RAW REPORT

[SMH77]

Good points Scott. Does checking the runout really tell you where the barrel clocks (indexing wise) though? If I understand it, gun-drilling is a process where the bore to the OD of the barrel may not be 'co-axial'-thus your vertical (bore) may be at an orientation where your barrel's OD is at a differnt position (say, laterally deflected)-if that makes sense? Indexing would correct for that directly, where as checking runout would only work if the two are concentric, and the barrel itself is warped (banana-shaped).

Thanks for the PM. I'm taking a look at the link you sent me. I'm interested to learn more...



Sean

 

[nomojo65]

Deleted

 

[Motorhead]

Motorhead are u a professional airgunsmith? And do have any examples of your work or competitive results with your work, also do you shoot in usarb 25m with a RAW or a Thomas, if you care to share this info..., my next 25m BR rifle will be a Thomas, I would have one by now but I thought I needed a Daystate first?

Yes, i am a small scale professional Air gun Tuner. AKA: Motorheads AG Tuning Services. I specialize in Field Target guns be them PCP or Spring. Tho do other work on a case by case basis. My primary competitive venue is Field target in recent years. Tune my own guns exclusively and many in our local club too. I don't advertise or do a web site ... Word of mouth and reference only.

Personal Results in the past few years ... (On the big stage )

2016,2017,2018 Multiple AAFTA State championship titles ( OR, NV & CA )

2017 AAFTA NATIONALS ( Arizona ) High Point Champion & Hunter PCP Champion. * being the First "Hunter" shooter in AAFTA history to ever set a Nationals High Score besting all other classes & shooters.

2018 AAFTA Gran Prix National high score champion in Hunter PCP



In competition shoot either a Daystate Mk3 or RAW TM-1000 of which BOTH are .20 caliber. * both highly modified & reworked in house.



Yea, while i keep it on the lowdown, got credentials to back up an opinion.



Scott S

 

[Motorhead]

Good points Scott. Does checking the runout really tell you where the barrel clocks (indexing wise) though? If I understand it, gun-drilling is a process where the bore to the OD of the barrel may not be 'co-axial'-thus your vertical (bore) may be at an orientation where your barrel's OD is at a differnt position (say, laterally deflected)-if that makes sense? Indexing would correct for that directly, where as checking runout would only work if the two are concentric, and the barrel itself is warped (banana-shaped).

Thanks for the PM. I'm taking a look at the link you sent me. I'm interested to learn more...



Sean

In nearly all cases QUALITY barrels are drilled so close to center that when NOT clocked work fine with minimal scope fussing. Now after one machines the barrel to fit receiver there is going to be some minor run out and that is what i address by clocking that to the 12:00 position. The rest just gets sorted out when the optics get mounted.

It CAN NOT be expressed enough that you want barrel rigidity to receiver and given any miens to not degrade it and Improve it should be top of the list if you want consistency from a mechanical standpoint.

As too banana barrels ... LOL Given a good bore and correct pellet will shoot just as well as a straight one ... Honestly !

Not all receivers are manufactured with DEAD NUTS alignment to the scope rail/ mounts. Thus many will go the route of adjustable mounts. Worst case some bend to barrel is not outside of possible POI corrections.

 

[SMH77]

Good points (again). The good thing is that-even if you have a gun with a thimble (me)-it doesn't prevent one from getting a new barrel without a thimble moving forward, correct?

I get the other points too about accuracy being about consistency (banana barrel shooting as well as straight one as long as the bore is good). It has been educational though seeing the amount of variation first hand with indexing my own, new, barrel.



Sean

 

[Motorhead]

Good points (again). The good thing is that-even if you have a gun with a thimble (me)-it doesn't prevent one from getting a new barrel without a thimble moving forward, correct?

I get the other points too about accuracy being about consistency (banana barrel shooting as well as straight one as long as the bore is good). It has been educational though seeing the amount of variation first hand with indexing my own, new, barrel.



Sean

The thimble is just under the 3rd retention screw, remove it and then a full length barrel will fit in the same occupied space. easy peezy

 

[Crusher]

MotorHead, PM sent.

 

[nomojo65]

Motorhead, those are very fine accomplishments and credentials good luck in the future! From my novice perspective the Bm series RAW’s w/Thimble are perfectly adequate for my limited “Resume” experience, maybe someday a Thomas? 

 

[Motorhead]

Motorhead, those are very fine accomplishments and credentials good luck in the future! From my novice perspective the Bm series RAW’s w/Thimbal are perfectly adequate for my limited “Resume” experience, maybe someday a Thomas?

If a TM / BM action .... it may be further along in your learning curve that you start paying attention to how pellets load and able to cull the shot before sending it out for points.

It does not take long to become aware that while loading a loose or overly tight pellet ( You Ignored ) taking a shot when it mattered having the shot go rogue !! you tell yourself DAMN IT that was preventable if i just payed more attention to those small things.



Been there and done that ... more than once, Shame on me !



Scott

 

[nomojo65]

Deleted 

 

[Motorhead]

Ideally .... you want WHAT EVER PELLET your shooting to sit once fully seated with the skirt just past transfer port. With the differing pellet skirt / tail depth the different brand and weight of pellet the IDEAL probe length will differ.

Trick i use is to remove barrel, place a pellet into barrel pushing it just past the transfer port. then insert a cleaning rod from muzzle letting it bump up against head of the pellet.

next wrap a piece of tape around the rod FLUSH with the muzzle. * Now you have gauge for adjusting the probe length for THAT SPECIFIC PELLET.



Now place barrel back into the action and close the bolt into battery. Likely the pellet got moved in further, but no issue ... insert the cleaning rod from muzzle once more until it rests against the pellet. TAKE NOTE how far the tape is now from the muzzle ? That is the amount to remove from the length of the probe tip.



That done every pellet will be better positioned. in application doing this you can position any style / weight of pellet into the barrel at any depth of your choosing.



On some barrels ( Not RAW generally ) where the barrel has free bore / lead ? You can find improved accuracy by paying attention to where the pellet sits prior to firing. I like to set up my leade so it stops right on the forward most edge of transfer port. Upon seating a pellet the HEAD is fully into the rifling and the skirt IS NOT resting right on the transition edge. This creates a cork in the bottle effect that has the pellet breaking free at a more consistent / slightly higher pressure than if Skirt was also fully into the rifling..



* You can also go about this by simply starting over with your chosen pellet, insert into barrel and push it in until you feel the head hit rifling ... push it past and make note when it tightens up again as skirt is about to get compressed into rifling ... STOP THERE. Do the rod and tape measuring ... follow the procedure. Now you are seating the pellet to the barrels specs. * That is UNLESS this happens while your still seeing the pellet viewed threw transfer port ... Crap !





Order above is a bit convoluted as i thought and typed .... it should still make perfect sense.



Scott S



Small things .... so many !!!

Just may take a few extra probes one can buy from RAW or simple manufacture some if lathe equipped.

 

[nomojo65]

I Know I’m way over my head here!, so I’m just going to shut up and learn...? Thank you!...I’ve already learned something, I was misspelling( “leade” ) that is the proper spelling! very important in the context of topic?

 

[mubhaur]

I'm wondering about trying different barrels since its now pretty easy to do (with a thimble on my gun)...

Sean

Not a fan of thimbles on "Single shot" Target guns .... With the freebore ( loose leade ) a thimble has you loose the feel of how a pellet fits the bore when loading.

And the case of RAW you loose 1/3 of the barrels rigidity within the receiver too.

I simply will fit a barrel to receiver and using a dial indicator spin barrel within receiver finding where the run out clocks at 12:00, mark the spot and finish the transfer port and grub screw flats etc ... Done with the full rigidity of receiver front to back.



Scott S

Scott S,

When I used thimble in HM1000X, I feel pellet enganging the grooves all the way to the skirt.

Barrel and thimble overlap a bit and hence not much compromising on the rigidity. 

The results of my set up are very good.

Regards,

Umair Bhaur 

 

[Motorhead]

Sadly you don't get a good feel or any feel on the head fit when first loading ... Tho for most we FT & BR shooters are a neurotic bunch.

 

[mubhaur]

Motorhead are u a professional airgunsmith? And do have any examples of your work or competitive results with your work, also do you shoot in usarb 25m with a RAW or a Thomas, if you care to share this info..., my next 25m BR rifle will be a Thomas, I would have one by now but I thought I needed a Daystate first?

Yes, i am a small scale professional Air gun Tuner. AKA: Motorheads AG Tuning Services. I specialize in Field Target guns be them PCP or Spring. Tho do other work on a case by case basis. My primary competitive venue is Field target in recent years. Tune my own guns exclusively and many in our local club too. I don't advertise or do a web site ... Word of mouth and reference only.

Personal Results in the past few years ... (On the big stage )

2016,2017,2018 Multiple AAFTA State championship titles ( OR, NV & CA )

2017 AAFTA NATIONALS ( Arizona ) High Point Champion & Hunter PCP Champion. * being the First "Hunter" shooter in AAFTA history to ever set a Nationals High Score besting all other classes & shooters.

2018 AAFTA Gran Prix National high score champion in Hunter PCP



In competition shoot either a Daystate Mk3 or RAW TM-1000 of which BOTH are .20 caliber. * both highly modified & reworked in house.



Yea, while i keep it on the lowdown, got credentials to back up an opinion.



Scott S

That's great Scott

 

[mubhaur]

Ideally .... you want WHAT EVER PELLET your shooting to sit once fully seated with the skirt just past transfer port. With the differing pellet skirt / tail depth the different brand and weight of pellet the IDEAL probe length will differ.

Trick i use is to remove barrel, place a pellet into barrel pushing it just past the transfer port. then insert a cleaning rod from muzzle letting it bump up against head of the pellet.

next wrap a piece of tape around the rod FLUSH with the muzzle. * Now you have gauge for adjusting the probe length for THAT SPECIFIC PELLET.



Now place barrel back into the action and close the bolt into battery. Likely the pellet got moved in further, but no issue ... insert the cleaning rod from muzzle once more until it rests against the pellet. TAKE NOTE how far the tape is now from the muzzle ? That is the amount to remove from the length of the probe tip.



That done every pellet will be better positioned. in application doing this you can position any style / weight of pellet into the barrel at any depth of your choosing.



On some barrels ( Not RAW generally ) where the barrel has free bore / lead ? You can find improved accuracy by paying attention to where the pellet sits prior to firing. I like to set up my leade so it stops right on the forward most edge of transfer port. Upon seating a pellet the HEAD is fully into the rifling and the skirt IS NOT resting right on the transition edge. This creates a cork in the bottle effect that has the pellet breaking free at a more consistent / slightly higher pressure than if Skirt was also fully into the rifling..



* You can also go about this by simply starting over with your chosen pellet, insert into barrel and push it in until you feel the head hit rifling ... push it past and make note when it tightens up again as skirt is about to get compressed into rifling ... STOP THERE. Do the rod and tape measuring ... follow the procedure. Now you are seating the pellet to the barrels specs. * That is UNLESS this happens while your still seeing the pellet viewed threw transfer port ... Crap !





Order above is a bit convoluted as i thought and typed .... it should still make perfect sense.



Scott S



Small things .... so many !!!

Just may take a few extra probes one can buy from RAW or simple manufacture some if lathe equipped.

I get more consistent fps and higher accuracy if my pellet head as well as skirt both are engaged in the groves a bit.

 

[mubhaur]

 

[Motorhead]

I get more consistent fps and higher accuracy if my pellet head as well as skirt both are engaged in the groves a bit.



In the case of RAW and how there barrels are set up ... Yup thats what you have, both head & skirt fully in the rifling.

pellet position relative to transfer port .... yup adjustable.

 

[nomojo65]

Deleted 

 

[Imold]

Howdy folks, just checking in to see what the talk of the thread is and it looks like Indexing is the talk of the thread but since I’m not a precision shooter I have no need to Index barrels. On a side note I’ve sold both my RAWs to a good home being they were collecting dust in my safe/cabinet and if I wasn’t so worried about accidentally dropping one of them due to my bad hands I would keep them and enjoy them but they need to be shot and not just looked at. Don’t care if I accidentally drop one of my other synthetic stock airguns but it’s not going to happen to a Rolex of Airguns.