Other Regulators and higher PSI airguns

[BackStop]

Given that all regulators fail and they do... with the newer guns (Huben K1, etc) that have reservoirs up to 5000psi, how long do you think the present technology of regulators will last having to regulate that high a pressure down to reasonable usable levels?

Just curious and thinking out loud.

I know I have already stopped pumping my Benjamin Fortitude to 3000psi because the regulator is creeping. It creeps much less if I only pump the tube up to ~2600-2700psi.

Yes, that means I do have to pump more often, but the shot consistency is much better, especially that FIRST shot which is critical if you hunt or pest.

This post is only meant to start a conversation, not make a statement one way or the other.

All my best!

Kerry

 

[L.Leon]

I believe it wise and practice ”not” filling to the stated fill level. For example, I fill my SCBAs to 4000 psi as opposed to their rated capacity of 4500 psi. This has extended the useable life of my HPA compressor As I am not straining it for that last 500 psi. Not a scientist, just going off intuition.

 

[BackStop]

I believe it wise and practice ”not” filling to the stated fill level. For example, I fill my SCBAs to 4000 psi as opposed to their rated capacity of 4500 psi. This has extended the useable life of my HPA compressor As I am not straining it for that last 500 psi. Not a scientist, just going off intuition.

I agree. And I think regulators *may* last longer using the same logic. At least until a better PCP regulator is invented. (smile)

Thanks for the reply!

All my best!

Kerry

 

[Jasonmc]

I fill my regulated rifles to whatever it calls for.. if it's 300b I fill it to 300b. If I'm out target shooting or hunting it gets a full fill. Now when I'm done for the day that's a different story. I keep the pressure slightly over reg set point. As I do believe it isn't good on a reg sitting a couple of days or more holding that kind of pressure back.

 

[BackStop]

I fill my regulated rifles to whatever it calls for.. if it's 300b I fill it to 300b. If I'm out target shooting or hunting it gets a full fill. Now when I'm done for the day that's a different story. I keep the pressure slightly over reg set point. As I do believe it isn't good on a reg sitting a couple of days or more holding that kind of pressure back.

Good points! Never did that myself, but that also calls for pumping at times when humidity may be high.

In any case, you definitely get the point. Until better regulators are invented, it will always be a problem with regulators, IMHO.

Thanks for the intuitive reply!

All my best!

Kerry

 

[TYLERHASKINS2]

yep I agree, all regs will fail at some point in their lifespan. that's exactly why on say the fx maverick they have 2 regs so each reg has less air pressure to deal with, with that said, 5k psi is way insane to me...if its 1 reg in a gun that fills to 5k psi, I would give it a year or so is my guess. I don't follow all the new guns but im assuming the one you mentioned is a pretty high power gun so that would help the reg a little bit, but regardless 5k is a lot.

 

[BackStop]

yep I agree, all regs will fail at some point in their lifespan. that's exactly why on say the fx maverick they have 2 regs so each reg has less air pressure to deal with, with that said, 5k psi is way insane to me...if its 1 reg in a gun that fills to 5k psi, I would give it a year or so is my guess. I don't follow all the new guns but im assuming the one you mentioned is a pretty high power gun so that would help the reg a little bit, but regardless 5k is a lot.

And if there are 2 regulators, that simply adds more to fail, IMHO. Even if you have 2 regulators, the first one has to deal with the HIGH pressure.

In any case, IMHO, until regulators are improved, you will need a lot of $$$ to keep them consistent.

Just my humble opinion, but I think a very valid opinion, none the less. (smile)

Thanks for the reply!

All my best!

Kerry

 

[nervoustrig]

The durability / longevity of a regulator seat can be managed by careful consideration of seal material, geometry, and surface quality.

Even the ubiquitous and pedestrian Ninja paintball regulator, with its soft nylon seat, deals with a 2000psi differential reasonably well. So while there will inevitably be both good and bad designs, along with good and bad executions of those designs, it is by no means a crippling or insurmountable problem. And for the tinkerers and DIY folks, there's usually room to improve things with a little attention to the mating surfaces.

 

[BackStop]

The durability / longevity of a regulator seat can be managed by careful consideration of seal material, geometry, and surface quality.

Even the ubiquitous and pedestrian Ninja paintball regulator, with its soft nylon seat, deals with a 2000psi differential reasonably well. So while there will inevitably be both good and bad designs, along with good and bad executions of those designs, it is by no means a crippling or insurmountable problem. And for the tinkerers and DIY folks, there's usually room to improve things with a little attention to the mating surfaces.

And yet, ALL regulators eventually creep/fail. Not all people are able to repair them. Even you repaired my DAR, but in less than 100 pellets, it failed.

Not the regulator, but it leaked and the loading lever would not open up to put in a pellet.

So, don't make it sound so easy to keep a regulator working or an airgun from failing.

Most of us simply don't have that capability. So, I sincerely hope regulators WILL be built better soon. (smile)

All my best!

Kerry

 

[nervoustrig]

True, I suppose I should have simply indulged your negativity and defeatism.

 

[BackStop]

True, I suppose I should have simply indulged your negativity and defeatism.

WOW! I am having a hard time not telling you to go to hell.

You have my phone number, so if you want to argue or discus this, you know how to contact me.

Damn...

All my best... with some reservations... (heavy sigh)

Kerry

 

[Jasonmc]

Good points! Never did that myself, but that also calls for pumping at times when humidity may be high.

In any case, you definitely get the point. Until better regulators are invented, it will always be a problem with regulators, IMHO.

Thanks for the intuitive reply!

All my best!

Kerry

The way I see it regulators are nothing more than a wear item just like the motor oil in your vehicle. There's better stuff out there that last longer but eventually needs changed.(You get what you pay for) Even regulators built with quality materials will wear out. Regs have a very demanding job with high expectations. It is what it is. Mechanical things don't last forever especially in this disposable word. Cheap enough to replace. Beats buying a new rifle.

 

[humbled.ag]

Everything fails eventually. Even your no reg guns blow an oring or a valve seal or a hammer spring breaks or a sear breaks or a tube blows or a pellet gets stuck or............................................get it? Who pissed in your cornflakes to get you back on this reg kick Backstop?

 

[rcs9250]

Belleville washers are pretty amazing springs, but is it possible they aren’t the best spring device for regulators in airguns? They might be the common thing to use because of space constraints in an airgun.
I don’t have any experience or extensive knowledge with tethering but from what I have seen in photos users typically utilize an Aqua Environment (AE) regulator. AE’s and most like them use a typical heavy compression coil spring. Is that because they are better, more predictable through out the pressure range they are seeing. Realizing of course that tether shooters guns still have the internal regulator, it’s just that the internal regulator no longer sees a varying pressure, it only sees a steady pressure. Higher quality oxyacetylene regulators are two stage to help maintain a consistent flame. Scuba also benefitted when two stage regulators were utilized, they allow for easier breathing through the full range of tank pressures.
Of course in airguns, I believe, the regulated pressure we would like to see would have the least pressure variation as possible, two stage I think would help that but as pointed out, it’s another reg to go bad.
Where I worked we made lots of regulators and they were exhaustively tested for useful life and variation throughout the test. I have no experience with the testing, I just saw the labs where they were tested.
Maybe there’s something better than the current design but also thinking that with the current state of technology that manufacturers like FX, Daystate, Thomas and American Air Arms, and Air Arms I’m thinking one of them would have come up with a better design, or are at least developing one.
It would be nice to know if there is a predictable life of the typical airgun regulator. They are easy enough to remove and replace, adjusting is a bit more involved, it’s not like changing a battery in a car or electrical device but it can certainly change the velocity variation a gun may have been seeing by variable pressure.
Anyone that tinkered with handloading ammunition knows that there are a ton of variables that have a dire effect on performance. One batch of gunpowder to the next requires a session with the chronograph to check velocity. Every component can make handloading nerve racking just to obtain ultimate consistency.

 

[JungleShooter]

@rcs9250,

thank you for bringing the thread back to it's stated intention in the OP:

This post is only meant to start a conversation, not make a statement one way or the other.

You had some very interesting comments.


<hr>


Kerry,
I wouldn't go as far as suggesting human excreta in your breakfast bowl — but there seems to be something to what @humbled mentioned.
Thanks for the image, @humbled, you got a chuckle from me.

Who pissed in your cornflakes to get you back on this reg kick, Backstop?

➠
Kerry,
we all have some topic we can't seem to get over, and we get into a rant, or worse.
My own weakness are "traditional looking guns with wood furniture". Don't get me started on this topic! Because I really need to watch it — my strong opinions can (and will!) offend a lot of people. Nobody needs that.

➠ Let's just get back to regulators and the rational and the (sometimes not so rational) personal reasons why we prefer them — or reject them.



Here's where I stand on regulators:
When I started out with PCPs, it was inconceivable to me that I had to monitor a tiny gauge with a measuring scale of about 1/2" — in order to tell my if my shots had the right velocity or not!
So, when I got my first PCPs they where Chinese — but before taking my first shot with them I spent 25% to 40% of their value on replacing the China reg with a Huma. For me(!), that was a lot of money back then....

➠ There was some rational reasoning behind that choice. But also just a lot of personal fear of some foreign liquid in my cereal.


Today, I see things a little more balanced. In hunting, there is something to be said for that first shot consistency of an unregulated gun.
I also feel a lot more confident in tuning an unregulated gun to know exactly what consistency I can expect in which pressure range.

● Today I will purchase my first unregulated gun ever, so yeah, I have definitely changed my own rigid position on regulators....


Cheers,

Matthias

 

[dizzums]

hmm, i see no reason to push the limit of a tanks rating unless its just the end of the world you cant wring the one more mag maxing it out will likely buy you ..

 

[Trucker3573]

Most seem like they would be relatively easy to rebuild when problems did arise ? I think they are like most things in life. There are positives and negatives. In my experience more often than not they do need a settle in period before they really get going so to speak. If anyone has one that absolutely does not then you are lucky in my opinion. However they are so nice after that brief period knowing you have some stability through the whole number of shots you can get. You are correct for hunting really the unregulated gun might be the way to go. If you know your gun you can fill to a specific pressure to completely control the first string of shots. That consistent string will just be smaller. Trade off. Pick your poison. Your logic of staying below the fill pressure seems sound. I think things last longer when you stress them less for sure.

 

[3Crows]

It is not really the pressure but the differential between reservoir pressure and plenum pressure. With one reg the step down is made in one jump, with two as FX has chosen in some models the step down is shared by both such that neither has to deal with the full differential. Be it 5,000 to 3500 or 3500 to 2000, the difference is still only 1500 psi, even if the total difference is 3000 psi.

SCUBA regulators in two stages go from 3000 (or more psi) to ambient in two stages and yet last many years and many breaths without creep of intermediate pressure. This old Scubapro first stage has been reducing pressure from tank pressure to an IP of 130+/- for a decade without service over hundreds of dives. I decided to service it for good measure:





A Scubapro Mark 2 unbalanced first stage really has no service interval but that required by lawyers:

 

[rcs9250]

And for the tinkerers and DIY folks, there's usually room to improve things with a little attention to the mating surfaces.

You might be on to something there. I had a Huma reg for tethering. Never actually used it but did change the factory spring set up to a different pressure range that I anticipated. I toured a belleville washer plant that a high school classmate is president of. As I recall, and I could be wrong, the washers are stamped, then heat treated and then tumbled to remove any heat treat scale or discoloration. Of course there was quality control along the way. The company is very well known for their spring washer quality.
When parts are stamped out, one side has a sharp edge, not necessarily consistent, and one rounded edge. These edges of cour are on both ID and OD. I could see in a stack up when two irregular surfaces are mated it could possibly result in some variation of force, especially as they wear from cycling.
I vaguely recall seeing a video or reading about someone that would lay their springs on a wet stone and give a few strokes to clean up the edges just a bit. Who knows, maybe that’s a good idea.
This thought of course applies to washers that are oriented concave to concave or convex to convex.
Or I might have my head in me arse.

 

[jarmstrong]

I have NOT experienced regulator failure, but I have experienced some creep. They have plastic seats that compress and rebound, so they can creep a little
people who DO NOT understand the basic concept of balancing the power of the hammer to the power of the plenum, They just turn the hammer spring down but fail to lower the reg pressure to match, they are not tuners, they are knob turners
I tune my gun to the max velocity available from said plenum at x bar,, if you tune to just below the knee for the optimum air usage, you can be prone to creep. and first shot slow and low
And regulators with plastic stems is a bad idea and o-rings fail in all positions in an airgun, not just in the regs