PCP myths, truths and lies

[shambozzie]

Great stuff guys. I always look for great bbls first then the total package. Like T3ranch said all my guns are accurate out to 50 yds. Pcp's: Fx tarantula .22, cricket compact 22, cz 200 .177. Talondor ss .25, springers : fwb 124d, fwb 300s, beeman r9 .177,rws 54 .22 cz634. Note all have outstanding bbls. All love jsb's. The shooter has to do his part.

 

[airgunfans]

This is just my experience. Cheap and expensive airguns do have substantial difference in accuracy. 

I have owned two springers : a Gamo CFX and an Air Arms Prosport. Both are .177 cal. The Gamo was very accurate at the beginning but the accuracy degraded after about a thousand shots no matter how I cleaned the barrel. The Prosport is still laser-like today. 

I have also got a plastic Alectol multip-pump pistol. The accuracy is quite hopeless until I replaced the barrel with a LW. This is not a fair comparison but my Walther LP400 10-meter match pistol consistently makes pellet-size group since day one.

 

[blackdiesel]

This is just my experience. Cheap and expensive airguns do have substantial difference in accuracy. 

I have owned two springers : a Gamo CFX and an Air Arms Prosport. Both are .177 cal. The Gamo was very accurate at the beginning but the accuracy degraded after about a thousand shots no matter how I cleaned the barrel. The Prosport is still laser-like today. 

I have also got a plastic Alectol multip-pump pistol. The accuracy is quite hopeless until I replaced the barrel with a LW. This is not a fair comparison but my Walther LP400 10-meter match pistol consistently makes pellet-size group since day one.

I didn't include springers because there is a big difference in accuracy with cheap and expensive springers. I had sworn off springers for a long time until I shot a nice German made Diana. Now I have 6 springers that can one hole pellets at 35 yards.

 

[Elbowgrease]

Well you cannot compare a CZ barrel to something that crossman puts into their marauders. Im not sure if I would even compare the the green mountain barrel they use in the .25. Now you could compare a CZ with an FX or Walther. I think that a good barrel influences the price of an airgun but thats just part of it. When you get into the quality of the build thats another major factor ( ill leave FX out of the quality part though ). If you look at other high end airguns next to one that is half the price or even one third of the price you simply cannot compare them. My M-rod has a ton of work done to it including a Marmot barrel and reg. The trigger has been worked on even. It is nowhere close to the same as my Vulcan for example. I mean not even close. Sure it shoots good but its not the same and shoots nowhere near the same. Now if I compare my Lelya to my M-rod both being in .22 and tuned well to add. The M-rod simply cannot hold its own against it even with a longer barrel then the Lelya. 

Now a good shooter is a good shooter and that will vary depending on individual to individual. But a quality airgun is just a better tool then a lesser one for a good shooter.

 

[blackdiesel]

Well you cannot compare a CZ barrel to something that crossman puts into their marauders. Im not sure if I would even compare the the green mountain barrel they use in the .25. Now you could compare a CZ with an FX or Walther. I think that a good barrel influences the price of an airgun but thats just part of it. When you get into the quality of the build thats another major factor ( ill leave FX out of the quality part though ). If you look at other high end airguns next to one that is half the price or even one third of the price you simply cannot compare them. My M-rod has a ton of work done to it including a Marmot barrel and reg. The trigger has been worked on even. It is nowhere close to the same as my Vulcan for example. I mean not even close. Sure it shoots good but its not the same and shoots nowhere near the same. Now if I compare my Lelya to my M-rod both being in .22 and tuned well to add. The M-rod simply cannot hold its own against it even with a longer barrel then the Lelya. 

Now a good shooter is a good shooter and that will vary depending on individual to individual. But a quality airgun is just a better tool then a lesser one for a good shooter.

I think pellets are the limiting factor more than barrels. My Gauntlet has a cheap Chinese barrel and it shoots 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards with Crosman dome pellets. I think you have to learn each gun and adjust to the gun and not try to make the gun adjust to you. At least that's what works for me.

 

[bubblerboy64]

I think the difference is in degrees. When I was shooting 22 silhouette most of us found that out to about 75 meters all the ammo and the guns did pretty well. When you got out to 100 m the expensive stuff seemed to show its merit. The cheap stuff might shoot 2 inches and the “good” stuff 1 inch.

So what we are asking is that small difference worth it. For most of us it’s not really , unless you think it is.

Certainly in the silhouette game it’s the shooter not the gun as much as we’d like to say otherwise. 

If you are hunting at long distances you need everything in your favor.

I like the car analogy. There are some pretty nice inexpensive cars and none of the high end stuff can be logically justified. Having said that I love the high end rides. Wish I had the $$ 

 

[Elbowgrease]

I think the difference is in degrees. When I was shooting 22 silhouette most of us found that out to about 75 meters all the ammo and the guns did pretty well. When you got out to 100 m the expensive stuff seemed to show its merit. The cheap stuff might shoot 2 inches and the “good” stuff 1 inch.

So what we are asking is that small difference worth it. For most of us it’s not really , unless you think it is.

Certainly in the silhouette game it’s the shooter not the gun as much as we’d like to say otherwise. 

If you are hunting at long distances you need everything in your favor.

I like the car analogy. There are some pretty nice inexpensive cars and none of the high end stuff can be logically justified. Having said that I love the high end rides. Wish I had the $$ 

1/2 inch group out of a cheep airgun is not bad but higher end airguns are more then capable of much better. There is a real difference between a cheep barrel and a good one that cost much more. Also there is the pellet factor. Some pellets just shoot better then others and even then some of the better brand of pellets have been known to have their issues as well. Like bent skirts.

 

[edosan]

@blackdiesel - there’s truth to that statement, I would only add that in my experience thus far this is true asserting the barrel lengths are within the same ballpark - IF the notion is that they all shoot the same at something like 100y. 

The other day edosan thought I was joking when I said his initial 150y slug groups out of his MK2 looked like my 18gr groups at 150 out of my Leshiy. Fact is, I have shot close to if not more than 15K pellets out of it, I know how (and when) it can shoot those groups, but it’s a “75y” gun in my book due to the shorter barrel.

I still do, with no wind or soft wind yes, you can group ... .. But you miss to your story a few important things, 150meters are 164yards, the part of 5 to 10 mph gusty and changing direction winds. A 18gn pellet @ 150 meters (164y) will just no group on gusty 10mph winds (meaning in 1 second change from 2mph to 10mph, and so on). Just watch the AirHunters video trying to group a 18gn pellet @ 100yards with wind. (is not about the gun, is about the ammo) Also was a Normal ImpactX (no mk2) with the pellet liner shooting slugs (is known that the pellet liner do not shoot slugs ok). Please do not change the story!

Yesterday 150m (164y) slug 30gn with 7mph cross wind...do that with your L.

ps: that was an mk2

 

[blackdiesel]

What does this have to do with the subject at hand? But a Sumatra 25 cal cost a little over $600 but generate over 100 fpe and can shoot slugs better than most of the new crop of high priced PCPs.

 

[khrome13]

This is exactly my frustration at the moment. Shooting a half dollar size group at 50 yards vs shooting a quarter size group at 50 yards is not worth an extra $500, $1,000 or more...

I want to know what to expect from the $500/$700 or less guns, find the top of the pile in that range and then decide which I prefer within those choices. However, my experience is 

a lot want to just push the $2k guns because that's either what they have or what they feel everyone needs. I would prefer to be able to split the PCP section into two groups. One for

guns $1000 retail and below and the other for everything above.

When I ask about purchasing a $500 gun, I don't really care to be told to save up for a $2k gun. I have many handguns, $300 to $1,100 but I will never own a $2k one. I can afford it

but just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[steve-l]

I cannot afford to own any gun that I do not have confidence in. I must know that when I miss it was me, not the gun. Price is irrelevant.

 

[FukoChan]

Yes and no here. You can strap a pcp airgun to a gun vise like i have to minimize human intervention. Play with all the elevation and windage on the vise till you are perfectly zeroed in and fire the gun for groups. What you get in those groups is the maximum potential of the gun. The barrels made for many airguns are not necessarily equal. The 1rst barrel made to the 100th will be vastly different if made through button rifling especially. You can imagine the wear on the tungsten button after 100 barrels. This is why it is a bit of a gamble buying some new pcps. Especially since (at least last time i checked) there is no group guarantee when buying a pcp. 

Which is why i somewhat think manufacturers like daystate and Fx(not sure if they do atm) should start having group guarantees at 50 or so yards. It will incentivize one gun manufacturer over another. People will start saying, “Oh i buy Y brand because they have a half inch guarantee at 50 yards.” Ive seen rifle manufacturers do it like savage where they guarantee one moa. Im somewhat confident that fx or daystate can put a half inch at 50 yards guarantee at this point in the game. They have both come so far. Well first one to the punch i guess.



Now all of this doesnt mean the shooter is NA in a target shooting situation. Pellets could be bad, it could be gusting outside and the shooter blames it on the gun, shooter could have the barrel laid down on the bag affecting harmonics, gun barrel could be lead fouled, and many other variables could affect the shot. So strapping the airgun on a gun vise only solves one problem. Although if you have cleared out all the mentioned variables then at least you can finally say its the gun not me.

 

[edosan]

What does this have to do with the subject at hand?

Donno really, correcting a few small omitions/mistakes on @mtnGhost post (now I have to read all..damn! jaja) but it might, group that with any other airgun at 164 yards, to see similar groups.

IMO your statement is right (is the shooter) only in the same "accuracy gun" condition, otherwise will should see a lot of other brands on top places of the best competitions, benchrest and extreme BR (50-75-100y) is the ultimate accuracy test (more action less words...and of course lots of marketing ,,, so is important to read between the lines). For hunting is a different story, but on "extreme accuracy, meaning submoa or 1/2 moa" the gun metters, is not only the shooter (You need submoa guns, and in the same condition the shooter make the difference true). Why Daystate, FX and RAW usually are in the top places? (easy answer but wrong IMO one is quantity, more shooters).

Is remarkable when we see other brands like kral in the top 10, but usually are heavily modified airguns.

Now for hunting, a broad spectrum ... you need 2 moa accuracy there even 3 to take your pray down and I totally agree with your initial statement... but hey, IMO only and IME only. 

in the precision world as close you are to precision, is more and more expensive (in any area) a simple example are watches, you can get a wrist watch for $10 bucks or there is the Atomic Clocks that cost ... donno a lot (several 100 thousand dollars?) the only difference is precision. But each clock satisfy different needs.The wrist watch is accurate, and the atomic one is precise 

 

[Dbez1]

Interesting thread. Southern Airgunner says he can shoot his Gauntlet as accurately as his Daystate. However, he’s done a lot of work to get it to shoot like that. My stock Gauntlet shoots almost as well as my Veteran...but not quite. Maybe I’m not good enough to make them shoot equally. As someone else noted above: for those of us that want that little edge on accuracy, the extra $ spent on out-of-the-box accuracy is worth it. I also agree that you pay for durability/reliability which is important to me. I shoot almost every day and one external element that drastically influences my accuracy is the wind. Last Saturday, it was dead calm and I was shooting the stems of dandelions at 60 yards. In 5-10 mph gusting winds, I can’t come near that accuracy. Again, I guess I’m just not good enough at doping the wind. So, I do believe much of it is the guy behind the gun. I have to agree with blackdiesel.

 

[jps2486]

I chuckle when I see these one-hole groups posted here. I've shot some of them myself, but to do it on a day-to-day basis regularly never seems to happen. Pellet variances, wind, my own psyche, etc all come into play. I agree that most rifles are accurate and capable of shooting the same size groups. I guess we are like fishermen and motorhome owners. We can brag (lie) about the size fish we caught or how good our gas mileage is.

 

[Centercut]

@jps2486, +1 to you. I chuckle also at the cherry picked groups... Like I always say, show me a photo of 5 or 6 groups shot in a row, 5 shots each consecutively if you want to show me your gun's accuracy. Also state whether the gun was clamped in a vise (shooting skill not required), or from a bag/bipod (shooting skill required). The cherry picked single groups are, like you say, only good for a chuckle... Not saying they're not interesting, or don't have a WOW factor, just that they are not representative of a gun, pellet/slug, or shooter...

 

[ackuric]

Many people shoot dozens of groups, but come to only post pictures of 1 or 2 groups in most cases...barrel quality, valve+hammer+trigger tuning, and shooter are the largest factors in determining consistent shot placement, not brand or model of gun.



-Matt

 

[tor47]

Maybe do as Ted Bier doeas in some of his videos: He shoot 10 shot groups instead of five. He says you can be lucky 5 times, but not 10

I see some shoot five shot groups, and get one flyer and the comment "I pulled that one", and then measure only four shots 

 

[Centercut]

Interesting thread. Southern Airgunner says he can shoot his Gauntlet as accurately as his Daystate. However, he’s done a lot of work to get it to shoot like that. My stock Gauntlet shoots almost as well as my Veteran...but not quite.

That's truly interesting... I'm wondering how many Gauntlets we'll see at the RMAC in Utah in June, or at EBR in October? I'd love to see a Gauntlet win, but not holding my breath.

 

[blackdiesel]

What does this have to do with the subject at hand?

IMO your statement is right (is the shooter) only in the same "accuracy gun" condition, otherwise will should see a lot of other brands on top places of the best competitions, benchrest and extreme BR (50-75-100y) is the ultimate accuracy test (more action less words...and of course lots of marketing ,,, so is important to read between the lines).

I don't think this is a true statement. The gun is only one aspect, some of the rests costs thousands of dollars, not to mention the scopes and rings. EBR is more a measure of how well a shooter can perform under adverse conditions such as windy and rainy conditions on a particular day. One of the most important factors in winning the competition is if the shooter can get a favorable lane and favorable shooting time. The best example of this is last years competition where Ted was 2nd in his heat but got a bad (windy) lane and fell all the way out of the competition. His equipment was great and he can shoot so the results had nothing to do with the gun itself. As far as the guns used, consider this, a lot of FX and Daystate shooters are sponsored by the company. A lot more people would compete if it was less costly to pay for travel, boarding, and equipment.