PP-700

[steve-l]

In my experience the PP700-SA is a great replica of the Thompson Contender and that is why I bought mine. . . . . . twice, but these are true crap out of the box. You are buying a $250 gun. There are no free lunches and these are a perfect example of that. The open sights are waaaay off and simply useless. There is no vertical adjustment. Both of my pistols leaked like a sieve. Only one had a regulator that did not leak. However, after countless hours of work, they shoot very well and accurate. I bought a pistol and I shoot it like a pistol. Its purpose for me is pesting and pistol practice. Using a shoulder stock or a telescoptic sight has no place on a pistol in my opinion. They take away the ability for rapid deployment and rapid target acquisition. I have tried many different sights and because of the loopy trajectory at 650 fps, target holdover is required at anything beyond 25 meters, the reflex sight and a scope allow target visibility below the aim point, but a scope kills peripheral vision. In my opinion you do NOT want any magnification, as it hurts the instantaneous requirement of distance guessing. and required holdover. I also bought a See-All sight and after receiving it, I kept it in the box........useless. It has the same limitation as a the fixed sight, target blind holdover and even worse, a very short sight plane making the sight insensitive to sighting error. The only issue a reflex sight has is its sight line above the barrel. I adjust my reflex sight zero at 20 meters, but this requires holdunder below that for shorter distances and I find judging the amount of holdunder at those short distances difficult to judge when shooting at a mouse. To solve that problem, I mounted a laser sight in the V ways machined in the PP700 shroud sides. This allowed the laser beam to be offset by only a 1/2".and easy to compensate for. I adjusted the laser beam to be dead parallel to the barrel line. I also use a KOI moderator that works well and interestingly it does not interfere with the laser. I really enjoy shooting this pistol. It has just the right amount of nose heavy balance that makes trigger error less influential. I have successfully hit crows and pigeons at 110 meters and when I miss I will still get their undivided attention.

 

[MikeVV]

steve-I wrote -

"...even worse, a very short sight plane making the sight insensitive to sighting error."

Steve, this is your problem, not the sights ! I have a couple of these sights, they work well for their intended purpose. They have exactly the same "error" as you call it, as any other sighting system available.

I'll find my own thoughts on the PP700s-a, next week, after mine gets here.

Mike

 

[steve-l]

Mike,

I wish you luck with your new pistol. On the subject of see-all sights, I am very happy you are happy, Every competitive pistol shooter I know is aware of the advantage of a longer sight plane and the disadvantage of short sight planes. Do your own research. It is a bad idea to bet against physics.

 

[steve-l]

After sending my last comment to Mike, I was shooting the PP700SA and it started leaking again. I just finished taking it apart and changing 6 "O" rings The main culprit was the tank filling check valve "O" ring, but I changed a few more while I was there. The cause of the failure was a poor quality "O" ring, but part of the problem was the black anodizing on the valve seat had flaked off damaging the "O" ring. The other "O" rings I changed had compressed to the point of no return and were oval in shape. The quality of this gun's "O" rings is the source of most of the failures I have encountered.. One other observation is that none of the European "O" rings that I have changed has failed, only the OEM ones. I now have bags of everyone used in the gun on the shelf.

The Edit:

However, more of a concern is the flaking anodizing. The cause is poor or insufficient cleaning before anodizing. Depending on where the flaking occurs, it could be more severe than being just cosmetic as it was in this recent case. This is, after all, a $250 gun and if you get a good one, your lucky.

 

[stubshaft]

I ordered a PP700sa from Wes in Canada. Should be here Friday or Monday.



Mike

Dang that is fast. I ordered one from him also on 12/3, and it shows expected delivery on December 20th.

 

[MikeVV]

Not...so...fast !

Finally got it today. I put a Sig Sauer, red dot sight on it. Will do some sighting-in tomorrow.

I put one quick round through it this afternoon. It's actually pretty quiet. I'll have to check to see what the pellet velocity is. Even though I bought the suppressor adapter, I like it being so quiet. It must be shooting fairly slowly. Doesn't really matter, I'm just shooting paper at just over 10m.

stub -

One reason it takes so long, is that Wes tunes Canadian guns to shoot US speeds. So he has to take it apart do adjust the regulator and then possibly the hammer spring load. I told him I didn't need to to shoot 700fps, that 550 or so was fine. Again, I'll check the speed tomorrow.

Mike

 

[MikeVV]

Couldn't wait...

I dialed in the sight and checked the speed - 592 to 602 (just a four shot string). Almost the same f.p.s. as my Kalibrgun Ocelot.

I understood that these guns are loud. Even at shooting at roughly 600fps, it's very quiet, without an add-on suppressor. And at about the same speed, it's MUCH quieter than my Ocelot !?

Mike

P.s. - Comfortable, easy to shoot, nicely weighted, even with the long barrel. The trigger is plenty light, the first stage is nice and light but it is a bit gritty during the second stage let-off. I'll lighten the second stage and see what happens (can I ?), then if it's still gritty, I've seen "how too's" in YouTube about the smoothing of the trigger assembly.

 

[MikeVV]

Well, it didn't take any polishing. Just give the sear engagement a little adjusting, a little oil here and there, and all is now smooth, with a clean and quick let-off.

Mike

 

[UncleHoot]

Mike, that second picture down, showing a 5 shot group at 2,040 feet is absolutely amazing!!! Shooting those scorpions has really upped your game!!!



Regards,

Uncle Hoot

 

[JungleShooter]

Used for scorpion hunting at night. First summer 1837 killed. This year, not so many with a total of 730. [...]

For such a low cost gun, it out preforms many high dollar guns. GRRRRRR!!!

Knife

//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3E

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//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3EMy hand cast segmented vermin Slug. Opens easily at 500 fps. Here, 560 fps from the PP-700 in water jug at 50 yards Expanded to .454". 

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Knife,

congrats on your PP700 exploits!

Very nice grip & amp.



Your scorpion killing spree leaves me speechless. Just. Plain. Awesome.

(Please, do make a little video for us some time.)



Your hyper-expanding hollowpoints are SO GOOD — ever time I read about them or see the results my resolve grows — my resolve to try and convince my wife that I NEED to buy a contraption to make something like Knife's hyper-expanding HPs.

Yesterday I just got my first two birds with slugs through the PP700 (NSA 17.5gr at 44y). But I really want [need!] explanding slugs at 15FPE (ME).

Matthias

 

[JungleShooter]

Used for scorpion hunting at night. First summer 1837 killed. This year, not so many with a total of 730. [...]

For such a low cost gun, it out preforms many high dollar guns. GRRRRRR!!!

Knife

//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3E

//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3E

//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3E

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//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3E

//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3EMy hand cast segmented vermin Slug. Opens easily at 500 fps. Here, 560 fps from the PP-700 in water jug at 50 yards Expanded to .454". 

//www.w3.org/2000/svg%22%20viewBox=%220%200%20210%20140%22%3E%3C/svg%3E

Knife,

congrats on your PP700 exploits!

Very nice grip & amp.



Your scorpion killing spree leaves me speechless. Just. Plain. Awesome.

(Please, do make a little video for us some time.)



Your hyper-expanding hollowpoints are SO GOOD — ever time I read about them or see the results my resolve grows — my resolve to try and convince my wife that I NEED to buy a contraption to make something like Knife's hyper-expanding HPs.

Yesterday I just got my first two birds with slugs through the PP700 (NSA 17.5gr at 44y). But I really want [need!] expanding slugs at 15FPE (ME).

Matthias

 

[JungleShooter]

Using a shoulder stock or a telescoptic sight has no place on a pistol in my opinion. They take away the ability for rapid deployment and rapid target acquisition.

I have tried many different sights and because of the loopy trajectory at 650 fps, target holdover is required at anything beyond 25 meters. 

In my opinion you do NOT want any magnification, as it hurts the instantaneous requirement of distance guessing, and required holdover.





I mounted a laser sight in the V ways machined in the PP700 shroud sides. This allowed the laser beam to be offset by only a 1/2" and easy to compensate for. I adjusted the laser beam to be dead parallel to the barrel line.



I have successfully hit crows and pigeons at 110 meters and when I miss I will still get their undivided attention.

Steve,

I'm slowly understanding that there are very different types of airgunners — each with their particular preferences.

Your shooting successes are spectacular — congratulations!! Birds at 121 yards!



I would like to understand how you achieved them with the equipment you describe in your post.

You see, I had been debating for the longest time whether to buy a 3-12x or a 4-16x scope for my PP700 (.22). For shots out to 70y at most.

You, on the other hand, seem to be shooting without any magnification.



So, how exactly do you set up your shots to 121y?: •Do you guess the range, or use a laser rangefinder? •Do you use a dope card or a ballistic calculator? •Do you hold the laser a certain distance above your quarry to hit it — or how to you aim?





Thanks for enlightening me, Steve. There are still many techniques and gear out there that I'd like to understand.



Matthias

 

[JungleShooter]

Using a shoulder stock or a telescoptic sight has no place on a pistol in my opinion. They take away the ability for rapid deployment and rapid target acquisition.

I have tried many different sights and because of the loopy trajectory at 650 fps, target holdover is required at anything beyond 25 meters. 

In my opinion you do NOT want any magnification, as it hurts the instantaneous requirement of distance guessing, and required holdover.





I mounted a laser sight in the V ways machined in the PP700 shroud sides. This allowed the laser beam to be offset by only a 1/2" and easy to compensate for. I adjusted the laser beam to be dead parallel to the barrel line.



I have successfully hit crows and pigeons at 110 meters and when I miss I will still get their undivided attention.

Steve,

I'm slowly understanding that there are very different types of airgunners — each with their particular preferences.

Your shooting successes are spectacular — congratulations!! Birds at 121 yards!



I would like to understand how you achieved them with the equipment you describe in your post.

You see, I had been debating for the longest time whether to buy a 3-12x or a 4-16x scope for my PP700 (.22). For shots out to 70y at most.

You, on the other hand, seem to be shooting without any magnification.



So, how exactly do you set up your shots to 121y?: •Do you guess the range, or use a laser rangefinder? •Do you use a dope card or a ballistic calculator? •Do you hold the laser a certain distance above your quarry to hit it — or how to you aim?





Thanks for enlightening me, Steve. There are still many techniques and gear out there that I'd like to understand.



Matthias

 

[steve-l]

Mathias, I do use a laser range finder to survey the property I am using, but not when shooting. Once I have selected the best pellet to use, I place targets from min to max expected range to determine the gun's performance and required holdover at each distance. With the 15gr JSB pellet I use, significant holdover is required at all distances beyond my sighting distance (25 meters) and holdunder for shorter distances. Aiming with holdover is infinitely easier if you can see your target.obviously. Only scopes and red/green dot sights allow that.

Hitting your target requires practice, practice and more practice. There is no substitute for practice.. Shooting at paper targets at a fixed distance is great to practice consistent grip, sight picture and smooth trigger work, but it does nothing for estimating distance and required holdover or holdunder, let alone wind and elevation compensation. This also requires practice, lots of practice. When shooting at targets that can move, the time from target acquisition to pulling the trigger needs to be as short as possible if you want to make the shot. Sight magnification distorts distance as well as limits field of view. Pistols have a huge advantage in weight and shooting speed over rifles, but are much more difficult to shoot accurately. In my mind using scopes and shoulder stocks defeat the pistol advantage. If you need a rifle to hit your target, that is what you should buy. In my 60 years of shooting experience, I have found very few good hand gunners. That includes both soldiers and police. In point of fact their level of pistol competence is so poor, it is scary and the reason is simple, they don't practice enough. Further, shooting skills are perishable. I see it in myself. I try to shoot daily and when I lay off for only a week, I detect it in my accuracy. Many years ago, I used to shoot with a German competitor. He was a very good pistol shooter and he told me the magic number was 10,00 rounds a year of practice to be competitive. Even today, many years later, I have no reason to question that number. That number is very expensive with PB weapons, but very affordable with PCP.

 

[JungleShooter]

Steve, thanks for elaborating a bit on your shooting!

Very cool, 60 years of shooting experience!! I have got waaaaays to go to reach that — wait, I won't ever reach that! (unless there's shooting sports in heaven, which I kind of hope there is).



● 10.000 shots a year, that's $400 a year for JSB .22 domes at the current prices. Not out of the question. (Well, add air.)

● 10.000 shots a year, that's 1.6 hours a week (30s per shot), plus an average of 2 hours to drive, pack & setup: 3.5h per week. Not out of the question.





➔ New Year's Resolution: 

Go out and shoot more this year, instead of hanging out on the forums so much!!!



Matthias

 

[steve-l]

In Europe the cost of the 15gr JSB pellet is 10.6 Euro for a tin of 500 or 6.50 Euro for 250, plus shipping of course I try to shoot 40 pellets a day. That is one air charge. I get about 40 rounds per charge with the PP700SA. I also use a Bauer compressor and several 12 liter scuba tanks for air storage. I charge the 12 liter bottles to 235 bar and one bottle will last almost a month with the PP700SA alone. I don't travel to a range. I shoot in the house and in my yard 99% of the time So my annual cost is very low.

 

[JungleShooter]

In Europe the cost of the 15gr JSB pellet is 10.6 Euro for a tin of 500.

Yeah, when I'm in Germany I order from Olga, her prices are great — but when I'm in Peru the store prices get jacked up by the local customs extortionist (...and pellets are heavy and prohibited in hand luggage, otherwise I'd bring 20kg of pellets on every flight to Peru in my hand luggage...! ).

Matthias

 

[L.Leon]

Hard to believe you gentlemen are taking your pp700sa to over 70 meters and humanely dispatching pests. That's rifle territory and even then it's a stretch. 70 meters and beyond are definitely not air pistol practical, seems like the trajectory would be quite loopy at those distances, throw in some wind? And it's seems a daunting task. My pp700sa has taken hundreds of pests, but none over 20-25 yards. Shots at 50 yards plus are rifle turf, unless you're an Annie Oakley type of shooter.

 

[steve-l]

L.Leon, the reason I shoot birds at 100 meters is that hitting a bird at that distance does not kill the bird, but it does get their attention. I will dispatch mice and rats, but not beyond 20 meters with the PP700. When the pellet hits birds at the 100 meter+ distance you definitely hear the pellet slap, but they have always flown away afterwards. You are correct, targets that small at those distances are a huge challenge. I certainly don't hit them all the time, but they usually know they were shot at..To be a competent hand gunner, you need to be able to quickly acquire your target, judge the required elevation and wind and shoot in under 5 seconds or less and that is challenging..

 

[MikeVV]

L.Leon, the reason I shoot birds at 100 meters is that hitting a bird at that distance does not kill the bird, but it does get their attention. I will dispatch mice and rats, but not beyond 20 meters with the PP700. When the pellet hits birds at the 100 meter+ distance you definitely hear the pellet slap, but they have always flown away afterwards. You are correct, targets that small at those distances are a huge challenge. I certainly don't hit them all the time, but they usually know they were shot at..To be a competent hand gunner, you need to be able to quickly acquire your target, judge the required elevation and wind and shoot in under 5 seconds or less and that is challenging... 

Above in bold -

Ahh, yes, birds flying around with pellets in their bellies...freaking wonderful ! Does this seem smart to everyone ?

Mike