Question about Open Division rules

[Altair-uy]

In wftf you can use a knee pad in free position (there is no restriction on size shape etc) and kneeling roll only in kneeling lanes (max 18cm diameter but we mostly use around 10-14cm). You can’t use a seating cushion on kneeling position. Honestly I don’t understand the need for so many classes but if you like it…

 

[scotton]

The WFTF rules are not the same as AAFTA WFTF Division rules. Seat as a kneeling role is OK in all AAFTA Divisions, including WFTF.

Thanks, I misunderstood this statement "NOTE: WFTF Rules allow only a kneeling roll for rear instep support. ". They are talking about the rules from the WFTF, not the WFTF AAFTA Division rules. So I guess we can read between the lines and say that WFTF Division shooters can use a bum bag for a kneeling roll since it says you can in the positional rules.

But I still don't understand this:
Per AAFTA WFTF Division rules:
“B. The seat can only be used as a seat and not as any other means of shooting support, EXCEPT to support the rear instep/ankle on free-position kneeling shots, or as back support on free-position extreme angle targets.”
Why are they going out of their way to say "free-position kneeling shots"? If it's ok to use a bum bag for positional kneeling shots, why not say so? They say so for the Open rules but not in the WFTF rules.

In practice, I don't have a problem with anyone using a bum bag as a kneeling roll as long as they are doing it properly. We do provide a kneeling roll at our shoots, but I realize that some people may practice with a bum bag and want to stay consistent at a match.

 

[Scotchmo]

scotton,

I made a misstatement and will fix it. You are correct about the free position kneeling vs designated kneeling for WFTF (and WFTF division).

 

[Franklink]

Honestly I don’t understand the need for so many classes but if you like it…

Same here, doesn't make sense to me to have all the classes.

BUT, in discussions that have gone on here in the last year, it seems that most prefer the current system of only having to beat a couple guys in your class to be able to go home and tell your wife that you won.

 

[scotton]

In wftf you can use a knee pad in free position (there is no restriction on size shape etc) and kneeling roll only in kneeling lanes (max 18cm diameter but we mostly use around 10-14cm). You can’t use a seating cushion on kneeling position. Honestly I don’t understand the need for so many classes but if you like it…

Just for clarification, you are referring to WFTF matches, not AAFTA matches shooting in WFTF Division.

And we don't have that many classes (yet).

*warning - attempted humor to follow. please don't read any farther if you are soft, easily offended or a cranky old fart*

We have the WFTF Division which mostly matches WFTF rules.

Then we have Hunter Division for the people that can't get off of the ground without help, or who think FT guns look weird and want to shoot "normal" looking guns at American Freedom velocities. Because this was too easy, these shooters were allowed to use the same scopes as everyone else but had to turn them down to 16x. (There is a push for a new class that would basically be Hunter class without the scope restriction because a lot of these guys don't like spending thousands of dollars on a scope and not being able to use all of it).

Then we have Open division, which hardly anyone shoots. Open div is basically WFTF rules with American Freedom velocities. And for some weird reason, this wasn't easy enough so they also allow Open div to use leg straps and thigh rests. Not sure why people don't shoot Open division. As I write this, I'm not sure why I don't shoot Open Division.

And each division has a PCP and Piston class.

Unlike the rest of the world, we unleash all 3 divisions on the same course simultaneously. And that's where the problems begin. Some shooters think they are competing against their division. Some shooters think they are competing against the other divisions. Some of those shooters think that the other divisions have an unfair advantage, even though they aren't actually competing against each other. So they try to change things to make an "even playing field" (even though it's actually 3 different fields, each with its own elevation). So they try to change their division, or the other divisions, or make a new division. All so they can beat someone who is shooting with different rules at the same time as they are. It looks weird when you write it all down, but trust me, we are Americans and we know what we are doing.

So now you know why we have so many divisions. We are constantly looking for ways to get fewer people to shoot field target so that we can complain about the poor participation in field target. Next, I'll tell you all of the ways that American football is better than soccer.

 

[Scotchmo]

...(There is a push for a new class that would basically be Hunter class without the scope restriction because...

More like "There is a push for a new class that would basically be like Open without the seat/sticks restriction because..."

Because? I like to use a higher seat sometimes? That would be the main benefit for me. Actually, I don't care for myself if there is a new class or not. It won't affect me all that much. But a lot of people want it, so I say give it to them.

Once we do that, we have a Division where we could consolidate ALL shooters, so we wouldn't really need the other Divisions anymore? Would we?

 

[scotton]

I think we would still need WFTF due to the 12 fpe thing. So two classes, AAFTA and WFTF. I like it, but what the hell do I know.

 

[Centercut]

I think a lot of the Open shooters look quite becoming in their “girdles”… Take away that girdle and see how many shoot Open. My guess is not many.

 

[scotton]

I've thought about getting a harness, but I'm not sure how I would explain it to my wife.

 

[Franklink]

Just for clarification, you are referring to WFTF matches, not AAFTA matches shooting in WFTF Division.

And we don't have that many classes (yet).

*warning - attempted humor to follow. please don't read any farther if you are soft, easily offended or a cranky old fart*

We have the WFTF Division which mostly matches WFTF rules.

Then we have Hunter Division for the people that can't get off of the ground without help, or who think FT guns look weird and want to shoot "normal" looking guns at American Freedom velocities. Because this was too easy, these shooters were allowed to use the same scopes as everyone else but had to turn them down to 16x. (There is a push for a new class that would basically be Hunter class without the scope restriction because a lot of these guys don't like spending thousands of dollars on a scope and not being able to use all of it).

Then we have Open division, which hardly anyone shoots. Open div is basically WFTF rules with American Freedom velocities. And for some weird reason, this wasn't easy enough so they also allow Open div to use leg straps and thigh rests. Not sure why people don't shoot Open division. As I write this, I'm not sure why I don't shoot Open Division.

And each division has a PCP and Piston class.

Unlike the rest of the world, we unleash all 3 divisions on the same course simultaneously. And that's where the problems begin. Some shooters think they are competing against their division. Some shooters think they are competing against the other divisions. Some of those shooters think that the other divisions have an unfair advantage, even though they aren't actually competing against each other. So they try to change things to make an "even playing field" (even though it's actually 3 different fields, each with its own elevation). So they try to change their division, or the other divisions, or make a new division. All so they can beat someone who is shooting with different rules at the same time as they are. It looks weird when you write it all down, but trust me, we are Americans and we know what we are doing.

So now you know why we have so many divisions. We are constantly looking for ways to get fewer people to shoot field target so that we can complain about the poor participation in field target. Next, I'll tell you all of the ways that American football is better than soccer.

Best summary of the classes I've seen. Easily.

And you preempted it with a claim to humor, yes funny indeed, but also all true.

 

[Franklink]

I think a lot of the Open shooters look quite becoming in their “girdles”… Take away that girdle and see how many shoot Open. My guess is not many.

I wore mine today actually. Only have one neighbor but i took it off before I walked out to the targets. Didn't want them to get the wrong idea about me.

Bobby's still shooting Open, sans harness. He in fact won Nationals in Open class, without a harness. Truly impressive. I've tried it shooting that way at home. It'd take A LOT of practice to get to the point where I could score how I can with the harness.

 

[Scotchmo]

I think we would still need WFTF due to the 12 fpe thing. So two classes, AAFTA and WFTF. I like it, but what the hell do I know.

We don't need a 12fpe limit Class/Division. Any FPE up to 20fpe is allowed in the Open Division, so that already includes any shooter that wants to shoot at 12fpe. They can continue to shoot the same as they always have and still get practice for WFTF World matches.

Sorry - we are way off topic here.

 

[scotton]

We don't need a 12fpe limit Class/Division. Any FPE up to 20fpe is allowed in the Open Division, so that already includes any shooter that wants to shoot at 12fpe. They can continue to shoot the same as they always have and still get practice for WFTF World matches.

Sorry - we are way off topic here.

I thought you would say that. You aren't wrong, but I disagree. In my mind, WFTF is "real" field target because it is contested at the international level. Everything else is competitive plinking. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I've shot plenty of Hunter Division. I think that WFTF shooters should be competing against each other so that they know how they stack up against other shooters using the same set of rules, and how they might stack up against someone in England or South Africa or Germany using the same rules.

Having said that, I would rather everyone compete in one division than have a division for range finders and a division for people that shop at Home Depot and a division for people that shoot left handed springers that are a minimum of 40 years old with open sights. I would still shoot 12 fpe with WFTF rules and my scores wouldn't really change.

 

[Scotchmo]

... I think that WFTF shooters should be competing against each other so that they know how they stack up against other shooters using the same set of rules, and how they might stack up against someone in England or South Africa or Germany using the same rules.

Having said that, I would rather everyone compete in one division than have a division for range finders and a division for people that shop at Home Depot and a division for people that shoot left handed springers that are a minimum of 40 years old with open sights. I would still shoot 12 fpe with WFTF rules and my scores wouldn't really change.

They would be still be competing against each other. On average, 12fpe vs 20fpe scores are not that much different. The 12fpe USA shooters need to be competitive against the top 12fpe and top 20fpe shooters, if they expect to place at the WFTF world match. It’s a benefit for the 12fpe shooters to have a larger pool to test themselves against.

You said you would still shoot 12fpe and that’s commendable. I’m kinda like that. I’d still shoot without a jacket/harness/sticks/riser/etc. because that’s how I like to shoot. And I don’t mind competing against or being compared to those that choose to use those aids if they like to do so.

 

[scotton]

They would be still be competing against each other. On average, 12fpe vs 20fpe scores are not that much different. The 12fpe USA shooters need to be competitive against the top 12fpe and top 20fpe shooters, if they expect to place at the WFTF world match. It’s a benefit for the 12fpe shooters to have a larger pool to test themselves against.

You said you would still shoot 12fpe and that’s commendable. I’m kinda like that. I’d still shoot without a jacket/harness/sticks/riser/etc. because that’s how I like to shoot. And I don’t might competing against or being compared to those that choose to use those aids if they like to do so.

Fair points.

 

[shausen]

We are constantly looking for ways to get fewer people to shoot field target so that we can complain about the poor participation in field target.

I think having newbies read this thread outta do it. I got a headache trying to picture this; the hair-splitting over various bags, men in S&M girdles, tying themselves in slings. Mostly because I've never seen FT in action. I imagined Twister with small beanbags thrown in for fun. The aaft pdf was marginally helpful with it's few pictures. It could use a lot more. On youtube it looks fairly mundane but I'm sure I'm missing the rule splitting nuances since I'm likely focused more on the targets....

I'm working on booking a trip to AZ for the Sonora thing so I'll get some actual on-site (on-sight?) exposure there.