Dang Franklink. .....! Do you ever sleep?
Fun day yesterday and some really good shooting on your part !
Bob
Fun day yesterday and some really good shooting on your part !
Bob
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Red Wolf Standard with G2 board
- Thread starter Franklink
- Start date
I can't sleep when something like that is on my mind, so it needed figured out, even if it was the middle of the night.
Had lots of fun shooting with you guys yesterday. That switching wind sure makes it a challenge. You and Steve made plenty of impressive shots yourselves.
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Field Target!
Alright, it sounds like my club is going to try to have a match on the 23rd. That means I better get serious about FT with the RW, in case I decide to make that match. I've been having so much fun shooting with various projectiles at each of the power levels, that I'm not at the level of comfort that I'd like to be, this close to a potential match. So, that means lots of sitting on a bum bag in the next week or so, basically all my spare time for shooting needs to be with my rear-end on that bag. I was able to do so for around 90 minutes tonight and I've got impressive things from that shooting session to report on.
First off, I'm still not 100% sure on the pellet that I'm using. I've been working with 2 tins of JSB 14.35 that I bought a couple years ago, and those had been showing pretty good accuracy during the chronographing/programming. 2 tins isn't enough to work up, practice, and compete with in FT, so I ordered up a sleeve from AOA. They got here some time in the last week. ArzRover also came good on his promise of some vintage Crosman Premiers from the good ole days when they were incredibly consistent. Those CP's did REALLY well on a 50 yard Know Your Limits target on Weds when we were shooting for fun. For those unfamiliar. the KYL targets are part of the .22 rimfire tactical game, and look like this:
The smallest is 1/4inch I believe. Start at the biggest and work your way down. I think in the official rimfire comps you can stop when you think you've reached your limit and take those points, or keep shooting, but a miss loses all the points. Well, with the initial CP testing, I got all of them with 2 extra shots (and I think the smallest one the pellet hit about 1/2 inch up the stem). Conclusion: the CP's seemed to be mighty good on Weds on the KYL.
Edosan's current post about the different skirt profile of the 25.39gr Redesigns reminded me that I better make sure the new sleeve of JSB 14.35gr is the same as those 2 old tins that I've had. Nope, they're not. So, I've got three pellets now to decide from for FT. Old 14.35s, new 14.35s and the CPs. Here are what they look like (Old on left, New in the middle, and CPs on the right):
More shallow skirt depth on the new ones, also differences in outer rim thickness and the length of the main angle from skirt rim to where it dives into the deepest portion of the skirt. Enough different that I'd like to segregate them out, especially for competition. (Asked my kiddos about what they had in their sticker stash so that I could positively identify those 5 tins from the new sleeve. They came up with some Minion stickers, so the tins in future review pics with a Minion sticker are the New 14.35).
Not much difference in outer appearance, maybe a little bit different skirt angle and waist circumference between the old and new 14.35s.
That all leads up to the testing that I did tonight to answer the following question: which one is the most accurate (basically which one is getting used in competition and will therefore be used to map out all my impact points from 10-55 yards)?
I devised the following little comparison...
Two row of three orange stickers. The stickers are big enough at this distance to be gimmes, but I wanted to shoot a pretty large count group and the middle gets torn out pretty quick doing that. Then it's hard to know where the aimpoint is. The orange stickers have crosshairs so that the center can be lined up with for quite awhile after the middle is shot out (ended up being too unsteady for this to matter much but anyway). One row of stickers shot at at 30 yards, the other at 55 yards. Five shots at each target with each pellet at each distance, rotate through 4 times for a group size of 20 shots (reasoning being to get an average wind effect over all three groups). All the 30 yard targets shot first, then move it back to 55 and repeat.
(20 shot groups if the above paragraph doesn't make sense to you)
And all of that from a bumbag.
Top row = 55 yards. Bottom row = 30 yards. Two left stickers = old JSB. Middle two stickers = new JSB. Right two stickers = CP.
(Sorry about the crappy lighting.)
After that I decided I better weigh a small sample to answer my curiosity about consistency between them all.
Old 14.35s - 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.3, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4,14.5, 14.4
New 14.35s - 14.5, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.3, 14.5, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.5
CPs - 14.3, 14.4, 14.4, 14.5, 14.4, 14.4, 14.1, 14.2, 14.5, 14.3
I only weighed ten of each. I hate weighing pellets, and even for FT comp, this is usually the extent of my weighing. I'll sometimes do a small sample of a new tin of pellets like this just to make sure they're fairly consistent. There was a 14.1 peewee in the CP's but overall plenty consistent (Many will disagree here but FT is not really a precision game. It's a consistency game, and I'm talking about consistency of the shooter. My general approach is that it is a better use of time to shoot the gun, A LOT, from the position you'll be using for FT. A long time ago, while watching the crosshairs dance around, I decided that the human part of the equation is a lot bigger factor than a pellet being off by a couple grains. That crosshair movement, whether due to heart rate, or breathing or whatever, is way more influential on where the pellet is going than a slightly over or underweight pellet. Of course I mostly shoot at monthly club matches, and I'm sure I've missed a few points from non-perfect pellets, but I still feel like more time spent shooting the gun is a better use of my time than weighing and sorting pellets.)
Thoughts
These were shot pretty late this evening, with the setting sun at my back. That lighting situation allowed me to see most of the pellets in flight. Let me tell you, no wobble, no spiral, no what-the-H-was-wrong-with-that-pellet. EVERY single one of the shots I took tonight, with all three pellets, flew as perfectly straight as any pellet can fly. It was beautiful.
Impact points were quite similar for all three. I mentioned a while back that all the impact points are vertical, for each of the projectiles from each of the power levels, there's still an upcoming report on that, but it is simply convenient when various pellets at various speeds hit in a vertical line (vs hitting off to the left and right like they usually do when swapping to a different power level or pellet). If anything, the new JSB might hit 2 or 3 clicks (1/8moa) high at 30 yards, the other two seemed to be right on though. All three needed about 45 clicks at 55 yards. I'll get that pinned down a little better, but initially I'm thinking they've all got a pretty similar BC, otherwise I'd have different vertical impact points.
At the beginning of the shooting session I took the chrono out at distance to try to get an ACTUAL BC and compare them for these 3 pellets, but the sun was already down too far to get readings. I'll probably figure out the BCs, just cuz I'm curious.
I like to take my shots with the scope at 20x, I've just found that I'm more accurate like this. Looking through a scope, I've never been able to get a feel for how big a group is. Only after I've walked up to it, and SEEN it up close and personal, do I realize how big or small it is. I thought I had some pretty decent groups there at 30 yards, but didnt realize just how good that New JSB target in the middle is, until I walked out to move it to 55 yards. This is a close-up of the same picture posted above.
That bottom row middle target has 20 shots, taken from a bumbag, UNDER A DIME! Yes, it's only at 30 yards, but still, this was NOT taken from a bench. It actually measured out to 0.465 inches. That's 20 shots under half an inch, from an Open class field target position. A 1/2 inch killzone at 30 yards is a Troyer 60......and the gun put 20 shots into less than 0.5inches. WHOA!!! The other two groups are also quite good, 0.8 inches or so.
So, I get it placed at 55 yards, walk back, still trying to wrap my head around how good it shot at 30.....Take my first 5 shots with the CPs and I just had to walk back out and take a pic of the first 5 from the CP's at 55 yards before I shot the other 15 at each sticker.
Yep, they're all in the same hole (not hole in hole Centercut). It is the coolest feeling to sit on a bumbag and watch all five (or more if you're a really lucky son of a gun) pellets arch up and down in a perfectly straight line, and drop into a shared hole like this. It instills just a slight bit of confidence in a gun. Sarcasm there, it instills A TON of confidence in what a gun is capable of!
There are some "flyers" not in the main group there at 55 yards. Every single one of those was my fault. I was getting pretty shaky there at the end and most of those wayward shots were taken on the last round of 5 shots at each 55 yard orange circle. I'd already shot 60 or 80 shots before I started the page I shared here. So I was at least 200 shots into my first serious bumbag session for quite a while. My shooting technique was suffering pretty bad there at the end. (also cool to shoot that much without needing a refill, the RW at 20fpe is awesome for shot count and long FT practice sessions like this)
So which pellet? Of these three tested tonight, all three of them are good enough to shoot a very respectable FT match score. I could not definitively say that one did better than the rest, mostly because the misses were on me, not the gun. Some of the groups are better, but only because I was able to avoid a bad trigger break during that group. I'm not a good enough shooter, or at least wasn't tonight, to see an obvious difference. I'm kinda leaning towards the new JSB, just because I've got most of 5 tins still.
When I was walking the traps back in for the night, I had the thought (and I really hate to use the hyperbole cliche) that this RW is up there with the more (and quite possibly the MOST) accurate airguns that I've had the pleasure to shoot. I would not be surprised if this gun would put pellet after pellet after pellet into the same 1/4 inch hole at 55 yards, if shot from a vise in favorable wind conditions. And it would do that with the 14.35s at 20fpe, or the 15.89s, or the 18.1s at 29fpe, or the 25.39s at 42fpe. The only pellet I've found that I haven't been impressed with is the JSB 13.43, or at least the current batch I have on hand. There are not many airguns capable of doing that, at least not that I've shot or seen shot. But I do believe this one is capable of it.
My Veteran is a .22 and setup for 20fpe, and I've shot it a lot! I think I'm 14 or so tins through that thing now. So I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on what light .22 pellets do around 20fpe. I was shooting in 8-10mph winds today and I'm amazed at how much less windage is necessary for the 20fpe projectiles from the Red Wolf when compared to how much is needed for 20fpe projectiles from the Veteran. I came across a British term during the BSA review, the claim was that it "takes less wind," and basically is the concept of a certain barrel/pellet combo doing better in the wind than it should. Well, I may be singing a different tune on a more windy day, but from what I saw with this RW this evening, it certainly "takes less wind!"
I am absolutely loving the overall length of the RW with the Donny Tatsu on there. My main FT gun is a long beast, with a long moderator on it. Carrying the main FT gun through doorways (going from tank area to shooting area) and/or shooting it, feels like handling a broom. This RW is just about perfect in length. It's long enough to give that stability that comes with rifles, but not so long that it's a nuisance. I snapped these pics this evening, when thinking about how pleasant the RW length is:
Nothing beats the 24inch Veteran for overall length, but that shortness makes it hard to shoot too. The other gun is a Brocock Concept with a Rocker1 moderator. The RW is shorter than the Brocock, and this particular Brocock has always had that nice compact rifle feel. I'm really liking the Red Wolf length for a general/multi-use gun.
(And how about Bobby coming up with a sealed box of pristine Die #1 Crosman Premiers from 1999! Really good pellets, they dang sure don't make them like they used to. The old CPs from that time-frame have a legendary reputation, at least amongst the FT shooters that were active at the time. I felt like I was being handed a family heirloom. And the worst part, I pulled the lid off and spilled them across the shooting bench on Weds! Luckily, only a couple hit the ground, and they're that harder Crosman alloy so they don't appear to have been damaged by my carelessness. Thank you for sharing some airgun gold from your stash!!!)
Alright, it sounds like my club is going to try to have a match on the 23rd. That means I better get serious about FT with the RW, in case I decide to make that match. I've been having so much fun shooting with various projectiles at each of the power levels, that I'm not at the level of comfort that I'd like to be, this close to a potential match. So, that means lots of sitting on a bum bag in the next week or so, basically all my spare time for shooting needs to be with my rear-end on that bag. I was able to do so for around 90 minutes tonight and I've got impressive things from that shooting session to report on.
First off, I'm still not 100% sure on the pellet that I'm using. I've been working with 2 tins of JSB 14.35 that I bought a couple years ago, and those had been showing pretty good accuracy during the chronographing/programming. 2 tins isn't enough to work up, practice, and compete with in FT, so I ordered up a sleeve from AOA. They got here some time in the last week. ArzRover also came good on his promise of some vintage Crosman Premiers from the good ole days when they were incredibly consistent. Those CP's did REALLY well on a 50 yard Know Your Limits target on Weds when we were shooting for fun. For those unfamiliar. the KYL targets are part of the .22 rimfire tactical game, and look like this:
The smallest is 1/4inch I believe. Start at the biggest and work your way down. I think in the official rimfire comps you can stop when you think you've reached your limit and take those points, or keep shooting, but a miss loses all the points. Well, with the initial CP testing, I got all of them with 2 extra shots (and I think the smallest one the pellet hit about 1/2 inch up the stem). Conclusion: the CP's seemed to be mighty good on Weds on the KYL.
Edosan's current post about the different skirt profile of the 25.39gr Redesigns reminded me that I better make sure the new sleeve of JSB 14.35gr is the same as those 2 old tins that I've had. Nope, they're not. So, I've got three pellets now to decide from for FT. Old 14.35s, new 14.35s and the CPs. Here are what they look like (Old on left, New in the middle, and CPs on the right):
More shallow skirt depth on the new ones, also differences in outer rim thickness and the length of the main angle from skirt rim to where it dives into the deepest portion of the skirt. Enough different that I'd like to segregate them out, especially for competition. (Asked my kiddos about what they had in their sticker stash so that I could positively identify those 5 tins from the new sleeve. They came up with some Minion stickers, so the tins in future review pics with a Minion sticker are the New 14.35).
Not much difference in outer appearance, maybe a little bit different skirt angle and waist circumference between the old and new 14.35s.
That all leads up to the testing that I did tonight to answer the following question: which one is the most accurate (basically which one is getting used in competition and will therefore be used to map out all my impact points from 10-55 yards)?
I devised the following little comparison...
Two row of three orange stickers. The stickers are big enough at this distance to be gimmes, but I wanted to shoot a pretty large count group and the middle gets torn out pretty quick doing that. Then it's hard to know where the aimpoint is. The orange stickers have crosshairs so that the center can be lined up with for quite awhile after the middle is shot out (ended up being too unsteady for this to matter much but anyway). One row of stickers shot at at 30 yards, the other at 55 yards. Five shots at each target with each pellet at each distance, rotate through 4 times for a group size of 20 shots (reasoning being to get an average wind effect over all three groups). All the 30 yard targets shot first, then move it back to 55 and repeat.
(20 shot groups if the above paragraph doesn't make sense to you)
And all of that from a bumbag.
Top row = 55 yards. Bottom row = 30 yards. Two left stickers = old JSB. Middle two stickers = new JSB. Right two stickers = CP.
(Sorry about the crappy lighting.)
After that I decided I better weigh a small sample to answer my curiosity about consistency between them all.
Old 14.35s - 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.3, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4,14.5, 14.4
New 14.35s - 14.5, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.3, 14.5, 14.4, 14.4, 14.4, 14.5
CPs - 14.3, 14.4, 14.4, 14.5, 14.4, 14.4, 14.1, 14.2, 14.5, 14.3
I only weighed ten of each. I hate weighing pellets, and even for FT comp, this is usually the extent of my weighing. I'll sometimes do a small sample of a new tin of pellets like this just to make sure they're fairly consistent. There was a 14.1 peewee in the CP's but overall plenty consistent (Many will disagree here but FT is not really a precision game. It's a consistency game, and I'm talking about consistency of the shooter. My general approach is that it is a better use of time to shoot the gun, A LOT, from the position you'll be using for FT. A long time ago, while watching the crosshairs dance around, I decided that the human part of the equation is a lot bigger factor than a pellet being off by a couple grains. That crosshair movement, whether due to heart rate, or breathing or whatever, is way more influential on where the pellet is going than a slightly over or underweight pellet. Of course I mostly shoot at monthly club matches, and I'm sure I've missed a few points from non-perfect pellets, but I still feel like more time spent shooting the gun is a better use of my time than weighing and sorting pellets.)
Thoughts
These were shot pretty late this evening, with the setting sun at my back. That lighting situation allowed me to see most of the pellets in flight. Let me tell you, no wobble, no spiral, no what-the-H-was-wrong-with-that-pellet. EVERY single one of the shots I took tonight, with all three pellets, flew as perfectly straight as any pellet can fly. It was beautiful.
Impact points were quite similar for all three. I mentioned a while back that all the impact points are vertical, for each of the projectiles from each of the power levels, there's still an upcoming report on that, but it is simply convenient when various pellets at various speeds hit in a vertical line (vs hitting off to the left and right like they usually do when swapping to a different power level or pellet). If anything, the new JSB might hit 2 or 3 clicks (1/8moa) high at 30 yards, the other two seemed to be right on though. All three needed about 45 clicks at 55 yards. I'll get that pinned down a little better, but initially I'm thinking they've all got a pretty similar BC, otherwise I'd have different vertical impact points.
At the beginning of the shooting session I took the chrono out at distance to try to get an ACTUAL BC and compare them for these 3 pellets, but the sun was already down too far to get readings. I'll probably figure out the BCs, just cuz I'm curious.
I like to take my shots with the scope at 20x, I've just found that I'm more accurate like this. Looking through a scope, I've never been able to get a feel for how big a group is. Only after I've walked up to it, and SEEN it up close and personal, do I realize how big or small it is. I thought I had some pretty decent groups there at 30 yards, but didnt realize just how good that New JSB target in the middle is, until I walked out to move it to 55 yards. This is a close-up of the same picture posted above.
That bottom row middle target has 20 shots, taken from a bumbag, UNDER A DIME! Yes, it's only at 30 yards, but still, this was NOT taken from a bench. It actually measured out to 0.465 inches. That's 20 shots under half an inch, from an Open class field target position. A 1/2 inch killzone at 30 yards is a Troyer 60......and the gun put 20 shots into less than 0.5inches. WHOA!!! The other two groups are also quite good, 0.8 inches or so.
So, I get it placed at 55 yards, walk back, still trying to wrap my head around how good it shot at 30.....Take my first 5 shots with the CPs and I just had to walk back out and take a pic of the first 5 from the CP's at 55 yards before I shot the other 15 at each sticker.
Yep, they're all in the same hole (not hole in hole Centercut). It is the coolest feeling to sit on a bumbag and watch all five (or more if you're a really lucky son of a gun) pellets arch up and down in a perfectly straight line, and drop into a shared hole like this. It instills just a slight bit of confidence in a gun. Sarcasm there, it instills A TON of confidence in what a gun is capable of!
There are some "flyers" not in the main group there at 55 yards. Every single one of those was my fault. I was getting pretty shaky there at the end and most of those wayward shots were taken on the last round of 5 shots at each 55 yard orange circle. I'd already shot 60 or 80 shots before I started the page I shared here. So I was at least 200 shots into my first serious bumbag session for quite a while. My shooting technique was suffering pretty bad there at the end. (also cool to shoot that much without needing a refill, the RW at 20fpe is awesome for shot count and long FT practice sessions like this)
So which pellet? Of these three tested tonight, all three of them are good enough to shoot a very respectable FT match score. I could not definitively say that one did better than the rest, mostly because the misses were on me, not the gun. Some of the groups are better, but only because I was able to avoid a bad trigger break during that group. I'm not a good enough shooter, or at least wasn't tonight, to see an obvious difference. I'm kinda leaning towards the new JSB, just because I've got most of 5 tins still.
When I was walking the traps back in for the night, I had the thought (and I really hate to use the hyperbole cliche) that this RW is up there with the more (and quite possibly the MOST) accurate airguns that I've had the pleasure to shoot. I would not be surprised if this gun would put pellet after pellet after pellet into the same 1/4 inch hole at 55 yards, if shot from a vise in favorable wind conditions. And it would do that with the 14.35s at 20fpe, or the 15.89s, or the 18.1s at 29fpe, or the 25.39s at 42fpe. The only pellet I've found that I haven't been impressed with is the JSB 13.43, or at least the current batch I have on hand. There are not many airguns capable of doing that, at least not that I've shot or seen shot. But I do believe this one is capable of it.
My Veteran is a .22 and setup for 20fpe, and I've shot it a lot! I think I'm 14 or so tins through that thing now. So I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on what light .22 pellets do around 20fpe. I was shooting in 8-10mph winds today and I'm amazed at how much less windage is necessary for the 20fpe projectiles from the Red Wolf when compared to how much is needed for 20fpe projectiles from the Veteran. I came across a British term during the BSA review, the claim was that it "takes less wind," and basically is the concept of a certain barrel/pellet combo doing better in the wind than it should. Well, I may be singing a different tune on a more windy day, but from what I saw with this RW this evening, it certainly "takes less wind!"
I am absolutely loving the overall length of the RW with the Donny Tatsu on there. My main FT gun is a long beast, with a long moderator on it. Carrying the main FT gun through doorways (going from tank area to shooting area) and/or shooting it, feels like handling a broom. This RW is just about perfect in length. It's long enough to give that stability that comes with rifles, but not so long that it's a nuisance. I snapped these pics this evening, when thinking about how pleasant the RW length is:
Nothing beats the 24inch Veteran for overall length, but that shortness makes it hard to shoot too. The other gun is a Brocock Concept with a Rocker1 moderator. The RW is shorter than the Brocock, and this particular Brocock has always had that nice compact rifle feel. I'm really liking the Red Wolf length for a general/multi-use gun.
(And how about Bobby coming up with a sealed box of pristine Die #1 Crosman Premiers from 1999! Really good pellets, they dang sure don't make them like they used to. The old CPs from that time-frame have a legendary reputation, at least amongst the FT shooters that were active at the time. I felt like I was being handed a family heirloom. And the worst part, I pulled the lid off and spilled them across the shooting bench on Weds! Luckily, only a couple hit the ground, and they're that harder Crosman alloy so they don't appear to have been damaged by my carelessness. Thank you for sharing some airgun gold from your stash!!!)
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Franklink, I have some .177 10.5 Cp’s Die-6?, from Who knows when? They shot the best of any pellet ever through both my Raw’s 2 thing’s -1-only had 1250 (1-box) -2- they would throw 1 out of every 5 shot group!, there is so much flashing residue inside the skirts it’s unbelievable!!! I also had some that said Die-M, no where near as good!!! I want to add Die-M will be going thru the RWhp next
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Very similar story here with some of the .177Crosman Heavies. The Brocock in the pic above LOVED a box that I bought around 2014, but hates the newer ones that I've tried. Would sure be nice if Crosman could put out some decent ones again like they used to do.
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If they're the first Die 6, they were made in mid 2000. There was a Die 6 reissue around 2014. The first Die 6 were second only to the fabled Die 2s. You DID need to clean any of the Premiers though. The gunk on them was/is terrible. Second Die 6 was less than 50% good pellets for me, and those weren't very impressive.
For Franklink's Premiers. .. they are 22 cal, Die 1... from 1999, I think. They really should be cleaned and some sort of lube applied , but his test protocol is right from the tin.
Wish Crosman still cared about the quality. The design is still my favorite but the expense and poor quality make others a better choice. The 20 cal Premiers I have are the same vintage and shoot quite well, even at 100 yds with a couple of my Korean rifles. 22s are a little stubby so the sectional density isn't there but it would be really interesting to see a 21 to 25 grain in 22 with thst design .
Fun stuff !
Bob
For Franklink's Premiers. .. they are 22 cal, Die 1... from 1999, I think. They really should be cleaned and some sort of lube applied , but his test protocol is right from the tin.
Wish Crosman still cared about the quality. The design is still my favorite but the expense and poor quality make others a better choice. The 20 cal Premiers I have are the same vintage and shoot quite well, even at 100 yds with a couple of my Korean rifles. 22s are a little stubby so the sectional density isn't there but it would be really interesting to see a 21 to 25 grain in 22 with thst design .
Fun stuff !
Bob
Upvote 0
I really think I bought the Die-6’s for my Hw-97 which was around that time? I know for sure it was before 2014, do you know anything about Die-M? They look the same? Much dirtier and more flashing! But still aren’t to bad... I washed all of these but never waxed them, set in a tin forever, now turned dark grey/oxidation also! Will wash again!!!
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Continued FT workup and bumbag plinking (FT practice)
I finished out the first tin from the sleeve of New JSBs today (the Minion pellets) and did it all from a bumbag. This tin was sealed and unopened about 28hrs ago, so I'm just a bit sore. The first goal was working up the dope for 10-55 yards.
Prelim results are looking like this:
The scope the RW ended up with is a Falcon X50 10-50x60. It ranges extremely well. My only complaint with it is that it's 1/8moa clicks. I'm so used to 1/10mil click values that whole numbers on the turret make my brain go straight to tens, ie 1 on the turret = 10 clicks, 2 on the turret = 20 clicks, etc. But not on this Falcon. 1 on the turret = 8 clicks, 2 on the turret =16 clicks, etc. Just a hard habit to break. I usually only need two columns, one for yards and the other for clicks, but have been using the 3 column method when using this scope on a gun, in hopes of not having a brain fart in the middle of a match.
Those numbers will be verified and vetted throughout the week, and a final version will be printed and used as my dope card for the match next Sat. I'm liking the fact that I don't have any lapped click values. When using the 10.34 at 20fpe in .177 with this scope and a 30 yard zero, I end up with the 10-14 yard click values being more than one revolution of the turret. That's a recipe for disaster by getting off a revolution during a match. I think it's happened to most of us at least once. Anyway, nice that my values don't have anything past one full turret revolution with this RW FT experiment.
My process is different than most, as I like (well I don't "like" to, but I'm usually pleased with the results) to drag pellet traps back and forth and shoot at each of the distances to obtain an ACTUAL vs a ballistics calculator predicted value. I do however, like to compare what I'm seeing to Strelok as I'm going through the various distances. Actual click values set the precedent and are given more weight and the final say, but it's fun to compare to the Strelok program. It usually involves messing around with all the settings to get it to match up as close as possible. The usual suspects are scope height, BC, and zero distance. After all the chrono work prior to this stage, I view fps as a constant not to be toyed with at this point. So, I started out with a BC of 0.028 for these 14.35grain pellets. And the impact points were not even kind of matching up. I played with the zero distance a bit (I think I moved it from 30 to 25 yards) but the Strelok numbers were still way off. I finally got the Strelok numbers to match pretty good, by inputting a BC of 0.04. Seemed way too high for this pellet, vs literature values. So I decided to grab some actual BC values.
BC collection for the <20fpe tune
I've only got one old tired Chrony so I've got to do it the hard way, measure close fps, and then far fps. In an attempt to get a more accurate fps, I like to take the average of 10 shots from near and 10 shots from far. In the case of the RW, the exact pressure given on the screen allows for one more variable to be eliminated by taking the 10 near and the 10 far shots from the same starting tank pressure.
I plugged that 0.044 into Strelok after this, and was rewarded with predicted click values much closer to the actual click values I was seeing when shooting each distance. That is a pretty high BC and I was excited enough to text a friend. His response, "are you sure.....?" I don't think he could quite believe it. We discussed it a bit and I think we both came to the conclusion that my elevation of 5600feet above sea level is likely helping that pellet get downrange without hitting as many air molecules and slowing down as much. Who knows for sure, but I'll take it! Those pellets are smacking the crap out of everything that I'm shooting. They seem to be retaining a fair bit more energy than the usual 20fpe .177 that I'm used to. Bigger cross section to impact too, but the heavier weight is likely helping with retained energy. Fun fun.
Plinking
We lightly discussed how cool that BC is, and I told him I'm much more amazed with the accuracy. For some reason the mental image of shooting matchheads came to mind when I was trying to tell him how accurate this thing is. So, I decided to give it a try.
Couple holes drilled into a piece of scrap 2x4....
Decided on 30 yards, just cuz. Man o man was that a bunch of fun! I started out seeing if I could go six for six, ha ha couldn't do it. I was usually getting around 4/6. Then I decided I'd try to get it on scope cam, which made me decide to get it all in one take (mostly so I wouldn't have to do any editing, but also to help in making it believable....you know, "ah that guy just copied a bunch of clips together to make it look impressive.") That then led to me getting out the magazine for the first time with this gun, so that anybody who watches the vid won't have to sit through me slowing reloading each pellet. Mags are ten shots so the challenge then became, can I knock off all six match heads, at 30 yards, from a bumbag, in the wind, with one magazine. Lol, it took a few takes but here it is:
(couldn't get the reticle and image to be focused at the same time, but it's short so you won't have to suffer through it very long, if you choose to watch.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_sRVfcChnc
Here's the close up of the results from the vid:
Knocked #6 match out of the block, you can see it go flying in the video.
Took eight shots to get all 6 matchheads. I've got to admit that this was my best attempt. But how bout that eh? Shooting MATCHHEADS at 30 yards, pretty consistently too. Damn accurate gun, that's for sure.
Magazine thoughts
After my first experience with the magazine in the above video (and unshown attempts), the Red Wolf mag shooting was awesome. I didn't see any loss of accuracy. And man o man was it fun to work that lever and throw more pellets downrange. The biatholon sidelever, coupled with no hammer spring being compressed during cocking, and the magazine culminate into a VERY enjoyable experience. Think Ruger 10/22 plinking fun, just throwing lead downrange willy nilly, but with the accuracy and precision that comes with a $2400 top of the line airgun and you'll have a pretty good idea of how much fun I had with the matchsticks and the magazine.
I also found out that the mag only loads from the left. I've got a big honking sidewheel on this gun and quickly decided it wouldn't work. But I was wrong as I delighted in the realization that that big honking sidewheel has big honking holes in it, juuuuussstttt big enough for a mag, if the wheel is rotated into alignment.
(I named the file for that image, "lucky maghole." Something about that gave me a good giggle.)
The mag and the single shot tray are also loaded with some pretty serious magnets. They are quite helpful in getting both into their homes.
None of this going on,
cuz the magnet-assisted magazine and sst go right where they're supposed to, quickly and efficiently.
(Steve123 and ArzRover, expect to see some matchhead challenge during the down-time shooting at the summer match camp-outs. This is on par with the fun level of paintball popping.)
I finished out the first tin from the sleeve of New JSBs today (the Minion pellets) and did it all from a bumbag. This tin was sealed and unopened about 28hrs ago, so I'm just a bit sore. The first goal was working up the dope for 10-55 yards.
Prelim results are looking like this:
The scope the RW ended up with is a Falcon X50 10-50x60. It ranges extremely well. My only complaint with it is that it's 1/8moa clicks. I'm so used to 1/10mil click values that whole numbers on the turret make my brain go straight to tens, ie 1 on the turret = 10 clicks, 2 on the turret = 20 clicks, etc. But not on this Falcon. 1 on the turret = 8 clicks, 2 on the turret =16 clicks, etc. Just a hard habit to break. I usually only need two columns, one for yards and the other for clicks, but have been using the 3 column method when using this scope on a gun, in hopes of not having a brain fart in the middle of a match.
Those numbers will be verified and vetted throughout the week, and a final version will be printed and used as my dope card for the match next Sat. I'm liking the fact that I don't have any lapped click values. When using the 10.34 at 20fpe in .177 with this scope and a 30 yard zero, I end up with the 10-14 yard click values being more than one revolution of the turret. That's a recipe for disaster by getting off a revolution during a match. I think it's happened to most of us at least once. Anyway, nice that my values don't have anything past one full turret revolution with this RW FT experiment.
My process is different than most, as I like (well I don't "like" to, but I'm usually pleased with the results) to drag pellet traps back and forth and shoot at each of the distances to obtain an ACTUAL vs a ballistics calculator predicted value. I do however, like to compare what I'm seeing to Strelok as I'm going through the various distances. Actual click values set the precedent and are given more weight and the final say, but it's fun to compare to the Strelok program. It usually involves messing around with all the settings to get it to match up as close as possible. The usual suspects are scope height, BC, and zero distance. After all the chrono work prior to this stage, I view fps as a constant not to be toyed with at this point. So, I started out with a BC of 0.028 for these 14.35grain pellets. And the impact points were not even kind of matching up. I played with the zero distance a bit (I think I moved it from 30 to 25 yards) but the Strelok numbers were still way off. I finally got the Strelok numbers to match pretty good, by inputting a BC of 0.04. Seemed way too high for this pellet, vs literature values. So I decided to grab some actual BC values.
BC collection for the <20fpe tune
I've only got one old tired Chrony so I've got to do it the hard way, measure close fps, and then far fps. In an attempt to get a more accurate fps, I like to take the average of 10 shots from near and 10 shots from far. In the case of the RW, the exact pressure given on the screen allows for one more variable to be eliminated by taking the 10 near and the 10 far shots from the same starting tank pressure.
I plugged that 0.044 into Strelok after this, and was rewarded with predicted click values much closer to the actual click values I was seeing when shooting each distance. That is a pretty high BC and I was excited enough to text a friend. His response, "are you sure.....?" I don't think he could quite believe it. We discussed it a bit and I think we both came to the conclusion that my elevation of 5600feet above sea level is likely helping that pellet get downrange without hitting as many air molecules and slowing down as much. Who knows for sure, but I'll take it! Those pellets are smacking the crap out of everything that I'm shooting. They seem to be retaining a fair bit more energy than the usual 20fpe .177 that I'm used to. Bigger cross section to impact too, but the heavier weight is likely helping with retained energy. Fun fun.
Plinking
We lightly discussed how cool that BC is, and I told him I'm much more amazed with the accuracy. For some reason the mental image of shooting matchheads came to mind when I was trying to tell him how accurate this thing is. So, I decided to give it a try.
Couple holes drilled into a piece of scrap 2x4....
Decided on 30 yards, just cuz. Man o man was that a bunch of fun! I started out seeing if I could go six for six, ha ha couldn't do it. I was usually getting around 4/6. Then I decided I'd try to get it on scope cam, which made me decide to get it all in one take (mostly so I wouldn't have to do any editing, but also to help in making it believable....you know, "ah that guy just copied a bunch of clips together to make it look impressive.") That then led to me getting out the magazine for the first time with this gun, so that anybody who watches the vid won't have to sit through me slowing reloading each pellet. Mags are ten shots so the challenge then became, can I knock off all six match heads, at 30 yards, from a bumbag, in the wind, with one magazine. Lol, it took a few takes but here it is:
(couldn't get the reticle and image to be focused at the same time, but it's short so you won't have to suffer through it very long, if you choose to watch.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_sRVfcChnc
Here's the close up of the results from the vid:
Knocked #6 match out of the block, you can see it go flying in the video.
Took eight shots to get all 6 matchheads. I've got to admit that this was my best attempt. But how bout that eh? Shooting MATCHHEADS at 30 yards, pretty consistently too. Damn accurate gun, that's for sure.
Magazine thoughts
After my first experience with the magazine in the above video (and unshown attempts), the Red Wolf mag shooting was awesome. I didn't see any loss of accuracy. And man o man was it fun to work that lever and throw more pellets downrange. The biatholon sidelever, coupled with no hammer spring being compressed during cocking, and the magazine culminate into a VERY enjoyable experience. Think Ruger 10/22 plinking fun, just throwing lead downrange willy nilly, but with the accuracy and precision that comes with a $2400 top of the line airgun and you'll have a pretty good idea of how much fun I had with the matchsticks and the magazine.
I also found out that the mag only loads from the left. I've got a big honking sidewheel on this gun and quickly decided it wouldn't work. But I was wrong as I delighted in the realization that that big honking sidewheel has big honking holes in it, juuuuussstttt big enough for a mag, if the wheel is rotated into alignment.
(I named the file for that image, "lucky maghole." Something about that gave me a good giggle.)
The mag and the single shot tray are also loaded with some pretty serious magnets. They are quite helpful in getting both into their homes.
None of this going on,
cuz the magnet-assisted magazine and sst go right where they're supposed to, quickly and efficiently.
(Steve123 and ArzRover, expect to see some matchhead challenge during the down-time shooting at the summer match camp-outs. This is on par with the fun level of paintball popping.)
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Yep, everything that I've shot from the Red Wolf thus far has been straight from the tin, no sorting, cleaning, or lubing anything. Really cool when a gun will shoot like this without needing to jump through hoops to make it happen. Curious to see how long accuracy holds without a barrel cleaning, although I'll probably clean it before the match to avoid that happening right in the middle of competition.
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At 20 ft lb, it's likely to go a VERY long time w JSBs before needing cleaning. Wouldn't hurt to check it though... especially if you're throwing in some Hi shooting.
One thing we haven't discussed is the accuracy when changing pellets. My own experience is that it takes a few shots to settle to it's best when changing from H&N to JSB or to Crosman in any order. The lubes they use are much different and it seems that may be the main thing. Yet... you were swapping back and forth with JSB and Premiers apparently without this settling period.... AND getting very good results. I wonder what the results would have been WITH settling groups.
As always though, NICE JOB!
Bob
One thing we haven't discussed is the accuracy when changing pellets. My own experience is that it takes a few shots to settle to it's best when changing from H&N to JSB or to Crosman in any order. The lubes they use are much different and it seems that may be the main thing. Yet... you were swapping back and forth with JSB and Premiers apparently without this settling period.... AND getting very good results. I wonder what the results would have been WITH settling groups.
As always though, NICE JOB!
Bob
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Also, there is a positioning pin on the mag that you pull out and put in the other side to change which side it loads from. It can be tough to pull out but that's what it's for.
Bob
Bob
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I was also surprised to see that the barrel didn't seem to mind switching back and forth from JSBs to the CPs. A difference is likely to be seen if shooting from a bench, but from a bumbag, I sure couldn't see any loss of accuracy due to no-seasoning shots. The barrel seems pretty tolerant of all the switching back and forth from power levels and different pellets (with the one exception being that it dislikes the JSB 13.43gr). Although, it's quite likely that I'm not a skilled enough shooter to witness the difference. From the get-go I've felt like I'm not doing the gun justice.
I was unaware that the pin in the mag could be swapped to allow loading from the right side. Kinda neat that that's an option.
As always, your knowledge, and willingness to share it, is much appreciated.
I was unaware that the pin in the mag could be swapped to allow loading from the right side. Kinda neat that that's an option.
As always, your knowledge, and willingness to share it, is much appreciated.
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That's great shooting! Your wobble zone is small.
I'm not steady enough anymore off a bumbag, even using a harness, but I'm game anyway, it would be a fun challenge. I might be able to squeeze 2-3 out of 6??? Maybe if I cheated I could get 6/6 by using a 75fpe 30 cal because the pellets are so wide - wink. Part of the reason I shoot in Freestyle, mostly me and the wind.....
That's funny that the holes in the sidewheel are just big enough to insert the magazine!
You have to do whatever it takes to get the dope in your app to match actual.....but .04-ish BC doesn't seem correct. I usually have to fudge something to get my app to line up close to perfect, it's usually at 10Y where I'm off a click or two so I just memorize the exact amount.
I'm wondering how many inches the actual drop was at 54Y was??? Did you use a tape to measure that distance or a laser range finder?
It would be interesting to put your scope into a scope tracking jig to see what the actual clicks are and if there is any tracking error.
Do you put your altitude into your ballistic app? Just an example - For my USFT, using SHOOTER ballistic app, from a 30Y zero I'm getting 2.2moa drop at 7300ft but 2.4moa drop at 1600ft DA down at BASF. This correlates when I go down to Phoenix to shoot a match vs up here in Flag and my dope is usually right on once I rezero for down in Phoenix.
Sorry to sidetrack, just thought I'd think out loud, might be a good subject for another thread later on.
I'm not steady enough anymore off a bumbag, even using a harness, but I'm game anyway, it would be a fun challenge. I might be able to squeeze 2-3 out of 6??? Maybe if I cheated I could get 6/6 by using a 75fpe 30 cal because the pellets are so wide - wink. Part of the reason I shoot in Freestyle, mostly me and the wind.....
That's funny that the holes in the sidewheel are just big enough to insert the magazine!
You have to do whatever it takes to get the dope in your app to match actual.....but .04-ish BC doesn't seem correct. I usually have to fudge something to get my app to line up close to perfect, it's usually at 10Y where I'm off a click or two so I just memorize the exact amount.
I'm wondering how many inches the actual drop was at 54Y was??? Did you use a tape to measure that distance or a laser range finder?
It would be interesting to put your scope into a scope tracking jig to see what the actual clicks are and if there is any tracking error.
Do you put your altitude into your ballistic app? Just an example - For my USFT, using SHOOTER ballistic app, from a 30Y zero I'm getting 2.2moa drop at 7300ft but 2.4moa drop at 1600ft DA down at BASF. This correlates when I go down to Phoenix to shoot a match vs up here in Flag and my dope is usually right on once I rezero for down in Phoenix.
Sorry to sidetrack, just thought I'd think out loud, might be a good subject for another thread later on.
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BINGO!, was out shooting today, switching from Cp’s Die-6 Washed & lubed to Die-M washed only to Jsb’s Out of the tin, they were scattering all over The place? I even cleaned between washed Die-6 to Die-M “I made It worse!“ will take all this into account when I get serious about a comparison between all these pellets two different Die’s of Cp’s vs. 10.3 jsb’s
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Thanks Steve, wobble is much worse when I have the scope on 50x, logically. My ability to place them where I want pretty much stops at 20x.
I was thinking the matchstick challenge would be from whatever position we shoot for FT. We might have to make you shoot at an extra 15-20 yards though!
The odds of the holes in the sidewheel being big enough, and properly located, are mighty small.
I did not measure the actual drop in inches but I can. Something like shooting at 30 yards, and then using the same aimpoint at 55 yards should give us a drop. I agree though, the BC seems too high but the #s match so I dunno.
When I first got this scope I mounted it to a 2x6 that I strapped to a big heavy butcher block. I did every test I could think of to gain confidence in it. One of those was using the scope at 20x and following the tracking. Falcon says it's true moa at 20x. In that test, 8 clicks would would put the reticle 1 moa from the little marker dot that I started at, 16 at 2 and on and on. And that was for both vertical and horizontal. I cranked on it quite a bit, both directions, and going back to zero on the turrets put me back at the starting point. It SEEMS to be 1/8moa clicks.
Yes, altitude was entered in Strelok. When this scope was on my USFT all the dope numbers matched, better than any other scope/gun setup actually. I was using 0.031 for a BC in that set-up. That was with JSB 10.34 at 920fps. I too have found a loopier trajectory with other guns when having matches down in PHX. It mostly affects the far shots it seems, I've always gotta give it some extra clicks for the 50 and 55 yard targets to fall.
Hopefully this RW and Bobby's Labradar find themselves at the same place at some point. That'd be the really interesting way to answer how come the BC seems to be so high.
I'll get around to checking BCs of other pellets at the other powers, will also be interesting to see if a higher than typical BC trend emerges there.
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Nomojo... I don't have much experience with the Die M. I bought a fairly large amount of the Die 6 back in 2000 expecting to share but no one wanted some. I have acquired a pack here and there of different lots and none have been close in consistency to those from 2000.
Franklink... I checked my notes and did not get good solid numbers at 50 yds but in the Falcon... the Premiers only dropped 73 fps at 35 yds so would likely be close that 110 fps at 54 yds that you experienced. That's at 3000 ft. The Express were at 81 fps. I checked the numbers on the Chairgun for desktop and the bc was right at .041 for the Express at 3000 ft. Seems too high but if that matches your program, that's all that matters.
I think you're being pretty humble about your wobble zone. That's some pretty good shooting from a bum bag! Guess I need to go start practicing right now
Bob
Franklink... I checked my notes and did not get good solid numbers at 50 yds but in the Falcon... the Premiers only dropped 73 fps at 35 yds so would likely be close that 110 fps at 54 yds that you experienced. That's at 3000 ft. The Express were at 81 fps. I checked the numbers on the Chairgun for desktop and the bc was right at .041 for the Express at 3000 ft. Seems too high but if that matches your program, that's all that matters.
I think you're being pretty humble about your wobble zone. That's some pretty good shooting from a bum bag! Guess I need to go start practicing right now
Bob
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Getting to know the wind at 20fpe (and a little more BC related info)
I had a few minutes to practice/shoot this evening and these were the results. Everything from a bumbag and with a shooting harness.
Nothing too scientific or in-depth tonight, just sharing the process.
The main goal was to gain some familiarity with what the wind does to this pellet at this velocity (JSB 14.35 @785-795fps for anyone just joining in). Being able to get that pellet to go where we want it to when the wind is blowing is often simply a matter of having a feel for how much to hold off for varying degrees and angles of wind, and factoring in distance. For a given pellet/gun/fpe/barrel/etc combination, I like to have a mental scale of how much to hold off. It's not complicated, and a little more abstract than something like a dope chart for how distance effects vertical impacts. It's basically something I get a feel for, getting better at it as I spend more and more time shooting that particular configuration in windy conditions. It also changes day by day. The scale is simple, something like 3/4moa hold off for a big gust from 90 degrees, 1/2moa for a medium gust from 90 degrees, 1/4moa for a small gust from 90degrees. It also changes with differing angles. Most of the time, it's a day-to-day conditions thing. And then there's timing the release of the shot at opportune times, like immediately after a big gust there usually seems to be a VERY brief window to get a shot off without needing much hold-off (My half-baked theory to that is that it's kind of like ocean waves breaking on a beach, the most readily available air molecules just got obliterated on their way past you, gathered into the "gust" and it takes a sec for the next wave/gust to kinda collect itself, sorta like a refresh rate?.) I don't profess to be any sort of expert at shooting in the wind, and it is definitely a skill acquired like most skills are, through effort and practice.
This is an exercise where I open all the windows and doors to the garage so that I can feel those wind currents hitting the hair on my arms and any bare skin. It seems to help get a feel for angle and severity of the wind currents.
The glass half full view for me is that I live in an incredibly windy area, and the best way to get better at shooting in the wind is to do it. a lot.
The NWS station nearest to me recorded 20mph sustained winds with gusts to 26 while I was shooting this evening. We had gusts to 35mph earlier in the day, so the 20-26 was actually the wind laying down for the evening! Tomorrows forecast:
"Tuesday-Sunny, with a high near 77. Breezy, with a south wind 11 to 16 mph increasing to 24 to 29 mph in the afternoon. Winds could gust as high as 47 mph."
So, yeah, it's a little windy here.
Wind was from right to left at my target area.
Here's ten shots at 55 yards:
I was going for the circle just to the left of my main group, so I was giving it more windage than it needed. Seven in a hole smaller than my fingernail, 3 outliers. The lone shot on the right was where I was holding for most shots and the wind died when that one was released. The two lonely holes on the left were big gusts that got pushed more than the rest, one even getting pushed down a bit (at least I didn't feel myself pull that one low).
This one just has some random shots, again at 55 yards.
The series of shots I liked the most here are the 6 circled. Those were six consecutive shots, starting on the far left. You know you've got a pretty accurate gun when it'll do that in the wind at this distance. If you look at the tape measure by my pointer finger you should be able to make out the fact that these little circles are just a bit bigger than 1/4 of an inch and just a hair smaller than 5/16 of an inch.
I need to spend more time practicing in the wind, but initial thoughts are that it doesn't take as much as I would have guessed. I was giving it more than it needed for most of my shots. My assumption was that the bigger .22 would present a bigger profile for the wind to push on than a .177 at 20fpe. At some point with that theory though, is an overlapping grey area of a (seemingly) higher BC with the .22. This is kind of throwing me for a loop, because (as mentioned prior) my 20fpe .22 Veteran is influenced by the wind more than this Red Wolf/14.35 combo seems to be. Based on that, I had some preconceived notions that a .177 @ 20fpe was better in the wind than a .22 @ 20fpe. I'm not sure I've reached a conclusion yet, but it's fun trying to figure it out. In field target circles, the serious guys almost exclusively use .177, so I'm possibly way off base here. Just making assumptions based on what I'm experiencing. We'll all see how they pan out.
Continued BC theorizing (is that even a word? turns out it is, but sure sounds goofy)
Steve123 was curious about the drop at distance in an earlier discussion about the abnormally high BC. So I shot this sequence this evening as well.
That's fifteen shots, all with the aimpoint in the middle of the orange dot. 5 shots were taken with the target at 30 yards and 10 more shots were taken after moving the target back to 55 yards. No hold-offs for wind here. You can see how the wind didn't string out the impact points horizontally at 30 like it did at 55. The two lonely/lower shots from the 10 shot group at 55 where bad trigger releases. That's my heartbeat. You can see it a little in my matchstick shooting video from a few days ago, but my typical FT position/heart rate combination results in a diagonal and upward from left to right "scope wobble" (Steve123s term). So those two lonely shots were taken at the bottom of that heartbeat caused crosshair pattern. Oops.
So, the drop from 30 yards to 55 is 2.5625 inches. I played with Strelok and Chairgun a bit.
Chairgun needed a higher scope height than Strelok for the drop to match actual:
Basically the same info from Strelok in a different format:
The drop in inches doesn't match as well here, but the click values are mighty close to what I worked up a few days ago.
Finally
I've always gotta slip a dime in it seems.
Yeah, those 5 at 30 yards are EASILY covered by a dime. Incredible gun. Just incredible. I've yet to have a shooting session where I didn't end up just sitting there staring at it in amazement. A few days ago I started thinking about how I could rearrange my personal collection of airguns to be able to afford this one and make it my own. I can usually resist buying and over-spending, but this Red Wolf experience is really weakening my resolve.
I had a few minutes to practice/shoot this evening and these were the results. Everything from a bumbag and with a shooting harness.
Nothing too scientific or in-depth tonight, just sharing the process.
The main goal was to gain some familiarity with what the wind does to this pellet at this velocity (JSB 14.35 @785-795fps for anyone just joining in). Being able to get that pellet to go where we want it to when the wind is blowing is often simply a matter of having a feel for how much to hold off for varying degrees and angles of wind, and factoring in distance. For a given pellet/gun/fpe/barrel/etc combination, I like to have a mental scale of how much to hold off. It's not complicated, and a little more abstract than something like a dope chart for how distance effects vertical impacts. It's basically something I get a feel for, getting better at it as I spend more and more time shooting that particular configuration in windy conditions. It also changes day by day. The scale is simple, something like 3/4moa hold off for a big gust from 90 degrees, 1/2moa for a medium gust from 90 degrees, 1/4moa for a small gust from 90degrees. It also changes with differing angles. Most of the time, it's a day-to-day conditions thing. And then there's timing the release of the shot at opportune times, like immediately after a big gust there usually seems to be a VERY brief window to get a shot off without needing much hold-off (My half-baked theory to that is that it's kind of like ocean waves breaking on a beach, the most readily available air molecules just got obliterated on their way past you, gathered into the "gust" and it takes a sec for the next wave/gust to kinda collect itself, sorta like a refresh rate?.) I don't profess to be any sort of expert at shooting in the wind, and it is definitely a skill acquired like most skills are, through effort and practice.
This is an exercise where I open all the windows and doors to the garage so that I can feel those wind currents hitting the hair on my arms and any bare skin. It seems to help get a feel for angle and severity of the wind currents.
The glass half full view for me is that I live in an incredibly windy area, and the best way to get better at shooting in the wind is to do it. a lot.
The NWS station nearest to me recorded 20mph sustained winds with gusts to 26 while I was shooting this evening. We had gusts to 35mph earlier in the day, so the 20-26 was actually the wind laying down for the evening! Tomorrows forecast:
"Tuesday-Sunny, with a high near 77. Breezy, with a south wind 11 to 16 mph increasing to 24 to 29 mph in the afternoon. Winds could gust as high as 47 mph."
So, yeah, it's a little windy here.
Wind was from right to left at my target area.
Here's ten shots at 55 yards:
I was going for the circle just to the left of my main group, so I was giving it more windage than it needed. Seven in a hole smaller than my fingernail, 3 outliers. The lone shot on the right was where I was holding for most shots and the wind died when that one was released. The two lonely holes on the left were big gusts that got pushed more than the rest, one even getting pushed down a bit (at least I didn't feel myself pull that one low).
This one just has some random shots, again at 55 yards.
The series of shots I liked the most here are the 6 circled. Those were six consecutive shots, starting on the far left. You know you've got a pretty accurate gun when it'll do that in the wind at this distance. If you look at the tape measure by my pointer finger you should be able to make out the fact that these little circles are just a bit bigger than 1/4 of an inch and just a hair smaller than 5/16 of an inch.
I need to spend more time practicing in the wind, but initial thoughts are that it doesn't take as much as I would have guessed. I was giving it more than it needed for most of my shots. My assumption was that the bigger .22 would present a bigger profile for the wind to push on than a .177 at 20fpe. At some point with that theory though, is an overlapping grey area of a (seemingly) higher BC with the .22. This is kind of throwing me for a loop, because (as mentioned prior) my 20fpe .22 Veteran is influenced by the wind more than this Red Wolf/14.35 combo seems to be. Based on that, I had some preconceived notions that a .177 @ 20fpe was better in the wind than a .22 @ 20fpe. I'm not sure I've reached a conclusion yet, but it's fun trying to figure it out. In field target circles, the serious guys almost exclusively use .177, so I'm possibly way off base here. Just making assumptions based on what I'm experiencing. We'll all see how they pan out.
Continued BC theorizing (is that even a word? turns out it is, but sure sounds goofy)
Steve123 was curious about the drop at distance in an earlier discussion about the abnormally high BC. So I shot this sequence this evening as well.
That's fifteen shots, all with the aimpoint in the middle of the orange dot. 5 shots were taken with the target at 30 yards and 10 more shots were taken after moving the target back to 55 yards. No hold-offs for wind here. You can see how the wind didn't string out the impact points horizontally at 30 like it did at 55. The two lonely/lower shots from the 10 shot group at 55 where bad trigger releases. That's my heartbeat. You can see it a little in my matchstick shooting video from a few days ago, but my typical FT position/heart rate combination results in a diagonal and upward from left to right "scope wobble" (Steve123s term). So those two lonely shots were taken at the bottom of that heartbeat caused crosshair pattern. Oops.
So, the drop from 30 yards to 55 is 2.5625 inches. I played with Strelok and Chairgun a bit.
Chairgun needed a higher scope height than Strelok for the drop to match actual:
Basically the same info from Strelok in a different format:
The drop in inches doesn't match as well here, but the click values are mighty close to what I worked up a few days ago.
Finally
I've always gotta slip a dime in it seems.
Yeah, those 5 at 30 yards are EASILY covered by a dime. Incredible gun. Just incredible. I've yet to have a shooting session where I didn't end up just sitting there staring at it in amazement. A few days ago I started thinking about how I could rearrange my personal collection of airguns to be able to afford this one and make it my own. I can usually resist buying and over-spending, but this Red Wolf experience is really weakening my resolve.
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Once again ... nice report, Franklink .
I have to ask, though.... is your setup really correct in both? You show .99" for 10 yds in Chairgun and .75" in Strelok. From my experience w big scopes, neither seems enough. Could account for the difference in projected trajectory.
Bob
I have to ask, though.... is your setup really correct in both? You show .99" for 10 yds in Chairgun and .75" in Strelok. From my experience w big scopes, neither seems enough. Could account for the difference in projected trajectory.
Bob
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Ok... have to correct myself here. Looked in my Shooter app at several I've put in. None were over an inch at 10 yds. Just seems like SO much when I'm putting in 84 clicks on my USFT. I ran your info and came up with 9.3 moa at 10 and 4.6 moa at 55.... so it was close to your Chairgun results.
Seems like it should be a very good option for FT, especially as little as it seems to blow in the wind. Now we just need to have a match for you to shoot in.
Bob
Seems like it should be a very good option for FT, especially as little as it seems to blow in the wind. Now we just need to have a match for you to shoot in.
Bob
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I do still need to do some verification work at all the distances. Last night I was mostly getting a feel for the wind, so I only shot at 30 and 55.
You make a good point though about how neither Strelok, Shooter, or Chairgun match EXACTLY to what I was seeing with my initial trajectory mapping exercise. That is partly why I take the approach of actually mapping them out by shooting at paper at all the distances. The other reason is that it's simply good practice.
Case in point: Strelok table I attached last night says vertical correction of 2.91 inches at 55 yards and 5moa (40 clicks). The 5moa/40clicks is what I'm seeing with actual shooting, but the drop in inches is not.
I don't really give much weight to the ballistic calculators. 90% of the time they seem to be close, but not perfect. For me, the ballistic apps are a fun academic exercise, but I much prefer to trust my trajectory mapping by real-world results method, at least for FT.
You make a good point though about how neither Strelok, Shooter, or Chairgun match EXACTLY to what I was seeing with my initial trajectory mapping exercise. That is partly why I take the approach of actually mapping them out by shooting at paper at all the distances. The other reason is that it's simply good practice.
Case in point: Strelok table I attached last night says vertical correction of 2.91 inches at 55 yards and 5moa (40 clicks). The 5moa/40clicks is what I'm seeing with actual shooting, but the drop in inches is not.
I don't really give much weight to the ballistic calculators. 90% of the time they seem to be close, but not perfect. For me, the ballistic apps are a fun academic exercise, but I much prefer to trust my trajectory mapping by real-world results method, at least for FT.
Upvote 0