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Planning for Extreme FT - Looking for guidance on reasonable target difficulties

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shootermeb

shootermeb

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Jul 22, 2021
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Joppa, Maryland, United States
We are in the planning phase for setting up a small XFT Course at Palmyra Sportsmen's Association as an additional FT course segment someone can shoot. We have limited space where we can do this safely, so this will be on our 100yd rifle range. We will put out 10 targets, 2 shots per target, over 3 lanes. The first lane will have 4 targets, and the remaining two lanes - 3 targets. All targets will have a circular KZ. We will allow a 80fpe max power and pellets only (no slugs). There will be no extreme elevation targets on the course, so everything should be a reasonably straight shot into the KZ.

We are in the process of making/procuring targets and need some input on KZ sizing. Our targets will be capable of being used in the under 12fpe game, so having most KZs at a size that can be used for AAFTA will be nice.

I have reviewed the other forum posts regarding a Troyer calculation for difficulty in XFT, and I am starting with the following beliefs or questions. Please provide input on your own experiences.

  • The max reasonable Troyer Difficulty for a target should be 60T (without environmental modifiers). In comparison, AAFTA lists a max of 50T for a target. My belief is XFT is an "easier" ask than what the AAFTA rules allow in hunter class, so the difficulty expectation can be raised. Noting the reasons for easier: known distances, unlimited scope and sight adjustment, rested gun (shooting sticks), more power - less wind deflection.
  • What is the smallest, reasonable sized KZ at key distances? 100 yds, 80yds, 60yds, 50yds, or any other split where it may be more difficult for some reason. My belief is, we can use 1/2 inch KZs but probably should be under 20-ish yds, and 3/4 inch KZ might be reasonable out to 35-40ish yds. I don't have a good gauge to claim a smallest reasonable KZ size to use at longer yardages. What's the longest range you'd use a 1.5 inch KZ?
  • What should the average XFT Troyer difficulty be for a course? What might be considered the line between moderate and hard difficulty? For AAFTA, 30T is the moderate-hard course difficulty cut. Should this be like 35-ish for XFT?
  • Can we assign groupings of individual target difficulty? AAFTA Troyer is easy <20T; moderate 20-30T; hard 30-40T; expert 40-50T. Maybe XFT's ranges are simply shifted up like 5 points, and anything greater than 45T is considered expert?
We want to create a course with a variety of targets from easy to challenging difficulty covering distances from 15yds to 100yds. We really need guidance defining what is reasonable and what is not possible with the common kit used in a shooter's XFT shooting system. My limited experience is with a .25 cal FX Crown shooting at a KYL target at 50yds. I know it is really difficult to place a shot on the 1/4 inch target at that distance, which translates to a 3/4 inch KZ (reasonably sighted in, using bucket and sticks.) 3/4 inch KZ at 50yds is probably beyond reasonable expectation (for reference, this would be a 66.6T difficulty).
 
I've done the match reports and analytics of all of the XFT @ PRGC matches here in Phoenix. I think that's somewhere up around 25 matches now.

This is probably the chart you've seen, blue and yellow table in the link...

Extreme Troyer Factor

(Full credit goes to Brad Troyer on all of this. And thanks to CTAC for this particular image) I really enjoy analyzing the numbers for sub 20fpe field target matches, and that typically entails using Brad's chart. A few days ago I realized how cool it would be to extend this out, in both...
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com

Nothing fancy there, it's just the same kill zone divided by distance that the sub 20fpe field target Troyer uses, at least for 25-50 yards. I extrapolated it out to 100 yards though, and also applied an additional difficulty factor for targets from 51-75 yards, and a slightly higher difficulty factor for targets from 76-100 yards.

The closest we set them in Phoenix is 25 yards, furthest is 100 yards. (Although, @ EBR, the extreme field target portion had a 106 yard target, I suspect that caused some anxiety for folks whose dope sheet stopped at 100). Closer than 25 yards and at the 80fpe you are considering, your targets will get the stuffing beat out of them.

We've found that an average Troyer of 30-34 seems about right, the closer you are to 30 the higher the winner's knockdown percentage will be. And "by about right" I'm meaning newbies will knock enough down to have fun, while seasoned XFT shooters will still find it a challenge.

If you do an average T of 35 or more, it will be hard on the psyche of some of your shooters, specifically those that get frustrated easily. Because of the greater distance involved, a T of 35 in extreme ft is a much harder course than a T of 35 in regular sub 20fpe/<55 yards field target. Especially because (as was mentioned yesterday in discussion here on AGN), there are other contributing factors, wind for example, that can make it MUCH tougher than that 35 suggests.

Our highest Troyer targets are usually 3 inchers @ 100 yards, an Extreme Troyer of 41.7. We typically have 4 of those shots, and it is VERY rare for anybody (even the winner of the match) to score 4/4 on those targets. We've occasionally had even higher Ts, and had them knocked down only a couple times during the match, with 10-15 shooters each taking a whack a them twice.

I suggest not going harder than a T of 45 on any target that's past 65 or 70 yards.
 
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Franklink said:
I've done the match reports and analytics of all of the XFT @ PRGC matches here in Phoenix. I think that's somewhere up around 25 matches now.

This is probably the chart you've seen, blue and yellow table in the link...

Extreme Troyer Factor

(Full credit goes to Brad Troyer on all of this. And thanks to CTAC for this particular image) I really enjoy analyzing the numbers for sub 20fpe field target matches, and that typically entails using Brad's chart. A few days ago I realized how cool it would be to extend this out, in both...
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com

Nothing fancy there, it's just the same kill zone divided by distance that the sub 20fpe field target Troyer uses, at least for 25-50 yards. I extrapolated it out to 100 yards though, and also applied an additional difficulty factor for targets from 51-75 yards, and a slightly higher difficulty factor for targets from 76-100 yards.

The closest we set them in Phoenix is 25 yards, furthest is 100 yards. (Although, @ EBR, the extreme field target portion had a 106 yard target, I suspect that caused some anxiety for folks whose dope sheet stopped at 100). Closer than 25 yards and at the 80fpe you are considering, your targets will get the stuffing beat out of them.

We've found that an average Troyer of 30-34 seems about right, the closer you are to 30 the higher the winner's knockdown percentage will be. And "by about right" I'm meaning newbies will knock enough down to have fun, while seasoned XFT shooters will still find it a challenge.

If you do an average T of 35 or more, it will be hard on the psyche of some of your shooters, specifically those that get frustrated easily. Because of the greater distance involved, a T of 35 in extreme ft is a much harder course than a T of 35 in regular sub 20fpe/<55 yards field target. Especially because (as was mentioned yesterday in discussion here on AGN), there are other contributing factors, wind for example, that can make it MUCH tougher than that 35 suggests.

Our highest Troyer targets are usually 3 inchers @ 100 yards, an Extreme Troyer of 41.7. We typically have 4 of those shots, and it is VERY rare for anybody (even the winner of the match) to score 4/4 on those targets. We've occasionally had even higher Ts, and had them knocked down only a couple times during the match, with 10-15 shooters each taking a whack a them twice.

I suggest not going harder than a T of 45 on any target that's past 65 or 70 yards.
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This XFT really sounds like fun. I'm in the process of setting up a .22cal for XFT which will hopefully be ready early next year. My son lives in Arizona so I'm hoping to visit him and sneak in a match at the same time. I apologize in advance if I drool on your Ghost :p
 
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Green_Yamo said:
This XFT really sounds like fun. I'm in the process of setting up a .22cal for XFT which will hopefully be ready early next year. My son lives in Arizona so I'm hoping to visit him and sneak in a match at the same time. I apologize in advance if I drool on your Ghost :p
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It really is a blast. Hope to see you at some matches. Starting in Jan they'll be daytime matches on the 4th Saturday of each month and that should be Jan through April or maybe May, gets too hot after that.

And Ghost will probably be present for you to take it for a spin if you'd like.
 
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For the Extreme Troyer calc, the link Franklink referenced is what I used to prepare my calculations. So, we are talking the same thing when referencing an Extreme Troyer number.

I am not sure how well our targets will survive the 80fpe at close range, I haven't given it much thought being under the assumption other places allowing 100fpe and 22LR the targets could withstand shots at 15yds with those energies. Our primary reason for the lower fpe and use of pellets is the potential for missed shots to skip off the range floor and go somewhere they shouldn't. Our face plates for the smaller KZ targets are 1/4inch AR400, so I am not concerned about the face getting beat up, but the KZ mechanism behind the plate is a more fragile area. I can consider limiting the max fpe to protect the target mechanisms. Would it be reasonable to lower our rule on the fpe max? I figured 80fpe should allow most 30cals. What would be a reasonable low end fpe cutoff for 30 cals to remain a viable option?

Good suggestion to keep the 70+ yardage targets around a max 45T. Looking at this same suggestion from a different direction, a 1.5inch KZ is reasonable around 60yds, difficult yet possible at 65yds, and probably not viable beyond 70.

Course average around 30-34T, I assume this is where we can claim the moderate/hard course difficulty separation to be, so anything higher than 34T avg can be considered hard. And, maybe anything less than a 28T course average to be easy.

3 inchers for 100yds, got it.
 
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Solo1 said:
I’ve never shot a xft match but so long as yours aren’t on the same day as binghamptons im in !!!
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It will be the same day as our regular FT events, which is typically the Sunday on the same weekend as Binghamton. Our schedule is a little more scrambled this year, so check our website for our 2023 FT dates. When we get XFT up and running, it will be as if it were another course loop available to shoot. Stay tuned. https://www.palmyrasportsmens.com/Field-Target

I don't know when we will start doing XFT in 2023, it depends on when we finish building our targets. I know we will not be doing XFT in the month of August, because that will be AAFTA only.
 
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If you need targets that will hold up to 108fpe even at 25 yds contact Nofilters or me as we make and use them in our Phoenix matches. They set up with ease and will withstand subsonic 22 rimfire.
We have used ours for over 2 years and have had no target failures.

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0D961C8B-1BE6-4D3B-A184-1649A45F05D5.jpeg
 
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SDstephan said:
Mike - do you expect to use XFT rules about buckets/bum bags and sticks and 25x max magnification?
thanks
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I expect to stay as true to other rules that have been in place at other places. Generally, that seems to be stools/buckets with sticks. We'd also keep any magnification limits that are common. I think our major differences in rule interpretations are pellets only, max 80 fpe.

I am open to suggestions if we should interpret our rules differently than other places. Like if someone wanted to shoot from sitting on a bum bag with sticks, I don't see a problem with allowing it, but seems the common XFT rulesets may not allow it. I'd also be willing to accept something like "whatever hunter AAFTA allows, but with higher scope magnification". I also know that we will not be allowing supportive equipment, like shooting coats. And, no over/underhook butt plates, etc... generally, the gun has to be a legal shape as if shooting hunter AAFTA.

If you are a current PSA FT shooter, or you think you will be shooting XFT at our club, what rules do you think we should use? How should they be the same or differ?
 
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As I enjoy the ability to use separate guns for the XFT portion, I am somewhat free on 'rules' but do feel that the more common they are with other venues the better. I am all in for max 25x magnification, bum bag with both soles planted or stools / buckets, sticks and max 80 fpe to minimize ricochets (no matter how cool the sound on that range)
 
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SDstephan said:
As I enjoy the ability to use separate guns for the XFT portion, I am somewhat free on 'rules' but do feel that the more common they are with other venues the better. I am all in for max 25x magnification, bum bag with both soles planted or stools / buckets, sticks and max 80 fpe to minimize ricochets (no matter how cool the sound on that range)
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What is your source for the max 25x magnification rule. I have found this ruleset https://extremebenchrest.com/american-field-target-rules/, and it caps at 32x, but nothing about buckets and feet on the ground. But, I know I have seen the "bucket and feet on ground" rule somewhere. I am looking for it documented on a website other than this forum.
 
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shootermeb said:
What is your source for the max 25x magnification rule. I have found this ruleset https://extremebenchrest.com/american-field-target-rules/, and it caps at 32x, but nothing about buckets and feet on the ground. But, I know I have seen the "bucket and feet on ground" rule somewhere. I am looking for it documented on a website other than this forum.
Click to expand...
The history there is that when Ben Spencer made the ground breaking decision for extreme field target to be more than just a once a year thing at EBR (ie. when he turned it into a monthly event here in Phoenix and the growth subsequently EXPLODED across the country after folks saw how much fun we were/are having) he chose a 25x scope limit to try to make it a game people could play with less expensive scopes. Since there's no ranging by focus like in regular field target, really high dollar, high magnification scopes simply aren't necessary. I've finished in the top couple places at multiple monthly matches using a 20x SWFA.
 
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EBR EFT rules are the same as the EFT GP series rules... XFT at Phoenix Rod and Gun are slightly different with the 25x max scope, pellets or slugs or subsonic rimfire, and soles of feet touching ground while shooting. Most places follow the EBR EFT type rules where its 32X, 100 FPE max, pellets only, and you can sit however you want, as long as the bipod isn't physically attached to the gun and your seat doesn't have arms or a back rest.

Generally, in a nutshell:

• 100 FPE limit [or whatever limit is set by the club]

• Forced position lanes (if used) will be standing with bipod for all GP events. Note: Forced position lanes are not required for EFT GP events, since this is NOT designed as a "high power AAFTA" event.

• Leagues/clubs are encouraged to allow ANY shooting position in OPEN lanes. However, match directors should discourage prone or pretzel (low) position shooting by using obstructions or other methods. Individual clubs may set their own rules for shooting position but should encourage “bucket and sticks” as much as possible.

• Extreme Field Target is not designed to be a higher power version of AAFTA Field Target! Be advised that Match Directors are intending to make it more like real hunting where you may or may not be able to see the target with the standard 15" line of sight to the target. Have fun and be ready for anything!

• Leagues/clubs will allow unattached bipods and shooting sticks. NOTE: HOG SADDLES (such as the BOG Deathgrip) longer than 2 inches are not allowed, and bipods must be limited to 2 inches from front to back. Examples of allowed bipods are: Primos Trigger Stick or Vanguard Scout. Similar others are at the MD’s discretion

• Time limits for stages and/or lanes should be enforced. Recommended time is 1 minute set up, and 30 seconds per shot. For example, for an 8 shot lane, the time would be 1 + (8 x 30 seconds) = 5 minutes.

• No tripods

• No rear rests may be used

• Pellets only (no bullets/slugs)

• Scope magnification maximum of 32x (your scope CAN have a higher magnification, but the power used must be 32x or less). Clubs may set their own maximum scope magnification.

• Scoring will be done by league/club staff [or by assigned squad shooters].

• A single seat may be used, i.e., bucket, chair, stool, bum bag, or cushion.

• No chairs with backs or arm rests are allowed.

• No shooting jackets, harnesses, slings, etc. are allowed.
 
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Centercut said:
EBR EFT rules are the same as the EFT GP series rules... XFT at Phoenix Rod and Gun are slightly different with the 25x max scope, pellets or slugs or subsonic rimfire, and soles of feet touching ground while shooting. Most places follow the EBR EFT type rules where its 32X, 100 FPE max, pellets only, and you can sit however you want, as long as the bipod isn't physically attached to the gun and your seat doesn't have arms or a back rest.

Generally, in a nutshell:

• 100 FPE limit [or whatever limit is set by the club]

• Forced position lanes (if used) will be standing with bipod for all GP events. Note: Forced position lanes are not required for EFT GP events, since this is NOT designed as a "high power AAFTA" event.

• Leagues/clubs are encouraged to allow ANY shooting position in OPEN lanes. However, match directors should discourage prone or pretzel (low) position shooting by using obstructions or other methods. Individual clubs may set their own rules for shooting position but should encourage “bucket and sticks” as much as possible.

• Extreme Field Target is not designed to be a higher power version of AAFTA Field Target! Be advised that Match Directors are intending to make it more like real hunting where you may or may not be able to see the target with the standard 15" line of sight to the target. Have fun and be ready for anything!

• Leagues/clubs will allow unattached bipods and shooting sticks. NOTE: HOG SADDLES (such as the BOG Deathgrip) longer than 2 inches are not allowed, and bipods must be limited to 2 inches from front to back. Examples of allowed bipods are: Primos Trigger Stick or Vanguard Scout. Similar others are at the MD’s discretion

• Time limits for stages and/or lanes should be enforced. Recommended time is 1 minute set up, and 30 seconds per shot. For example, for an 8 shot lane, the time would be 1 + (8 x 30 seconds) = 5 minutes.

• No tripods

• No rear rests may be used

• Pellets only (no bullets/slugs)

• Scope magnification maximum of 32x (your scope CAN have a higher magnification, but the power used must be 32x or less). Clubs may set their own maximum scope magnification.

• Scoring will be done by league/club staff [or by assigned squad shooters].

• A single seat may be used, i.e., bucket, chair, stool, bum bag, or cushion.

• No chairs with backs or arm rests are allowed.

• No shooting jackets, harnesses, slings, etc. are allowed.
Click to expand...
Mike: Does “soles of feet must be touching the ground” exclude shooting prone?

Podna
 
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