PCP questions.

[XhG76%o]

Good morning campers.

First of all I appreciate the information that people provide on so many forums as it helps to discern alternatives and options for many things that I play with. I come from the land of PEW PEW (.22 rimfire) as some call it . I have ten acres of land and shoot almost daily now that I'm retired and without a doubt the cost to punching holes in paper has become increasingly expensive over the years. I recently started looking at some of the rifles at Champions Choice as I was stock piling more ammuntion to feed my addiction and spotted the Walther LG400. It got me wondering if a more viable option might be to shoot some pellets or mix my love of paper punching with pellets and rimfires.

With that said I was unable to find definitive answers to several questions I had and hoped I could trouble some of you for your knowledge.

As stated in the beginning I have my eye on an LG400 in .177 caliber so if that makes a difference on the following questions.

On average how many shots do you get from a single charge? I understand cylinder size and pressure play a factor.
Is there a large difference in the quality of the pellets by brand? I noticed Champions Choice sold Eley and RWS which are both well known .22 rimfire ammuntion producers.
Do these rifles hold value over time like regular guns do or does technology advance so fast they become like the last iphone you purchased?
How accurate are these rifles at say 50 and 100 yards?
I've read several articles that mention trigger weights between 8oz and 4 pounds. Most of my current rifles are on the Remington 700 platform and the triggers I use are closer to the 4 oz range, is that possible with say the LG400?
How quiet are these rifles? I have multiple suppressors for .22s that bring my rimfires down to the 108db range out of a 20" or longer barrel.

The end goal is I like making single holes at 50 yards and want groups under .5 inches at 100 yards. Are these realistic asperations with a PCP rifle?

Thank you in advance for your time and input.

Max

 

[beerthief]

Good morning campers.

First of all I appreciate the information that people provide on so many forums as it helps to discern alternatives and options for many things that I play with. I come from the land of PEW PEW (.22 rimfire) as some call it . I have ten acres of land and shoot almost daily now that I'm retired and without a doubt the cost to punching holes in paper has become increasingly expensive over the years. I recently started looking at some of the rifles at Champions Choice as I was stock piling more ammuntion to feed my addiction and spotted the Walther LG400. It got me wondering if a more viable option might be to shoot some pellets or mix my love of paper punching with pellets and rimfires.

With that said I was unable to find definitive answers to several questions I had and hoped I could trouble some of you for your knowledge.

As stated in the beginning I have my eye on an LG400 in .177 caliber so if that makes a difference on the following questions.

On average how many shots do you get from a single charge? I understand cylinder size and pressure play a factor.
Is there a large difference in the quality of the pellets by brand? I noticed Champions Choice sold Eley and RWS which are both well known .22 rimfire ammuntion producers.
Do these rifles hold value over time like regular guns do or does technology advance so fast they become like the last iphone you purchased?
How accurate are these rifles at say 50 and 100 yards?
I've read several articles that mention trigger weights between 8oz and 4 pounds. Most of my current rifles are on the Remington 700 platform and the triggers I use are closer to the 4 oz range, is that possible with say the LG400?
How quiet are these rifles? I have multiple suppressors for .22s that bring my rimfires down to the 108db range out of a 20" or longer barrel.

The end goal is I like making single holes at 50 yards and want groups under .5 inches at 100 yards. Are these realistic asperations with a PCP rifle?

Thank you in advance for your time and input.

Max

First the pellets Champion sells are top notch and their info is spot on . Many Field Target shooters use the LG400 out to 55 yards , it is quite capable . I am not sure it can be tuned up in FPE ?
Yes the triggers on competition air rifles can be set very low , (my Morini is a few grams )
You might want to look at Rapid Air Weapons A more rugged and tunable gun
Many more here will answer , get ready to read a lot .
Welcome to the best AGN
Stan in Ky (I also shop at Champion Choice )
P.S. all my guns like RWS R-10

 

[Motorhead]

Good morning campers.


The end goal is I like making single holes at 50 yards and want groups under .5 inches at 100 yards. Are these realistic asperations with a PCP rifle?

Thank you in advance for your time and input.

Max

By in large ... THIS IS NOT REALISTIC.
Able to hold even MOA accuracy at 100 y is a quantum achievement very few ever pull off. While some have shared doing so, it did not happen for those few without a LOT of work on the Gun, barrels & pellet or slug being used while having near zero wind.

 

[Vana2]

The end goal is I like making single holes at 50 yards and want groups under .5 inches at 100 yards. Are these realistic asperations with a PCP rifle?

Thank you in advance for your time and input.

Max

Think your requirements and expectations are high - especially in .177 caliber.

Airguns are very accurate within their effective range but they are not as powerful as powder burners.

Cheers!

 

[Gerry52]

Pellet quality ABSOLUTELY can determine how well a PCP will shoot but then one has to get a feel for the idiosyncrasies of airguns. 2 guns of the exact make, model & caliber might not "like" the same pellets! Weird but true. # of shots depends on a # of variables such as speed gun is shooting, regulated or non, gun's tuning setup, weight of projectiles, altitude & temperatures, etc. There are airgun calculators in resources here that can give a general idea. Value depends on another set of variables & hard to answer specifically. This is, to a certain degree, a TRIAL & ERROR activity with a long learning curve but interesting & addictive as hell. The search bar here is your friend & taking the time to search, read & ask questions of the members will help a lot. Sorry this is probably vague & not very helpful but airguns are a very different animal from powder burners in so many ways. Good luck in your journey!

 

[XhG76%o]

By in large ... THIS IS NOT REALISTIC.
Able to hold even MOA accuracy at 100 y is a quantum achievement very few ever pull off. While some have shared doing so, it did not happen for those few without a LOT of work on the Gun, barrels & pellet or slug being used while having near zero wind.

Thank you, that is what I need to know. With my rimfires I shoot 50 and 100 yards at home but at the range I like putting holes in the center of the targets put up at 330 yards and then left after they miss them.

 

[beerthief]

By in large ... THIS IS NOT REALISTIC.
Able to hold even MOA accuracy at 100 y is a quantum achievement very few ever pull off. While some have shared doing so, it did not happen for those few without a LOT of work on the Gun, barrels & pellet or slug being used while having near zero wind.

Very "do-able " @ 50 yards scroll down to

Target Shooting Challenges​

 

[Motorhead]

Very "do-able " @ 50 yards scroll down to

Target Shooting Challenges​

Yea at 50 y it is doable, its the remaining 50 getting to 100 where we'll say the yarn ball starts falling apart

 

[JackHughs]

Considering your accuracy goals, the Walther LG400, or any .177 rifle for that matter will disappoint. Your best bet for a dedicated bench rest air rifle would be to have a conversation with Mike at Thomasair https://thomasrifles.com/. Thomas rifles are not inexpensive and the wait can be long, but Mike's goals in building rifles lines up with your goals in shooting them.

JackHughs

 

[drpietrzak]

My take is that unless you invest and tweak a lot you will not find this for .177.

Q1.) On average how many shots do you get from a single charge? I understand cylinder size and pressure play a factor.
A1.) It will vary greatly based on what you are using and doing. My Avenge-X in .177 will get perhaps 50+ shots before it drops off the regulator. This is in low power mode using 10.3 grain pellets running about 16fpe. However there is some variability in that range. I usually shoot about 30 in the optimum range and refill to stay consistent.

Q2.) Is there a large difference in the quality of the pellets by brand? I noticed Champions Choice sold Eley and RWS which are both well known .22 rimfire ammunition's producers.
A2.) I shoot .22 rimfire as well. Like with that area ammo is critical and varies greatly from one brand to another. Like rimfire most rifles will perform better with one brand and weight pellet than another. Like rimfire, lot numbers matter within that preferred ammo as well. For the levels of accuracy you are looking for I would say many would be sorting ammo as well.

Q3.) Do these rifles hold value over time like regular guns do or does technology advance so fast they become like the last iphone you purchased?
A3.) It depends, just like with rimfire and scopes. My Anschutz holds value differently than my CZ MTRs. The MTR's hold value differently than 75 year old Mossberg.

Q4.) How accurate are these rifles at say 50 and 100 yards?
A4.) Shooting my Avenge-X in .177 I expect just under 1 inch to .5 inch at 50 yards depending on conditions. I have a "spring" powered TX200 I expect about the same. I expect the Avenge -X to be about 2-3 inches at 100 yards with pellets depending on conditions. There are days it will shoot 1 inch but at 100 yards in .177 those are not most days. To beat that you will spend a lot of time and/or money to get there and in .177 may find it more difficult that you think at 100 yards.

Q5.) I've read several articles that mention trigger weights between 8oz and 4 pounds. Most of my current rifles are on the Remington 700 platform and the triggers I use are closer to the 4 oz range, is that possible with say the LG400?
A5.) I do not knw about the LG400. My TX200 is about 6 oz and my Avenge-X will not go lower than 8-10 oz.

Q6.) How quiet are these rifles? I have multiple suppressors for .22s that bring my rimfires down to the 108db range out of a 20" or longer barrel.
A6.) My avenge-X and TX200 both have some sort of internal baffling and shoot well under that range.

Q7.) The end goal is I like making single holes at 50 yards and want groups under .5 inches at 100 yards. Are these realistic asperations with a PCP rifle?
A7.) I see very few rimfire rifles doing 0.50 at 100 yards consistently. I do so periodically and can consistently get my Anschutz in the 0.60" to 0.80" range at 100. I can get it to 0.25" to 0.36" at 50 yards consistently. Unless you spend a lot, and tweak a lot you will not get better than this with rimfire. Only the luck of the gods or a lot of time and money will get you there with a .77 pellet rifle.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[XhG76%o]

Considering your accuracy goals, the Walther LG400, or any .177 rifle for that matter will disappoint. Your best bet for a dedicated bench rest air rifle would be to have a conversation with Mike at Thomasair https://thomasrifles.com/. Thomas rifles are not inexpensive and the wait can be long, but Mike's goals in building rifles lines up with your goals in shooting them.

JackHughs

Long waits and expensive sounds just like my Pew Pews. Lol

One of my Vudoo rifles with a Sightron S6 10-60x56.

 

[JimD]

That lg400 looks nice but it is a highly specialized tool for 10 meter competition I think. Shot count would be very high but it would not be close to your accuracy goals at 50 and 100 yards. Even 50 yards is a long ways for me and my airguns. They will certainly shoot that far but judging wind drift will be difficult. I enjoy shooting 30 yard challenge targets (big thread on this site). X is a dot, 10 ring is about 1/8th inch. It's challenging for me. I've shot a couple 200s but that is out of hundreds of attempts. There is a spreadsheet in the thread (you are likely to have to look at 5 pages or so to find one) that lists rifles, calibers and projectiles. Could give you some rifles to consider.

 

[dizzums]

not familiar with that one, but .5 at 100 with solid consistency - not really realistic for a pellet gun imo .. 50, yeah, most decent guns will do that, with the higher end ones being almost like lazers, pretty satisfying .. .177 is affected alot more by wind generally, even at 50 .. so id say as long as you dont expect too much, too far, pellet guns 'fill the void' + you can shoot at home .. noise level, well most are fairly quiet if theyre shrouded etc, but theres no masking a shooting session on a quiet morning with neighbors, theres just physical noise associated with shooting things thats pretty obvious .. 1) set up a place to shoot nobody can see 2) dont hit anything out of your yard 3) deny everything just be nice, what can they do lol

 

[drpietrzak]

Long waits and expensive sounds just like my Pew Pews. Lol

One of my Vudoo rifles with a Sightron S6 10-60x56.

View attachment 544370

So about $4000 for the rifle and $1800 for the scope. If you go to PCP in .22 cal. or higher, and spend that type of money you could be pretty close to your goal. You will probably be shooting slugs though and not pellets.

 

[XhG76%o]

not familiar with that one, but .5 at 100 with solid consistency - not really realistic for a pellet gun imo .. 50, yeah, most decent guns will do that, with the higher end ones being almost like lazers, pretty satisfying .. .177 is affected alot more by wind generally, even at 50 .. so id say as long as you dont expect too much, too far, pellet guns 'fill the void' + you can shoot at home .. noise level, well most are fairly quiet if theyre shrouded etc, but theres no masking a shooting session on a quiet morning with neighbors, theres just physical noise associated with shooting things thats pretty obvious .. 1) set up a place to shoot nobody can see 2) dont hit anything out of your yard 3) deny everything just be nice, what can they do lol

With .22s wind flags are a must. I live in the country, even though I have ten acres, behind me is open pasture. I just watch for cows but out of about 30,000 rounds last year I can’t remember a single round that didn’t land in my target boxes.

Ammunition for.22 s of high quality has gone up considerably and when you have a 100-300 round a day habit it becomes a demon to feed. Lapua center-x is now on average $190-$200 a brick (500 rounds) to my door. I thought I would explore less expensive alternatives to feed the beast. But 100 yards is a must and chasing accuracy becomes a nightmare in itself when you push the full range of a projectile. IMHO

I do thank everyone for the input and honesty. I can see it’s just another rabbit hole to get lost in.

 

[dgeesaman]

I have a Vudoo single shot br rifle, Anschutz 1907 prone rifle, and a couple of centerfire rifles that shoot one hole at 100y. Tuners, tunnel testing, hand pulled bullets, Lapua brass and match ammo, you know where that’s at. With my best lot matched ammo or handloads the one hole performance occasionally gets boring.

I have never achieved one hole anything airgun at 50y. At least not more than the odd occurrence. Wind is 5x more influential on airgun pellets than rimfire.

That Walther is a 10m match rifle that shoots at very low power. The Field Target model does 12 ft-lb (2x more) and will give up a lot at 50y to higher power airguns.

The only way to shoot small groups at 50 and 100 is with a very high power pcp and just the right slug and tune. Pellets just aren’t as consistent ballistically at those ranges. I’ve made some attempts to do this with my high power pellet PCPs and never got a consistently accurate combination. I will try again this year using an unchoked Benchmark barrel I have. And these airguns drink air and expensive slugs.

So the question is whether you’re set on 50 and 100y. If you can move the goalposts to 25 and 50 you can enjoy pellet shooting. You’ll come to appreciate one hole groups and good wind calls much more. There are guys I shoot with who did everything in firearms and have ignored all of it for 25-50y airgunning.

 

[XhG76%o]

So about $4000 for the rifle and $1800 for the scope. If you go to PCP in .22 cal. or higher, and spend that type of money you could be pretty close to your goal. You will probably be shooting slugs though and not pellets.

The gun isn’t the expensive part. Feeding the beast is the expensive part. This is the brass from 2024.

 

[XhG76%o]

I have a Vudoo single shot br rifle, Anschutz 1907 prone rifle, and a couple of centerfire rifles that shoot one hole at 100y. Tuners, tunnel testing, hand pulled bullets, Lapua brass and match ammo, you know where that’s at. With my best lot matched ammo or handloads the one hole performance occasionally gets boring.

I have never achieved one hole anything airgun at 50y. At least not more than the odd occurrence. Wind is 5x more influential on airgun pellets than rimfire.

That Walther is a 10m match rifle that shoots at very low power. The Field Target model does 12 ft-lb and will give up a lot to higher power airguns.

The only way to shoot small groups at 50 and 100 is with a high power pcp and just the right slug and tune. Pellets just aren’t as consistent ballistically at those ranges. I’ve made some attempts to do this with my high power pellet PCPs and never got a consistently accurate combination. I will try again this year using an unchoked Benchmark barrel I have. And these airguns drink air and expensive slugs.

So the question is whether you’re set on 50 and 100y. If you can move the goalposts to 25 and 50 you can enjoy pellet shooting. You’ll come to appreciate one hole groups and good wind calls much more. There are guys I shoot with who did everything in firearms and have ignored all of it for 25-50y airgunning.

Very nice. Yes I know what you have invested. I’m still not at the high consistency of single holes at 100 but I do shoot them occasionally. It’s the home range that is getting me. Honestly I shoot four or five times a week. I also have several Bergara’s including one of the 20” MTU profile models in and MDT chassis. I really like the trigger tech diamond triggers so it’s the first change every rifle gets.

 

[dgeesaman]

My Sako 6ppc does one hole at 100y and my Vudoo does one hole at 50y with no wind. The Vudoo can hold one inch at 100 in good conditions.

My higher power PCPs can do inch groups at about 80y but not consistently. I’m never sure if it’s the pellet, wind, or other things.

Shooting a good powerful pcp at 50y is similar to shooting a rimfire at 100 or a centerfire at 200-300. Or shooting one of those match 10m rifles at 20y.

 

[drpietrzak]

The gun isn’t the expensive part. Feeding the beast is the expensive part. This is the brass from 2024.

View attachment 544385

The $6000+ rig is not trivial. I shoot mostly Lapua Center X, Long Range and Midas+ so I agree the ammo cost, even if you can find them, is not inconsequential either. However, with your accuracy request you will probably need to be shooting slugs. The cost savings, particularly as your find the need to be .22 or higher, is going to dissipate pretty quickly. Quality slugs, particularly over .22, are increasingly spendy as well.