100y) is the ultimate accuracy test (more action less words...and of course lots of marketing ,,, so is important to read between the lines).


I don't think this is a true statement. The gun is only one aspect, some of the rests costs thousands of dollars, not to mention the scopes and rings. EBR is more a measure of how well a shooter can perform under adverse conditions such as windy and rainy conditions on a particular day. One of the most important factors in winning the competition is if the shooter can get a favorable lane and favorable shooting time. The best example of this is last years competition where Ted was 2nd in his heat but got a bad (windy) lane and fell all the way out of the competition. His equipment was great and he can shoot so the results had nothing to do with the gun itself. As far as the guns used, consider this, a lot of FX and Daystate shooters are sponsored by the company. A lot more people would compete if it was less costly to pay for travel, boarding, and equipment.

True, but I was not been that literal, just trying to separate shooter from gun (and all the components)

Benchrest Definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchrest_shooting extreme is just a fancy way to say it)
Regarding the line_ the line might not be neutral, but is not the most important. IMO. 

In PGA (Golf) all players have the best equipment possible, all players have great swings, but not all perform good, and just a few won (and donno top 200 pga players are millionaires just for playing good..damn! jaja) . Those who won are usually those that can read the right now conditions good and perform accordly (yes is the golfer, but having the best tools available for the job) Is a precision sport, same as benchrest shooting.

What I meant is: not everything is BLACK or WHITE, there are greys and shades of greys! is the shooter and is the gun and is the lane and is the weather and several other factors probably. Most of the opinions are correct for me, but when they are starting go south is when you try to isolate one factor. Back to the PGA, if you give to tiger woods a bad equipment, he will perform, but most likely will not win. Is just the way elite players work (and they can choose whatever they want) usually and specially with precision sports.



 
Good points. FYI - I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. My viewpoint comes from the fact that I have mid-grade PCPs and high-end PCPs and enjoy shooting them both. I will say that just about all of my Hatsan PCPs are modded and not "off-the-shelf" examples. But most of the mods are for either extended shot count or more power, they were already accurate.
 
Proof is in the puddin' boys. 3 shot groups at 50 and 75 yds. Bullseyes are 1" squares. 25 cal stock Gauntlet, Bushnell Sportview 4-12X40, shooting off a metal patio table with a rolled up jacket for a rest...so less than ideal to say the least. The left group is after sitting 5 days with a full tank...right group was fired a few minutes later. I like to test my working guns like this to see what I can expect in real world conditions on farm varmints. PS, This gun has a total of maybe 35-40 JSB 25.39's through it to date.

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A highly skilled shooter will out shoot a poorly trained shooter every time, but even a highly skilled shooter cannot make an inaccurate rifle look good. So no shooter can make a bad rifle look good...but he can make it look better than the bad shooter every time. Conversely, a highly accurate rifle can make even a novice shooter look better because it does not magnify their mistakes as much as a bad rifle does. But when you pit two highly skilled shooters behind two highly accurate rifles against each other, the winner can be determined by something as simple as the one having too many cups of coffee that morning...or who had an argument with his wife on the way out the door...or a thousand other little things. This is why you will never see though the winner of any competition winning it over and over on consecutive days.

I was at the 100 yard range one morning, and the guy next to me was shooting 3" groups at 50 yards with his .22 bolt action CZ rifle that I know will shoot better groups than that. He was amazed at the tiny one hole groups my Wildcat .25 was making at 50 yards and asked if he could shoot it. So the first thing I did was sit him down and help him adjust the ocular so the reticle was in clear focus...at first he didn't know why we were bothering with that because he had never heard of it before. :) So anyway, once I got him situated he sat there and shot several 3"-5" groups with my Wildcat... he said it was fun to shoot but not very accurate with the scope adjusted like that. It was all we could do not to laugh out loud! 

The moral? The guy next to me with a highly accurate CZ bolt action rifle couldn't out shoot me and my pellet gun on the best day of his life! So in my book it all boils down to the shooter! I could probably shoot better than him with a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.
 
Maybe basic math comes into play:

Good Shooter + Accurate gun = accurate shooting

Bad Shooter + inaccurate Gun = inaccurate shooting

Good shooter + Inaccurate Gun = Inaccurate shooting

Bad shooter + Accurate Gun = Inaccurate Shooting.

So, if the math is right, 3 of 4 combinations = inaccurate shooting, so best to have good shooter combined with good gun!
 
Maybe basic math comes into play:

Good Shooter + Accurate gun = accurate shooting

Bad Shooter + inaccurate Gun = inaccurate shooting

Good shooter + Inaccurate Gun = Inaccurate shooting

Bad shooter + Accurate Gun = Inaccurate Shooting.

So, if the math is right, 3 of 4 combinations = inaccurate shooting, so best to have good shooter combined with good gun!

I agree with this formula, ala positive + negative = a bad group. 
 
If a cheap gun could consistently shoot as well as an expensive gun, everyone would buy the cheaper gun, maybe one of each caliber.

There's a big difference between a three shot group and a ten shot group. There's also a huge difference between 25 yards and 100 yards. If someone has a cheap gun that can send 10 pellets into the same hole at 100 yards, I want to see that video!
 
If a cheap gun could consistently shoot as well as an expensive gun, everyone would buy the cheaper gun, maybe one of each caliber.

There's a big difference between a three shot group and a ten shot group. There's also a huge difference between 25 yards and 100 yards. If someone has a cheap gun that can send 10 pellets into the same hole at 100 yards, I want to see that video!

In law enforcement sniper training and military sniper training, 3 shot groups are used. Anything after 3 shots is most likely shooters error or pellets failure. Personally, I can concentrate great for 3 - 4 shots almost every time. If I throw a shot I am well aware when I make a mistake. I will admit that the high end guns make it easier to maintain your technique because they are designed better.
 
Biggest difference I see from real world experience is how fast the barrel fouls and trigger quality. As long as the regulator is consistent and you do your part to keep the bore in the condition the preferred pellet likes, most guns can shoot quite well with a good bench rest. Off the bench when barrel movement becomes a factor, the trigger quality becomes a significant issue.
 
My two cents.

Any, properly-tuned, regulated airgun with an LW (or similar quality) barrel and the correct ammo, will hold 1/2 inch, 100 yards groups, at an indoor range, using a machine rest. Anything else is less! That leaves three issues: The trigger, the scope, and the shooter. 

All too often, airgun triggers are about as good as a Sears, Stevens-made, .22 automatic, rim-fire rifle! In other words, darn lousy! There are a few out there, like the W.A.R. series with, thankfully, Timney triggers. FX's seem to be okay, as do several other exceptions. 

Most FT shooters don't mess around with cheap scopes. Neither do I, as I typically spend at least as much for the scope as I do for the airgun! Sometimes, a LOT more! Cheap is NOT the way to go. If nothing else matters, accurate repeatability of the turrets is an absolute must! I like Hawkes, but I like Leopolds better!

Ah the shooter! In my opinion, if you shoot less than 500 rounds per month, you're not going to win very many FT shootouts. Frequent hunting is important too, as it teaches you to shoot quickly. When you're in a firefight, so to speak, you need to learn to make almost instantaneous decisions of when to pull the trigger! In fact, the last FT I attended, the wind was gusty, from 5 to 15 MPH. That kind of shootout, quickly separates the men from the boys! 


 
If a cheap gun could consistently shoot as well as an expensive gun, everyone would buy the cheaper gun, maybe one of each caliber.

There's a big difference between a three shot group and a ten shot group. There's also a huge difference between 25 yards and 100 yards. If someone has a cheap gun that can send 10 pellets into the same hole at 100 yards, I want to see that video!

In law enforcement sniper training and military sniper training, 3 shot groups are used. Anything after 3 shots is most likely shooters error or pellets failure. Personally, I can concentrate great for 3 - 4 shots almost every time. If I throw a shot I am well aware when I make a mistake. I will admit that the high end guns make it easier to maintain your technique because they are designed better.

I think that illustrate the difference in training and "bragging" on the internet. If you shoot 3 shoot groups, 10 times in a row, there is a much higher probability that at least one of thouse groups will stand out from the rest. Meaning luck will have a big part of the game also. If a gun throves a flier every 4, or 5 shots (statistically) it is easy to hide that, by just picking a 3 shot group where it does not happen.