Recomendation for an air pistol purchase? (easy to power tune)

[Savagefox]

Hi, I'm looking for a pistol to plink and ocasional small game at short ranges.

I like to have the ''feel'' of a pistol, but besides bb/co2 plinkers (pretty much useles for hunting or precision) the more ''serious'' air pistols are too large and bulky for my taste, so I prefer more lightweight and short if its possible.

I also want to power tune it, my budget is arround 300 bucks, so the high end WH 44, silhouette and other are discarded.



First contender is the Kral puncher NP-01, a little down the 300 bucks in my country. It has the power from the start... but man it's ugly as poop... and heavy. I also don't hear wonders of it's accuracy so I fear I may regret the purchase.











https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8WBmG0y3-M













The second option is the inexpensive 130 bucks Diana Bandit (or Artemis PP800 or CP2 in other regions), at least its slim, lightweight, and if you remove the silencer its not ''that'' large, but it lacks serious power.

In this forum I read something about 20+fpe tuning. Unmoded only delivers around 12 or so... WTF... how???

Also I don't like the reports on poor accuracy (yet others report the contrary) mechanical and feeding fails etc... but hey.. if it can be solved whit love and care tunning, I don't mind, specially if it can be tunned into a 20+fpe powerhouse.











https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8g7Trx7Y0Q













The last one is the oddity that is the Sortie, 340 bucks, a little over the budget... but hatsan and kral are generally a lot cheeper in my country than in America.

It lacks power, its big, and it it's as ugly as sending grandma to purchase drugs, but it looks so freaking fun.

I only consider the buy if I can power tune that fun monstruosity.











https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4qvUUsdD7Y













To resume it, for the looks and price I would go for the Artemis, for the specs the Kral NP-01, and for poops and jiggles the Sortie.

But in the end... it can only be one...



(I also accept other models suggestions)

 

[Rob_in_NC]

I'd have to go PP700. I had the big brother to the Sortie (Bullmaster) and it frustrated the piss out of me with failures and I got rid of it. Could also consider a 2240 based PCP. Not sure where you are, but can get PCP tubes for them relatively cheaply. I have one such converted to a .36 cal running around 55fpe. 

 

[bandg]

Seems in your price range the pp700 might be the best option for PCP. A good worked over Crosman 1377 or 1322 can shoot powerfully and accurately as well.

 

[Savagefox]

Nice little gun sir.

Years ago I have the crosman 1377, 10 pumps in .177. in that time I was too young and live whit my parents, my mother freak out when she discovers my new friend and drop it right to the trash hole...

I'm seeing marvelous modded 2240, but those people are true and dedicated artist, I only have some basic tools and not much experience, I can replace a spring or maybe drill a bigger hole here and there.. but elaborating new valves andcutting exact pieces is out of my leage.

 

[Savagefox]

Why choosing the PP700 over the PP800 with the multi shot magazine? Also, is it easy to power tune just drilling a bigger hole or replacing the spring?

 

[Rob_in_NC]

Again, I'm not sure where you are, but here in the US, the parts to mod are plentiful with the 2240 and one only needs basic tools and knowledge to bolt them together as I did the 36 cal.

As to why the 700 over the 800... I only recommended the 700 as it is what I'm familiar with. I dont own a PP800 and cannot speak to if the addition of the magazine is the only difference. 

 

[Vetmx]

The PP700 will always kick the PP800’s butt. I have both. The PP700 is just a better design for accuracy and power. The PP700 does require some work. Maybe chasing a leak or something but if you only have a budget PCP budget, you better develop some mechanical skills. 

 

[biohazardman]

I'm sure that the Kral, Diana, Artemus can easily be modified for a bit more power by drilling ports or spring changes depending of course on their barrel length.

You can also go to the Crosman custom shop and build your own gun on a budget. I went with the KT2400 because you want the longer tube length. Build is with the standard Crosman barrel although I would suggest the .22 14.6” LW barrel for a bit more money. Yes, you will need some pistol grips they are dirt cheap or get some nice wood for it.

https://www.crosman.com/custom-shop/#

Next is the Baker Max Flow system. It will set you up for a bulked gun. Install the valve in the tube then mark the tube and drill three holes for 8x32 screws through the tube and into the valve. See that they are in line with the transfer port and include the already drilled #6 screw hole on the bottom of the tube. 





Mark tube



Drill tube



Thread tube and vavle inside

Install three 8x32 grade 8 screws and your good to 2000psi. I have used a similar set up for many years without problems and others have tested the tubes to 8-10K PSI.

https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/boss-max-flow-system/

This mod should put you at near 20FPE with the 18.2 JSB pellets and I would expect somewhere in the 14-20 shot per fill area. You can increase/decrease the power a bit with a slight pressure increase/decrease or better yet a hammer spring adjuster which is always a good thing for tuning purposes.

Total cost $153, $208 with the LW barrel. Only drawback is it is a single shot.

I wish you luck with your journey.

 

[MScottLeeman]

A Crosman 1322 is a great choice. Enough power for rabbits/squirrels and Very Easy to upgrade.

Just throwin' this out there.

Mike

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

I'd recommend the pp800. I can get parts for them. Kral seems to not supply spares, or they're very hard to get. 

I have a 25 caliber pp800 that was doing 30fpe. It is a single shot, and there is no magazine available. Nor is the receiver machined for one. I detuned it to 27-28ish fpe where it is very happy. The barrel has no choke that I can tell, and the result is that it is not picky about what velocity it shoots pellets at. 25gr jsbs it likes the best and shoots them extremely well.

Mine uses a pr700w hammer spring. And has a full port job of 5.1mm. Up from 3.5. I also ported behind the valve exhaust to 5.4mm to account for valve stem volume. 

I also cut back the poppet to extend valve actuation. As well as reduced the back side of the vlave housing. Valve travel was severely reduced to keep it under 500fps for Canada regulations. Gets 8 shots 620-680fps. But I will plink with 15 or more shots. Here is 5 @25 with 1 that I pulled. Trigger was 1 lb 8 oz (after adjusting) It was much, much stiffer than that. I now have it at 14oz.

I'd recommend the 22 caliber unless you just want the 25. The 22 does have a magazine. I got the 25 because I had a 177 Bandit and fooled with it some. It was easy to work on, so I was curious what I could get the 25 to do. I was also confident it would shoot/perform well due to experience with the bandit. 

.

 

[SteveV]

I would have to second Rob in NC's suggestion -

Some sort of Crosman 22XX hpa conversion is how I accomplish your goal -

Star with a Crosman Custom Shop purchas, as in a 2400 with a 10" 22 caliber barrel, a Discovery type valve and fill adapter, a little time on the drill press -

VOILA -

Would probably need a Cothran valve to hit 20 fpe, but it will kill a squirrel or rabbit with far less -

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

I've never seen the 22xxs done quite like that, but I did stay away from them for hpa due to hearing about some of the newer air tubes being dangerous to work with at that working pressure. Of course, un-stamped tubes can be had. I think checking tube wall thickness is needed. Can anyone clarify? I do have a 1322pcp, but the budget on it is rather high.

 

[Raden1942]

Jmo don't get a 1322 to mod it. I did and now I have a beast of a gun but I could have just bought a marauder pistol for the cost that comes with a 1 year warranty. Not that you couldn't just do a few power mods and stop there with just say 200 bucks investment but that was my plan and I just couldn't stop until I got steel ambidextrous reciever, flat top piston, stainless roll pin, upgraded valve and springs, ported transfer port, trigger job "more time than money" and a new barrel, now add discovery sights and then a scope and let's not stop there how about a paint job? I need the option for carbine stock right? Well now my barrel is too short to really let my new parts work so 14.5in barrel gets ordered. Whoops my 200 dollar project is over 400 bucks before I even buy the scope. Just saying it can happen. 

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

Yup^ both my 1322s are UP there. I think the pumper is around $700 and pcp is around $800. The pp800 I have, however, I only added a $10 thread adapter for LDC, and the sight rail $15, and the sight $50? There are cheaper sights to be had. Or just use the open sights. But it is by far the cheapest gun I have out of 8 that I shoot regularly. And plenty of fun/accurate! 

 

[SteveV]

Crosman custom shop tubes are not stamped. Rob in NC, Biohazardman, and myself have not been blown up or injured by our 22XX hpa conversions.

 

[Savagefox]

Thank you all, I belive I'm going for the PP700 or PP800. It's pretty clear that the Sortie is a mess, and I'm not hearing much praise for the Kral.

I see the 2240 and 1377 (I have this last one on my youth days) can achieve impresive results, but requires an equally impresive amount of work and knowing what you are doing, wich I'm not.



I'm between the PP700 or PP800, like the multi-shot of the 800, but it appears that the 700 is much more accurate and better, also more prone to leaks and troubleshoting.

Either way, the caliber is gonna be .177 to take the maximum advantage of my country legal limit of 24 joules (around 17 fpe).

I also want to mod it with my 3d printer, better moderator and probably a self cooking slide that raise the cooking bolt whit an elevation groove, then push it cooking the spring, and slides-back automatically with some rubber, returning the bolt down with anoter groove... pretty simple and it can look fantastic with a bit of love and trial/error.



I've done slingshot rifle pieces, this isn't very complicated, the part that's gonna be new for me is the power tune to reach the legal limit. Any hints on this? I just need to drill a bigger hole? where? how?

 

[Vetmx]

If you go with a PP700, depending on where you buy it, if it comes from anywhere other than Canada, it might be smoking right out of the box. Maybe just a little adjustment on the hammer spring screw and it will be cooking. Wow, there were a lot of commas in that first sentence.

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

Crosman custom shop tubes are not stamped. Rob in NC, Biohazardman, and myself have not been blown up or injured by our 22XX hpa conversions.

Good to know! Thank you. That makes things pretty straightforward and easy. Far easier than I was ever aware.



As far as modding a pp700 or 800 for 17fpe in .177, you are going to struggle. That's asking a lot from a pistol. Reason being simple. *Barrel volume* you're choosing the least efficient caliber to work with, and as a result the gun will struggle to make that kind of power. In that small caliber.

The pp800 can, I have no doubt, but your power curve is going to be unsightly. You'll only have a tiny handful of shots at that power. And the air reservoir is so small there is not room for a large enough regulator plenum to make that kind of power. My 177 Bandit has a regulator, and no plenum. I have it tuned to shoot a 50 shot string at 650fps with 8gr pellets. It has a 50cc reserviour. Even less with the regulator. That's pretty tiny in my opinion. The bandit did shoot 16fpe max without any tuning, and no regulator. Which is a lot for a small .177 pistol. And even then the power curve was atrocious. Very few shots at peak power, most falling off steeply on either side. With the regulator and large plenum (remember I deleted the plenum because it cut my air supply down to 30cc or so) at max charge, and regulator turned up to the same pressure the power previously peaked at... I lost a good 120fps with the same projectiles. The reason being, the actual air charge is deminished due to the restricted size of the plenum. Given the air tube dimensions, the small plenum was already too large. 

22 is far more efficient due to larger barrel volume. More space for air to expand and act on the projectile. The 25 is more efficient than 22, but the projectiles are quite large, and do take considerable air to fire them.

The pp700 is regulated. And you will struggle to make the power you talk of without removing the regulator I would think? If you can? Again coming back to restricted plenum volume. My 25 caliber has no regulator. I put mine in it to see how it would do, and it lost a huge amount of power, as I expected. I think I lost 9fpe



I should also note the moderator on my bandit worked quite well, but only after flipping the last 3 baffles around backwards doesn't make sense, but I tried every other arrangement. There is no moderator for the 25 caliber. And I'm not even sure of the pp800s come with them either. I kmow the cp2 and bandit does. All the barrels are threaded m10x1.0

 

[Vetmx]

Long gun brings up a good point. I don’t get caught up in all this fpe crap but simply put, a .177 PP700 can easily be a 750fps gun using 8-9gr pellets. Without doing some math, if you want a .177 pistol to produce that kind of power you might have to put some gunpowder behind it.

 

[Raden1942]

I have the p700w. If you open the adjustable regulater up and tighten the hammer tension screw or possibly purchase a stronger spring and if you use the 22 cal option you can make 17 fpe without drilling or complicated work very easily. Also the higher mass and larger bullet deliver more energy down range than the 177. However if you are stuck on the 177 just do the same thing but drill out the transfer port area on the block. There are many threads out there on this. I belive you could probably get at least 15 fpe without too much sacrifice on shot count. Here's the thing though I don't think it's worth it. I did it and it went from 30 shots to 15 shots for just like 90 fps. I would rock the 22 and just tune it for power from the factory settings. Listen man this keeps your warranty valid. You can always go back after shooting it and learning it for a year and then you will really understand its capabilities and strengths as well as its weakness. or just get the marauder pistol and adjust the preload to get a couple extra fpe. Then you get a multishot that's accurate. I don't think fpe really becomes important until your shooting foxes and bigger. Squirrels and rabbits die just by looking at them the wrong way. Jk but seriously accuracy and shot placement is more important. The stock marauder or pp700w can do that fine. If you good luck