Red Wolf HP Woes/Options

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So some good news to report tonight - I am starting to get better groups. Takes a bit of patience to understand the problem.

I noticed something on the pellet that I seated yesterday and pulled back out - the mark from the pellet probe was quite a bit off center. I thought how can that be?

1597373353_8132923295f35fba92b8239.08298538.JPG


So, I set about to manually load the pellets without the single shot tray. Wow the 25gr groups improved, even the 34 gr groups improved. So, I made a manual pellet inserter to center the pellet in the bore further and make sure it was centered. No clear improvement for that try. Putting the rifle away for a while, I noticed that the cocking lever screw was loose. It had backed out a ton. So some more groups and the 25gr started to get very repeatable. I re-installed the manual tray and groups remained pretty good, but occasional flyers. With breezy, but not strong winds - I shot 236 6x at 75 yrds with the 25 gr. That's real improvement!! Is it possible there are other parts that have loosened over time that I could re-tighten?

On the 34gr front, I am still getting flyers, but much better now. I shot a 223 2x in the breezy conditions with the MK2. I suspect that my MK2s may be older or possibly lubed, so I am going to hold off judgment on these for now. 

Still not great, so I submitted a request to AoA for a warranty look or maybe a 22 cal upgrade. They would like a $180 service charge for cleaning, lubing and o-ring replacement/reseal. They would look at barrel at the same time and clean/polish as needed. I sort of expected this, hence my reluctance to go there first, since I purchased the RW used. I am not sure I will move forward with that - not sure it will accomplish much, other than lightening my wallet further. I am leaning towards a tune and 22 cal barrel kit. I will reach out to Ken Hicks to get a quote.

The MK2's got me thinking, though - what if the throat is causing a slight out of angle on the 34gr pellets, this is translated to a wobble at the exit of bore. If I could fix that, the groups would be better. So rather than cut the throat, I dusted off my Beeman Pell Sizer - I have a 25 cal set of dies. BadaBING! Groups really tightened up - I got a 0.75" CTC group with 25 gr and better groups with the 34 gr. Still some flyers. The speed went up a bit on the 34's to 812fps for 49.8 fpe. I got more flyers as the evening calmed, I suspect that the earlier wind was helping the 34grs "keep it together" so to speak. If I could bump up the speed on the 34's they might perform much better. Anyway, things are moving in a positive direction - more 25 gr pellets on order now.

One other observation is that the reason the speed is a bit limited, is that the transfer port to the valve in the action is very small - about the size recommended for a 22 cal. This may be why the 25 cal is limited in power and constrained to the 25gr pellets. 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Dan


 
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So just to follow-up on some of YO's questions and the resolution:

  • I purchased this RW HP used from a reputable dealer, there was no notation of any problems or accuracy issues. The dealer certainly did not check out the gun before shipping and was relatively slow on shipping the gun. That may be my last purchase from that shop. When you purchase from a dealer, you expect the gun to be checked out and functioning properly. The screw issue certainty should have been caught by a good technician, even if they are not the warranty shop.
  • I never got a straight answer on the "warranty status" from AoA other than the offer to do a paid cleaning/reseal.

I got some more pellets in today - well half my order, the other half (FX pellets) were floor sweepings - literally floor sweepings. I won't show a picture, as folks might hurl. I trust the vendor will correct the issue, so don't need to go into details here. What was the saying - "If it weren't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all."

Anyway, I shot the fresh JSB .25 cal 25gr and got very good accuracy despite the breezy conditions. One thing that I noticed, is that when the gun went from about 195 bar down to the 180's the accuracy went to pot. I was shooting on this lower end, as my one tank was running low. I think that the lower step on the programming is a bit too hot for the 25gr pellets and needs to be toned down. Though that gives me an idea to try the 34gr pellets at this pressure. 

I think the underlying problems were in order of significance:

  1. Cocking lever was loose, way way loose - ready to fall out loose. That caused the pellets not to seat properly and the probe to be off-center
  2. My "unfounded" expectation that the "HP" version would shoot 34gr pellets at a decent speed (not 950 fps, but at least 865fps). I should have dome more research.
  3. The throat is cut very poorly with a ridge, sharp corners and off-center, and not set up to accommodate the longer MK1 34gr pellets. The gun really is setup for 25gr (see problem #2).
  4. The programming needs to be tuned to the 25gr pellets better to avoid over-speeding the pellets or a Heliboard may be a better option (email into the maker for that already)
  5. The trigger screws are loose - they keep changing during the shooting session. Hence my feeling of a hang fire. I need to research this a bit and add some vibratite.
    [/LIST=1]

    So, my lesson learned is to contact the vendor before purchasing (rather than rashly dropping my CC on the line when a deal comes up) and research the gun well in advance of any purchase contemplation.

    I feel that the gun is now performing up to specs. I had a pretty good bench rest score tonight until the gun dropped into the lower tune level.

    Thanks for everyone's input. Sometimes things don't go your way, but patience pays off in the end.

    Dan







 
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Just a quick follow-up tonight. I was excited to hit the backyard range after work tonight after talking to a fellow shooter at lunch and taking some time off this weekend. Unfortunately, the accuracy went south on the Red Wolf HP. I am attributing it to the change to very heavy, heavy moist cold air and the pellet speeds. I believe that the speed is probably at the heart of my problems. I tethered to my tank tonight, since I was running low on air - so I can't blame the programming steps, as I was at 211 to 216bar through the whole shooting session (lots of pellets sprayed down-range):

JSB Kings (unsized) were going

  • High:930 to 940 fps (too fast) (935 fps pretty steady sized, but some 920's),
  • Medium: 820 to 830 fps (too slow),
  • Low: 740 - 750 fps

JSB Heavies MK2:

  • High (unsized):810 to 828 fps (too slow),

JSB Heavies MK1:

  • High (sized):800-ish fps (way too slow)

The sizing actually slowed down the Kings slightly - hence why they "appeared" to shoot better. I would get great groups (one hole even for 3 shots) then 2 flyers of about 2". Sizing was no real help for the Heavies, as they need more speed to stabilize for long yardage.

I am not sure if the gun was previously "tuned", but the current speeds really do not facilitate accuracy in the current setup. Unfortunately, it goes into the safe until the Heliboard arrives in a couple of weeks. We'll see how the Impact 30 does in the coming weekend - I need to get it tuned up and shot in. I have more confidence in it at the moment.

Dan


 
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So, I wanted to report back on my continued struggles with the Red Wolf. 



I ordered the Heliboard on the 16th (shipped on the 19th) and it arrived on the 29th - awesome quick coming from Greece! The Heliboard is an amazing upgrade to the Red Wolf! Installation was very simple, my hardest problem was removing the red jumper wire from main connector (I probably can't re-connect this one after removal). I was careful to have the rifle battery disconnected for a couple of days in advance of the board installation. There was tons of dielectric grease on the connectors for some reason. 



Anyway, I found the Heliboard a joy to shoot - I could really set and adjust speeds (with lowering the voltage) and really narrow down the speed. I got the JSB Kings at 870 fps and JSB Heavies at 865 fps (could be up 930 fps). Wow - just so easy to use. One downside, though, is it fires regardless of whether it was "cocked" - really have to remember to turn the gun off with the safety often. Rifle is not safe unless off.



Despite being able to super duper easy to tune the rifle to "perfect speeds" - the rifle remains with very poor accuracy - a "dog" so to speak. The best accuracy I could get was 2" with JSB Kings at 75 yards. The JSB Heavies visibly spiraled, with several not even hitting paper. I tried many extra steps (each step with an accuracy check): polishing the throat more to remove the sharp step into the rifling, cleaned the barrel, removed the shroud and front stripper, and re-adjusted velocities. All to no avail - each of these steps did not yield ANY improvement in accuracy. BTW the thread is very odd on the barrel 14mm x 1 - none of my moderators fit. The rifle was not as loud as I would have expected without the shroud.



So, I sent a service ticket to Daystate explaining my problems, the store I bought it from, and asking simply for a replacement barrel. Hopefully, I will hear back from Daystate soon.
 
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So, I wanted to report back on my continued struggles with the Red Wolf. 



I ordered the Heliboard on the 16th (shipped on the 19th) and it arrived on the 29th - awesome quick coming from Greece! The Heliboard is an amazing upgrade to the Red Wolf! Installation was very simple, my hardest problem was removing the red jumper wire from main connector (I probably can't re-connect this one after removal). I was careful to have the rifle battery disconnected for a couple of days in advance of the board installation. There was tons of dielectric grease on the connectors for some reason. 



Anyway, I found the Heliboard a joy to shoot - I could really set and adjust speeds (with lowering the voltage) and really narrow down the speed. I got the JSB Kings at 870 fps and JSB Heavies at 865 fps (could be up 930 fps). Wow - just so easy to use. One downside, though, is it fires regardless of whether it was "cocked" - really have to remember to turn the gun off with the safety often. Rifle is not safe unless off.



Despite being able to super duper easy to tune the rifle to "perfect speeds" - the rifle remains with very poor accuracy - a "dog" so to speak. The best accuracy I could get was 2" with JSB Kings at 75 yards. The JSB Heavies visibly spiraled, with several not even hitting paper. I tried many extra steps (each step with an accuracy check): polishing the throat more to remove the sharp step into the rifling, cleaned the barrel, removed the shroud and front stripper, and re-adjusted velocities. All to no avail - each of these steps did not yield ANY improvement in accuracy. BTW the thread is very odd on the barrel 14mm x 1 - none of my moderators fit. The rifle was not as loud as I would have expected without the shroud.



So, I sent a service ticket to Daystate explaining my problems, the store I bought it from, and asking simply for a replacement barrel. Hopefully, I will hear back from Daystate soon.
Click to expand...

Dan

Any update on replacement barrel?
 
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So a brief update. Robert Buchanan (Precision Airgun Distribution) reached out to me a few weeks ago and offered to have his folks at AoA take a look at the rifle, provided I pay for shipping. That is a very kind and generous offer that reflects very well on AOA! I took them up on the offer and got a RMA after talking to Rich at AoA. I shipped the rifle out just before Labor Day and they received it two weeks ago. I did not hear from them when it arrived, but I wrote a detailed letter explaining the problem. Today, I received a shipping notice that the rifle was on it's way back to me by mid next week. What a quick turn around time - just under two weeks in their hands (excluding shipping time)!

Just prior to getting the offer, I pushed a few more pellets down the bore. There was a visible imprint of the rifling lands, but nothing between them, even after going through the choke. The barrel was highly polished. I suspect that the barrel was a bit too open, allowing the pellets to get slightly cocked during loading or travel down the barrel. If I speed up the pellets to over 950, the groups tightened up on the 25 gr pellets, possibly due to spin stabilization.

So, I am looking forward to receiving it back and trying it out next week. I will report out on the performance, once i get it setup. Maybe I have time to sign up for the Extreme Benchrest 9.5

Again, I would like to thank AoA for the wonderful offer of service on the rifle and the quick turn around time. 

Dan
 
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So great news! I received my Red Wolf back from AoA last Thursday. They replaced the barrel, along with tuned the factory stock board up to a maximum 850 fps for the JSB King Heavies (.25 cal 34 gr). Awesome work! They could not test for accuracy without the stock and single shot tray/magazine according to the paperwork, but the new barrel seems to be the key. I ran a couple of manual pellets pushed through to check the rifling and noted much deeper/better engagement on the rifling. I did note that the JSB Kings had a better head engagement than the Heavies - maybe they have a larger head size. 

I was able to get out after dark tonight and shoot one fill through it with just the heavies. After settling in, I was getting about 0.75" at 75 yards with a slight breeze with the Heavies at 863fps (5-shot groups at #16, 18, and 20, circles are 1.25" at outer edge). I need to fine tune things a bit more when there is light out and I can shoot more than 1 fill. I fell off the reg after 35 shots due to the cold temps and the initial higher power level. 

So, I would say success - problem solved thanks to AOA! 

2020-10-05 RedWolf Heavies.1601953270.JPG

 
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So great news! I received my Red Wolf back from AoA last Thursday. They replaced the barrel, along with tuned the factory stock board up to a maximum 850 fps for the JSB King Heavies (.25 cal 34 gr). Awesome work! They could not test for accuracy without the stock and single shot tray/magazine according to the paperwork, but the new barrel seems to be the key. I ran a couple of manual pellets pushed through to check the rifling and noted much deeper/better engagement on the rifling. I did note that the JSB Kings had a better head engagement than the Heavies - maybe they have a larger head size. 

I was able to get out after dark tonight and shoot one fill through it with just the heavies. After settling in, I was getting about 0.75" at 75 yards with a slight breeze with the Heavies at 863fps (5-shot groups at #16, 18, and 20, circles are 1.25" at outer edge). I need to fine tune things a bit more when there is light out and I can shoot more than 1 fill. I fell off the reg after 35 shots due to the cold temps and the initial higher power level. 

So, I would say success - problem solved thanks to AOA! 

2020-10-05 RedWolf Heavies.1601953270.JPG
Click to expand...

That's great news, took a while but happy to hear you got it sorted. 👍 Nice work AOA and Robert.
 
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