Safe(no pass through) vital shot Pellet/FPE real world data on squirrels

[qball]

There has been many threads on what caliber and/or FPE is needed for a humane kill if the tougher vital shots are needed. Of course the answer varies between caliber and pellet choice so maybe we can put together a thread with real life data. 



I'll start with my setup .177 Hades-7FPE at target:

10 grain .177 Hades @600FPS or 8 FPE at muzzle

Down range:

20 yards = 7 FPE

25 yards = 6.5 FPE

30 yards = 6 FPE



I've taken 2 vital shots recently both at 25 yards and both ran out steam within 10-15 seconds and didn't get more than 10 feet away with easy follow up head shots. Both times I recovered the pellet just under the skin so perfect amount of penetration. POI is right behind the shoulder/front leg. Very happy with current setup because I know a headshot will have pass through but have the option to take safe vital shots. I know the .177 hades WILL pass through vital at around 700FPS at muzzle when target is at 25 yards.

This time the recovered pellet has massive expansion and most likely hit a bone with bent skirt indicating tumbling. 

It would be awesome if everyone share real life data on their "sweet spot" in terms of pellet, caliber, at target FPE that will do maximum damage with no pass through/pellet right under the hide. 


Happy safe pesting!!!





AGN user data:

.177 Caliber:

@QBall: .177 JSB Hades @7FPE on impact 

@vmaxpro: .177 RWS 8.3 grain @7FPE on impact



.22 Caliber:

@JimD: .22 H&N Brracuda @12FPE on impact

@JimD: .22 H&N Field Target Trophy @12FPE on impact

 

[vmaxpro]

This rat was around 26 yards. 8.3 rws superdome. Around 11fpe muzzle prob 8 at impact. Complete pass through and dropped like a stone. This was a LARGE rat too. Ive since dialed it back to 8fpe and havent seen a pass through yet from 5-25 yards. 

 

[qball]

This rat was around 26 yards. 8.3 rws superdome. Around 11fpe muzzle prob 8 at impact. Complete pass through and dropped like a stone. This was a LARGE rat too. Ive since dialed it back to 8fpe and havent seen a pass through yet from 5-25 yards. 

nice!!! Sounds like for 177 pellets 7 FPE is the sweet spot for the small critters. 

 

[fdales17]

.177 hades out of my fortitude is my preferred pesting set up for rat squirrel and rabbit. Fast humane and very few pass throughs

 

[JimD]

My Prod usually did not penetrate through squirrels when it was tuned to 12-14 fpe. (I hung a dead one by the tail and shot it with a variety of pellets at 25 yards to test) I use domed pellets or the equivalent (Crosman hollow points do not expand at Prod velocity). But I want pass through, I don't see why anybody would not. The squirrels drop much more quickly - like on the spot - now that it is tuned to 18 fpe. It still will not shoot through on a diagonal shot through the body but on a brain shot or a side shot through the vitals I get entrance and exit holes.

With my 50 fpe 25 caliber Avenger I worry about remaining energy after pass through but not with the Prod. The pellet will be moving so slowly it won't go far or damage things in it's path. In other words, I think something on the order of 20 fpe at the muzzle, 14-15 at impact is just right for a 22 on squirrels. It will shoot through but only barely and I like having entrance and exit holes because the squirrel dies very quickly. If I wanted to shoot them at 40 or 50 yards I would want a bit more at the muzzle to get to 14-15 at impact.

I am not trying to criticize others who get good results with less, just saying what works for me. Brain shots definitely take less. But I shot one in the shoulder with a low (about 5fpe) velocity 177 and it did not make it through the shoulder and it took a long time for the squirrel to die. So I will not do that again. Not sure what the right energy is for a 177 but my conclusion is 5 was not enough. Might have worked if I had hit the brain, however. I've seen enough videos to know 12 is enough for short range brain shots.

 

[qball]

@jimd: this is more less a personal preference and for safety reasons. Also I don’t see why a squirrel would die faster with a hole in the skin or not, if the pellet only penetrated half way then I would agree with you but my goal is to have just enough energy for full penetration/pass through the vital but not enough to exit the last layer of the skin/hide. They drop very quick even with lowly 177 pellets, my .25 setup with way more power with very large exit holes weren’t really killing the squirrels any fast if any faster than my vital shots with .177. 


I think many like me who live in more dense areas would want to have the confidence knowing the pellet won’t exit and fly somewhere. Again this is for when headshot isn’t available or at an upward angle where even a slow pellet could fly into neighbor’s yard even with a back stop which could cause issue. I also don’t want lead pellets hidden all over my yard since we grow some fruits and vegetables in the little space we have. 


Then there is that challenge of getting my power and pellet combo dialed just right so it’s a certain humane kill even with vital shots but just barely. Having pellet trapped under the skin is a satisfying result for me because I got it just right. I have many guns or even the same guns simply turn up the power wheel that can blow a big hole in the squirrel but what challenge is that? BTW I was killing them with .25 hades blowing massive holes in the squirrels but I felt like it was an execution more than a hunt. 

 

[lbc_PSI]

With a .22 JSB 18.1@890fps, (~26.9FPE@19yards). With a shot to the top of the skull..CA ground squirrel..facing me..the pellet traversed the skull, neck(probably severed the spine), heart/lung, gut, and exited the butt..and had enough energy remaining to embed itself half-way in a 4"x6" piece of redwood backstop.. The shot result was DRT...anchored..a single leg kick rolled him on his back..no tail-o-copter.

So probably a bit much for a "no pass-thru"..using JSB shaped pellets.

2 years ago, I made a similar shot .30 PolyMag 44.75@885 (~67.1FPE@19yards) and the entire 67.1 FPE was expended inside the squirrel..no exit..

Pellet shape/construction plays a huge part in energy dump.

 

[JimD]

I agree that pellet shape can make a difference. I tested for penetration and expansion in wet paper. There was a famous gun writer/big game guide that wrote that penetration in wet paper is a good simulation of penetration in animal muscle tissue. In an event it is cheap and easy enough to do. I shot it at 25 yards. With my little Prod, I get maximum penetration from domed pellets. H&N Barracudas, Crosman domed, or H&N FTT (the gun's favorite). That was also confirmed in tests on a dead squirrel. The only pellet that expanded noticably was a Metal Mag. It did not penetrate as far despite being heavier than the FTT or Crosman pellets. But I think it went far enough for a clean kill. If I really did not want too much penetration, I guess I would use them on squirrels, my Prod shoots them accurately.

With respect to the benefits of pass through, I decided I wanted it after having 2 squirrels run out of my back yard into a neighbors yard after what I am pretty sure were solid hits to the vitals. I did not recover them so I don't really know exactly where they were hit or how much penetration I got. I hung a dead one and shot it with the same tune (at 25 yards) and the FTT and Barracuda pellets were stuck in the skin on the outside of the squirrel - so they passed through the chest. That was about 14 fpe at the muzzle. Increasing to 18 gets me pass through - but likely not by very much. I have had zero run offs in the last 8 or 9 squirrels with that tune. Could be some luck but I like the results. Several times I have smashed a front shoulder but still got enough penetration to drop the squirrel on the spot. I like having a little margin because my shot placements are not perfect. In the direction I shoot I have at least 200 yards before I get to anybody elses yard. In between is a lake.

Our situations are all different and as long as we get the results we want it makes sense to do what works.

 

[lbc_PSI]

I hung a dead one and shot it with the same tune (at 25 yards) and the FTT and Barracuda pellets were stuck in the skin on the outside of the squirrel – so they passed through the chest. That was about 14 fpe at the muzzle. Increasing to 18 gets me pass through – but likely not by very much. I have had zero run offs in the last 8 or 9 squirrels with that tune.

I totally agree on your methodology on the "just enough for full penetration"..makes perfect sense in an urban setting with neighbors.

It seems as though it's best to have an entrance and exit hole for heart/lung shots..2 holes allow the lungs to collapse completely, where as a single hole with pellet under the skin could allow the lungs to function a little longer..still a dead animal..with the difference being a few additional seconds before lack of O2 causes lights out. And a few extra seconds could allow them to make the yard next door.

 

[qball]

Thanks @JimD for the data, that’s very helpful! The perused of just enough requires precise data with rather small room for error. 


@ibc_PSI: your reasoning makes a lot of sense. Fortunately the few times I have taken vital shots with just enough power/no exit wound the squirrels were not able to run more than a few feet and dropped within 10 seconds. My observation is they want to escape up the tree and they all dropped less than 10 feet of where they were hit.

 

[clutchdude]

My data on .22 cal with 18.1gr JSB shooting ground squirrels at 16 yards all head shots

6.8 FPE at muzzle mostly stunned targets, rarely had penetration

11 FPE at muzzle most of the time penetrated with 50/50 chance of pass thru 

16.4 FPE at muzzle 100% success rate, i don't like the pass thru but it is what i use currently.



Now i did try some 25.4gr JSBs at 6.5 FPE with 100% success rate, 

I love how quite is is at this low energy, but the trajectory is tough on 30-40 yard shots.

 

[Guest]

One thing to consider is that what works in the summer will not penetrate a winter fur coat.

I've seen a pellet pass through a summer squirrel and bounce off a winter.

I've also seen one hit the base of the skull and do a 90 degree turn down the spine.

 

[BackStop]

Safe (no pass through) depends on a lot of things. The muzzle fps/fpe, the pellet and pellet weight, and not least... the distance to the target.

If the reasoning is to limit collateral damage, then the main things to consider are accuracy/precision of the shot and having a good backstop.

Even the best of us miss...

 

[qball]

@youngbuck3006: 

Very good points but that going to be hard to quantify, at the end of the day I rather has the pellet bounce off than fly off to the unknown. If it happens to bounce off then add 1-2 FPE, at least we have data to start off at. 





@backstop: 

love your AGN name! Very good points and due to all the veritable you mentioned I try to be more specific and want the energy at impact/target which will eliminate the environmental.



@clutchdude:

thanks for the info! The reason I specified vital shot is the head is smaller and most of the time requires much lower energy. However depends on how the squirrel is sitting the effect of the pellet is difference, even though I much prefer having the luxury of head shot with solid backstop but that’s not always available. Last couple of vital shots I took is because the vital had backstop but head did not. Since vital is much bigger and more consistent in amount of tissues at most angles so the data would be more reliable. 


my approach is wait for the head shot with back stop but if that’s not possible then I have my gun tuned to make just powerful enough vital shots or reduce risks on less optimum shots. With my roof and solar at stake I’ll take any opportunity to rid of these invasive tree rats humanely and safely. 

 

[OldSpook]

You might be over complicating the problem by not accepting pass throughs at very close range?

Missing data is the velocity remaining at point of impact.

The vast majority of energy will be expended in your squirrel. Also match grade flat top pellets will fly well at the velocities you are shooting. That will further minimize penetration. That is why I wish wad cutters were available for .25 cal springers which usually shoot in the 500 to 600 fps range.

 

[2muchair4leyla]

 Got some pellets in 177 https://youtu.be/UNhfXAavU14

 

[qball]

You might be over complicating the problem by not accepting pass throughs at very close range?

Missing data is the velocity remaining at point of impact.

The vast majority of energy will be expended in your squirrel. Also match grade flat top pellets will fly well at the velocities you are shooting. That will further minimize penetration. That is why I wish wad cutters were available for .25 cal springers which usually shoot in the 500 to 600 fps range.

I'm certainly isn't looking for the easy answer because that's always more power! LOL

The FPE numbers I'm trying to gather are on target or down range, this way it depends on the distance of the target it is easy to tune for. The reason I started the thread is the challenge to find that right amount of power on impact and pellet combo to achieve the "just enough" power but still a humane kill. Great suggestion on the wade cutters/match pellets, I'll have to find a source to buy them inexpensively. Currently I have over 20k cheap crossman hollow point and pointed pellets I need to get through.