Re-"design" a new Field Target game

[Jezter6]

Inspired by @cavedweller 's post about designing a perfect FT facility, I posted about things I'd redesign about Field Target, that would need facility type changes. Sorry for the long post.

Let me first say, I shoot Hunter Field Target here in the USA, at multiple clubs in the southeast PA area. I do very much enjoy the game, even though I'm not very good. As long as we're having a fun day at the range, I don't care if I ever break a 20 score. Any 'complaints' that I have aren't for lack of fun, or to make it easy so I can win *I wont*, but to improve fun and get more people interested (ie: my 11 y/o). I also fully understand that there's no real money in airguns for clubs. Buying targets, maintenance, etc make it financially difficult to start a new FT style program and or upgrade things on my wish list, so not all of my ideas are realistic, at least not until the level of participation/match fees adequately cover a lot of ideas - this is a dream that maybe serves as inspiration. So, here we go...

1. FPE Limit Changes: Looking at most online shops (krale, pyramyd, etc) - there's just about 50% more .22 rifles available than .177. I see a gap between lower tier .177 and high tier (ie: a gamo vs weihrauch/daystate) shows a fair amount of middle ground missing that I think is covered by more options in .22. Anecdotally (reddit, forum threads) - I see way more people buying their first airgun in .22, at a power level beyond the 20 FPE limit. I get that this is a MAJOR cost issue for clubs. But, if people could come with a reasonable avenger in the ~34 FPE range without getting turned away, growing the sport could pay for it long term.

2. Classes/targets based more on ability: There's the people who do this for GPs and Nationals, who are truly the best 3-5 people at a match, and the rest of us one/two a month weekend warriors. They want/need to be challenged at a level that is different from us, but we could use the encouragement boost of taking down more targets. Maybe something like an additional target per lane (per 2 lanes, whatever) that are easier shots only taken by people in an amateur/junior class. Again, added targets are added cost, and added work. But, you will encourage a new shooter to come back after getting a satisfying number of KZ hits. As for sandbaggers, most small monthly matches have no real prizes anyway, so it doesn't matter.

3. The "hunting sim" argument: I see it both ways. But it could make things more interesting to have more shots/lanes that are more sim. A "barn wall" where you shoot a rat through a gap in the wall boards. A fence rail supported positional lane where you're neither offhand nor buckets or bumbags. (ie: NRL22 props) It doesnt have to be every lane, but some new and interesting variety would improve the game for me. Nothing needs to be some timed multi-position lane where you're flopping around and moving barrels.

4. Tying in with #2 above, the KYL style lane(s): 5 targets of varying difficulty - pick 2. Easy troyer targets get .9 points, mid 1-1.1, hard 1.3+. Choose your own difficulty level for your own score.


These are just my goofy ideas. Feel free to add your own or improve on an existing one. This is a 'for fun' style post, so let fun ideas fly.

 

[beerthief]

Inspired by @cavedweller 's post about designing a perfect FT facility, I posted about things I'd redesign about Field Target, that would need facility type changes. Sorry for the long post.

Let me first say, I shoot Hunter Field Target here in the USA, at multiple clubs in the southeast PA area. I do very much enjoy the game, even though I'm not very good. As long as we're having a fun day at the range, I don't care if I ever break a 20 score. Any 'complaints' that I have aren't for lack of fun, or to make it easy so I can win *I wont*, but to improve fun and get more people interested (ie: my 11 y/o). I also fully understand that there's no real money in airguns for clubs. Buying targets, maintenance, etc make it financially difficult to start a new FT style program and or upgrade things on my wish list, so not all of my ideas are realistic, at least not until the level of participation/match fees adequately cover a lot of ideas - this is a dream that maybe serves as inspiration. So, here we go...

1. FPE Limit Changes: Looking at most online shops (krale, pyramyd, etc) - there's just about 50% more .22 rifles available than .177. I see a gap between lower tier .177 and high tier (ie: a gamo vs weihrauch/daystate) shows a fair amount of middle ground missing that I think is covered by more options in .22. Anecdotally (reddit, forum threads) - I see way more people buying their first airgun in .22, at a power level beyond the 20 FPE limit. I get that this is a MAJOR cost issue for clubs. But, if people could come with a reasonable avenger in the ~34 FPE range without getting turned away, growing the sport could pay for it long term.

2. Classes/targets based more on ability: There's the people who do this for GPs and Nationals, who are truly the best 3-5 people at a match, and the rest of us one/two a month weekend warriors. They want/need to be challenged at a level that is different from us, but we could use the encouragement boost of taking down more targets. Maybe something like an additional target per lane (per 2 lanes, whatever) that are easier shots only taken by people in an amateur/junior class. Again, added targets are added cost, and added work. But, you will encourage a new shooter to come back after getting a satisfying number of KZ hits. As for sandbaggers, most small monthly matches have no real prizes anyway, so it doesn't matter.

3. The "hunting sim" argument: I see it both ways. But it could make things more interesting to have more shots/lanes that are more sim. A "barn wall" where you shoot a rat through a gap in the wall boards. A fence rail supported positional lane where you're neither offhand nor buckets or bumbags. (ie: NRL22 props) It doesnt have to be every lane, but some new and interesting variety would improve the game for me. Nothing needs to be some timed multi-position lane where you're flopping around and moving barrels.

4. Tying in with #2 above, the KYL style lane(s): 5 targets of varying difficulty - pick 2. Easy troyer targets get .9 points, mid 1-1.1, hard 1.3+. Choose your own difficulty level for your own score.


These are just my goofy ideas. Feel free to add your own or improve on an existing one. This is a 'for fun' style post, so let fun ideas fly.

maybe clubs could take old used targets and make larger KZ / paint the old /new targets Orange so only the shooters that want to need shoot them , score down the side of the card ,not in the scorecard itself. think recycling not new investment .

 

[AirNGasman]

1. FPE Limit Changes: Looking at most online shops (krale, pyramyd, etc) - there's just about 50% more .22 rifles available than .177. I see a gap between lower tier .177 and high tier (ie: a gamo vs weihrauch/daystate) shows a fair amount of middle ground missing that I think is covered by more options in .22. Anecdotally (reddit, forum threads) - I see way more people buying their first airgun in .22, at a power level beyond the 20 FPE limit. I get that this is a MAJOR cost issue for clubs. But, if people could come with a reasonable avenger in the ~34 FPE range without getting turned away, growing the sport could pay for it long term.

Much easier said than done, considering targets that hold up to 34 foot-pounds are MAGNITUDES more expensive than 20 FP field targets. Magnitudes more expensive, times 20 or thirty targets looks like this- MAGNITUDES X 20 or 30 = $$$!

I've managed to build an Extreme FT program/venue in Texas despite being poverty-level poor; but only thanks to half my extreme targets being donated, and scraping and scrounging to buy the other half.

.

 

[Jezter6]

Much easier said than done, considering targets that hold up to 34 foot-pounds are MAGNITUDES more expensive than 20 FP field targets. Magnitudes more expensive, times 20 or thirty targets looks like this- MAGNITUDES X 20 or 30 = $$$!

I've managed to build an Extreme FT program/venue in Texas despite being poverty-level poor; but only thanks to half my extreme targets being donated, and scraping and scrounging to buy the other half.

.

Oh yeah. I hopefully adequately noted that it's a costly problem. I just think growing the sport in the US is going to require some changes to accommodate more average entry level shooters.

 

[humbled.ag]

Here are some realized hurdles from a shooter who's looked into this.

A 40 shot FT match needs about an acre to be shot safely. It keep all rounds, including ricochettes, full misses and accidental discharges from escaping into the surrounding public. Higher energy will require a longer/wider safety zone, and therefore more room to host the event. Target cost has been addressed.

Adding extra targets, classes and lanes adds to more than cost. It adds time. Time to course maintence and time to target maintenence. It makes the day's longer and causes shooter back ups. As an example, I spend 3-5 hours a month doing course maintenence, and 8 hours on match day hosting a 50 shot match. That's not including help from other shooters. Making the day longer, and more difficult for Match Directors will make for a short lived activity.

For fun, how about the deep pockets turn out so we can have the best matches on the most beautiful properties with no match fee's, unlimited air and all the targets at all the ranges. I'll be the first to offer my time, at a discount of $50/hour to get the ball rolling. I'll be waiting for your email Daddy Warbucks (not op)

 

[scotton]

There is already field target designed for guns over 20 fpe. But the people buying the .22 Avengers as their first airgun aren't flocking to EFT events. Almost everyone that shoots EFT is coming from regular FT, not the other way around. I think the way to encourage new shooters is for clubs to invest in a couple of loaner guns rather than spending thousands on EFT targets. And, as has been said, the 20 fpe limit isn't just for the targets, it's also for the land. Most clubs don't have the real estate to allow people to shoot high powered air guns even if the targets can handle it.

For the kid/new shooter thing, just do "fun rifle" scoring. Face plate hits are worth 1, kill zone hits are worth 2. Easy peasy, we've been doing that at ASC for years.

 

[dgeesaman]

2. Classes/targets based more on ability: There's the people who do this for GPs and Nationals, who are truly the best 3-5 people at a match, and the rest of us one/two a month weekend warriors. They want/need to be challenged at a level that is different from us, but we could use the encouragement boost of taking down more targets. Maybe something like an additional target per lane (per 2 lanes, whatever) that are easier shots only taken by people in an amateur/junior class. Again, added targets are added cost, and added work. But, you will encourage a new shooter to come back after getting a satisfying number of KZ hits. As for sandbaggers, most small monthly matches have no real prizes anyway, so it doesn't matter.

It almost suggests having a handicap like the golf. I could see it being sloped on the Troyer scale, and like golf, it should probably lean toward how you shoot on a good day vs. just your average.

Or again, like golf, have different sets of shooting lines. Use the shorter set for the less skilled shooters.

David

 

[Jezter6]

There is already field target designed for guns over 20 fpe.

True in basic fact. A sub35 fpe in xft is probably equivalent to shooting a CO2 or multi pump in regular ft... extremely unlikely to produce any reasonable chance of hitting a moderate difficulty shot. There's a very obvious fpe friendly gap, that covers the most available airguns on the market.

Particularly in the affordable PCP range. The number of reasonable .177 choices between gamo and a dreamline classic are smaller in .177 than .22

 

[Jezter6]

Or again, like golf, have different sets of shooting lines. Use the shorter set for the less skilled shooters.

David

IMHO it's about knockdowns being more encouraging for new shooters to keep coming back vs facing a bunch of expert troyer targets they realistically have a 2% chance of hitting.

 

[Motorhead]

BIG YAWN .... once more folks unwilling to purchase the correct tool for the task of established FT protocol, Wishing to change the rules to fit there unfortunate circumstances of non compliance of what requirements have been in place for decades !!!

Don't shoot the messenger

 

[Jezter6]

BIG YAWN .... once more folks unwilling to purchase the correct tool for the task of established FT protocol, Wishing to change the rules to fit there unfortunate circumstances of non compliance of what requirements have been in place for decades !!!

Don't shoot the messenger

I'd posit that technology has changed over the decades...but that's just me.

I've got my $2k rig, *********.

Why are so few new people showing up to matches?

And why aren't parents dropping tons of cash to get their kids involved? We need more youth involved...it can't be because we've gatekept everyone out, can it?

 

[Motorhead]

I'd posit that technology has changed over the decades...but that's just me.

I've got my $2k rig, *******

Why are so few new people showing up to matches?

Because the clubs or areas that offer existing FT events are doing a poor job of promoting the game perhaps ?
In the past 10 years we have done nothing but grow ... We gain more shooters than we loose yet still see growth which is telling we're doing something right.

Guns, Shooting of any kind has become so NON politically correct and nearly universally unacceptable in much of the country .... The math of this if looked at is quite obvious.

 

[Scotchmo]

IMHO it's about knockdowns being more encouraging for new shooters to keep coming back vs facing a bunch of expert troyer targets they realistically have a 2% chance of hitting.

I was an FT match director for 10 years and agree that beginners should be encouraged by being able to knock down a good number of targets. With two targets per lane, I tended to set the closer targets for the beginners. The current GP rules discourage that practice as it makes it near impossible to be awarded the higher GP scores needed to win an overall GP.

Clubs that are seeing new shooters showing up monthly can still set more of the easier close targets. No need to change the game.

 

[Jezter6]

Clubs that are seeing new shooters showing up monthly can still set more of the easier close targets. No need to change the game.

I agree. I don't think there needs to be much rule changes, just a way to ensure a decent time is had. An extra target every 2 or so lanes that's a new person class target only keeps the hard good fun for people who don't want to shoot the easy one is a fairly small change with little overall effect.

I don't see anything that negatively affects any existing shooters or rules...

 

[Scotchmo]

I agree. I don't think there needs to be much rule changes, just a way to ensure a decent time is had. An extra target every 2 or so lanes that's a new person class target only keeps the hard good fun for people who don't want to shoot the easy one is a fairly small change with little overall effect.

I don't see anything that negatively affects any existing shooters or rules...

An “extra target every 2 or so lanes” is more money to spend and more work setting courses. It’s not really necessary when we already have two targets per lane, one easy and one hard.

 

[scotton]

I'd posit that technology has changed over the decades...but that's just me.

I've got my $2k rig, *********.

Why are so few new people showing up to matches?

And why aren't parents dropping tons of cash to get their kids involved? We need more youth involved...it can't be because we've gatekept everyone out, can it?

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but the reason why it's hard to retain young shooters and kids is because it's a fairly boring sport. The things that make it a good sport for old guys also make it boring for young guys. Before you warm up the flame thrower, think about what you were doing in your 20s or 30s for fun. If you have disposable income and are still fairly flexible, there are a lot of shooting sports out there that are a lot of fun. Then, once your body and bank account start to get worn out, you might "discover" field target. If you ask a field target shooter if they used to shoot something else, almost all of them will say that they did, but they either aged out of the other sport or it got too expensive.

We have a youth day at our club every year where kids come out and shoot basically everything that the club has to offer. Over the years we have had well over a thousand kids shoot Marauders at steel targets. Of those 1,000+ kids that have been introduced to field target, we have had exactly 0 show up to a match. I'm hoping that we'll start seeing some of these kids in about 30 years.

 

[gonzav71]

How about doing a speed round on a 20-target pistol field target course with a rifle for novice shooters? 35-yard max. Shoot as fast you can and as many shots as possible within 10 minutes to knock down as many targets or all 20 targets on 10 lanes. One shot per target of course. Fastest time wins.
For novices, you can do golf like scoring with a max number of shots per target like a par for the difficulty level.

 

[cavedweller]

Inspired by @cavedweller 's post about designing a perfect FT facility, I posted about things I'd redesign about Field Target, that would need facility type changes. Sorry for the long post.

Let me first say, I shoot Hunter Field Target here in the USA, at multiple clubs in the southeast PA area. I do very much enjoy the game, even though I'm not very good. As long as we're having a fun day at the range, I don't care if I ever break a 20 score. Any 'complaints' that I have aren't for lack of fun, or to make it easy so I can win *I wont*, but to improve fun and get more people interested (ie: my 11 y/o). I also fully understand that there's no real money in airguns for clubs. Buying targets, maintenance, etc make it financially difficult to start a new FT style program and or upgrade things on my wish list, so not all of my ideas are realistic, at least not until the level of participation/match fees adequately cover a lot of ideas - this is a dream that maybe serves as inspiration. So, here we go...

1. FPE Limit Changes: Looking at most online shops (krale, pyramyd, etc) - there's just about 50% more .22 rifles available than .177. I see a gap between lower tier .177 and high tier (ie: a gamo vs weihrauch/daystate) shows a fair amount of middle ground missing that I think is covered by more options in .22. Anecdotally (reddit, forum threads) - I see way more people buying their first airgun in .22, at a power level beyond the 20 FPE limit. I get that this is a MAJOR cost issue for clubs. But, if people could come with a reasonable avenger in the ~34 FPE range without getting turned away, growing the sport could pay for it long term.

2. Classes/targets based more on ability: There's the people who do this for GPs and Nationals, who are truly the best 3-5 people at a match, and the rest of us one/two a month weekend warriors. They want/need to be challenged at a level that is different from us, but we could use the encouragement boost of taking down more targets. Maybe something like an additional target per lane (per 2 lanes, whatever) that are easier shots only taken by people in an amateur/junior class. Again, added targets are added cost, and added work. But, you will encourage a new shooter to come back after getting a satisfying number of KZ hits. As for sandbaggers, most small monthly matches have no real prizes anyway, so it doesn't matter.

3. The "hunting sim" argument: I see it both ways. But it could make things more interesting to have more shots/lanes that are more sim. A "barn wall" where you shoot a rat through a gap in the wall boards. A fence rail supported positional lane where you're neither offhand nor buckets or bumbags. (ie: NRL22 props) It doesnt have to be every lane, but some new and interesting variety would improve the game for me. Nothing needs to be some timed multi-position lane where you're flopping around and moving barrels.

4. Tying in with #2 above, the KYL style lane(s): 5 targets of varying difficulty - pick 2. Easy troyer targets get .9 points, mid 1-1.1, hard 1.3+. Choose your own difficulty level for your own score.


These are just my goofy ideas. Feel free to add your own or improve on an existing one. This is a 'for fun' style post, so let fun ideas fly.

Stay tuned, as I’m currently working on a new design for a field target. I should add this is not to make "things easier" from a shooters accuracy standpoint, rather a way to eliminate time consuming things like set up, break down, strings while minimizing target maintenance...and yes i may be tapping on many of your wise ol shoulders as i work this out. In the end my idea may just be in addition to but we shall see, as i'm hoping to try my very basic idea out as early as 8 June.

 

[Lgwoodworker]

I am relatively new to FT and as such have little to offer in specifics of "the game", but i can offer some observations from the short time that i have participated in it...

A common theme in this (and many other threads) is the growing of the sport. As I read the suggestions for growing the participation a old saying comes to mind: "figure out whether you have been shot, stabbed, snake-bit, or powderburned." I plan to participate in this sport for as long as I can safely handle a gun, and that decision has almost nothing to do with the rules or format of the game, nor the difficulty factor. I think all the ideas offered above have merit, but may not be addressing some other more relevant issues. I have been "hooked" by the people first and foremost ... match directors like Ron R., Ben S., Rex J. and fellow competitors like Dan, Cole, Bobby, Jeff C, Billy D, Dave C. and so many more. They made me feel welcomed and mitigated my feelings of being a Noob. They were people that I could relate to and related to me.

Bear with me as I relate a (imo) relevant anecdote: I was at my local range practicing and struck up a conversation with another shooter about airgun advancements and the cost of my Alpha Wolf. He said he could relate as his son was into paintball in a big way and that was very expensive. He said to his son, "I could go out and buy 3 good hunting rifles for what i paid for your paintball set up!", to which the son replied "Yeah, but you can't shoot your friends with them."

Young people, old people, men, women, we all want a reference group that we can relate to and interact on a common basis with. That is the "hook" for me. The competition, the challenge, the difficulty, the rules, these all take a very distant third (second is getting new toys) to being around like-minded, friendly, and generous people. While the young man mentioned in the anecdote above may have enjoyed hunting with his Dad, it sounds like he preferred hanging out with and "shooting his friends".

All this to say that while re-imagining or "re-designing" FT may be a valid and a worthwhile endeavor, it may not be addressing the "3 R's" of group participation growth: recruit, retain, return. The re-design goal of primarily to make it easier to knock a target down will make the sport easier. It will not necessarily grow participation. If the goal is to grow participation, perhaps some thought into what makes people participate in any given activity is in order.

 

[scotton]

I am relatively new to FT and as such have little to offer in specifics of "the game", but i can offer some observations from the short time that i have participated in it...

A common theme in this (and many other threads) is the growing of the sport. As I read the suggestions for growing the participation a old saying comes to mind: "figure out whether you have been shot, stabbed, snake-bit, or powderburned." I plan to participate in this sport for as long as I can safely handle a gun, and that decision has almost nothing to do with the rules or format of the game, nor the difficulty factor. I think all the ideas offered above have merit, but may not be addressing some other more relevant issues. I have been "hooked" by the people first and foremost ... match directors like Ron R., Ben S., Rex J. and fellow competitors like Dan, Cole, Bobby, Jeff C, Billy D, Dave C. and so many more. They made me feel welcomed and mitigated my feelings of being a Noob. They were people that I could relate to and related to me.

Bear with me as I relate a (imo) relevant anecdote: I was at my local range practicing and struck up a conversation with another shooter about airgun advancements and the cost of my Alpha Wolf. He said he could relate as his son was into paintball in a big way and that was very expensive. He said to his son, "I could go out and buy 3 good hunting rifles for what i paid for your paintball set up!", to which the son replied "Yeah, but you can't shoot your friends with them."

Young people, old people, men, women, we all want a reference group that we can relate to and interact on a common basis with. That is the "hook" for me. The competition, the challenge, the difficulty, the rules, these all take a very distant third (second is getting new toys) to being around like-minded, friendly, and generous people. While the young man mentioned in the anecdote above may have enjoyed hunting with his Dad, it sounds like he preferred hanging out with and "shooting his friends".

All this to say that while re-imagining or "re-designing" FT may be a valid and a worthwhile endeavor, it may not be addressing the "3 R's" of group participation growth: recruit, retain, return. The re-design goal of primarily to make it easier to knock a target down will make the sport easier. It will not necessarily grow participation. If the goal is to grow participation, perhaps some thought into what makes people participate in any given activity is in order.

Good post. We have been talking about "growth" for as long as I've been shooting field target. While we have seen a slight increase in shooters at our matches in the last 10 years, I don't think it's from a real effort to grow. For us (at ASC), I think the key is consistency. If people know that we are going to have a match on the same day every month, and it's going to be a good match without drama or circus music, people will come. We lose a few people every year to age, re-location or change of interest, but we are net positive every year.

Back when I used to have a real job, the thinking was that it's easier and cheaper to retain employees than to hire new employees. Same goes for field target, which is why more effort is put into keeping the current shooters happy than changing things to attract new shooters.