Scope Magnification when Zeroing? Max or...?

[LDP]

Actually yes they are. I owned one and got rid of it. Blurry especially at the edge of the field of view. Mine was a 6-24 and you couldnt even use it above 18x. Turrets were mushy and it didnt track true. The sidewinder is overpriced and garbage according to my experience. I also had another hawke scope that was a different model but the same issues. I wouldnt pay $200 for one let alone the $500 they go for. 

Your very own experience even answers it for you

 

[functor]

AnthonyRamos-- I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure you aren't changing your sight picture? For example I use a pellet hole at 35 yards to zero at 16X, but I can't see that at 4X-- and if I tried to shoot that obviously my hold will not be as precise. 

I have a simple rule of thumb-- (10/target size in moa) = minimum magnification required for comfortably obtaining a proper sight picture. Similarly, for a given magnification, the best round target to aim at( for normal crosshair width) is roughly (10/ magnification) in moa. (In truth the minimum is more like 6/ target size in moa in good light/ good contrast , but 10 is a comfortable for more or less very low light as well) 

Try testing your zero on different sized targets based on your magnification and you might discover there's really no change of zero with magnification.( No change means you'll literally punch out the centre of the target at 35 yards).

Now there are some scopes-- usually sub 100$-- which DO shift zero with magnification. But then those scopes are really fixed power scopes as far as any precise shooting is concerned. 

 

[Dairyboy]

Sight in at max magnification. That way it's the most precise it can be. Sighting in at 4x is ok but can be slightly off and you can't tell because of the small zoom. But yes any and every good scope shouldn't be dead on at zero distance regardless of magnification

 

[functor]

LDP-- Hawke scopes are considered so good by many, but my experience has been that they are( Vantage/ something similar) optically very poor. I thought I got a bad one-- bought it used and it's a bit of a luck of the draw.

I haven't had the sidewinder though. I am surprised it did so poorly given it was once (still?) considered a very viable beginner FT scope. Certainly shouldn't change zero with magnification. 

 

[Anthony Jarvis]

Actually yes they are. I owned one and got rid of it. Blurry especially at the edge of the field of view. Mine was a 6-24 and you couldnt even use it above 18x. Turrets were mushy and it didnt track true. The sidewinder is overpriced and garbage according to my experience. I also had another hawke scope that was a different model but the same issues. I wouldnt pay $200 for one let alone the $500 they go for. 

Your very own experience even answers it for you

You got a point there! Thanks for the response 

 

[Anthony Jarvis]

AnthonyRamos-- I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure you aren't changing your sight picture? For example I use a pellet hole at 35 yards to zero at 16X, but I can't see that at 4X-- and if I tried to shoot that obviously my hold will not be as precise. 

I have a simple rule of thumb-- (10/target size in moa) = minimum magnification required for comfortably obtaining a proper sight picture. Similarly, for a given magnification, the best round target to aim at( for normal crosshair width) is roughly (10/ magnification) in moa. (In truth the minimum is more like 6/ target size in moa in good light/ good contrast , but 10 is a comfortable for more or less very low light as well) 

Try testing your zero on different sized targets based on your magnification and you might discover there's really no change of zero with magnification.( No change means you'll literally punch out the centre of the target at 35 yards).

Now there are some scopes-- usually sub 100$-- which DO shift zero with magnification. But then those scopes are really fixed power scopes as far as any precise shooting is concerned.

I will give your method a try and see what happens

 

[LDP]

Functor its not like every sidewinder comes off the line with issues. The sidewinder even when good isnt at the level of quality I would use for serious shooting. For a beginner that might not even like FT yes its a good start but the key is its considered viable for beginner level. The inconsistency in quality is a major problem with hawke scopes. The highest line they make may not have the issues but the sidewinder models and down definitely do. Just in this thread we have 7 hawkes that didnt perform. 

Im not sure why but it seems airgunners seem to accept inferior scopes as good. I have read that scopes wont work correctly or be clear if you dont keep it optically centered...whats the point of having scopes that are adjustable if you cant adjust it It seems that things like that are accepted as normal scope functions in airgun forums. If I cant dial my scope to its limit and take a shot or turn it back to zero and still be on zero the scope doesnt function correctly and I have no use for it.

If your budget only allows you to get a cheap scope then use what you can afford and get the best in the price range you can afford. What I am saying is that if you have $500 for a scope theres better options out there than a sidewinder. 

 

[Anthony Jarvis]

Functor its not like every sidewinder comes off the line with issues. The sidewinder even when good isnt at the level of quality I would use for serious shooting. For a beginner that might not even like FT yes its a good start but the key is its considered viable for beginner level. The inconsistency in quality is a major problem with hawke scopes. The highest line they make may not have the issues but the sidewinder models and down definitely do. Just in this thread we have 7 hawkes that didnt perform. 

Im not sure why but it seems airgunners seem to accept inferior scopes as good. I have read that scopes wont work correctly or be clear if you dont keep it optically centered...whats the point of having scopes that are adjustable if you cant adjust it

It seems that things like that are accepted as normal scope functions in airgun forums. If I cant dial my scope to its limit and take a shot or turn it back to zero and still be on zero the scope doesnt function correctly and I have no use for it.

If your budget only allows you to get a cheap scope then use what you can afford and get the best in the price range you can afford. What I am saying is that if you have $500 for a scope theres better options out there than a sidewinder.

This goes back to my post about selling Good Glass! What is condisidered better? Or what specs does one have over another to classify it as better?

 

[LDP]

Anthony thats a somewhat subjective question as far as whats better. Everything I have said so far about quality is obviously my opinion and may be true for me but not someone else. Based on my experiences I believe it to be true but other people will no doubt have different experiences and have a different opinion. 

In my opinion the viper line from vortex is better than the sidewinder. The viper line is right around the same price point of the sidewinders at retail pricing. I have a couple weaver tactical kaspa scopes that were only $225 retail that are much clearer than my hawkes and have usable turrets. Im kinda spoiled because I work for a vortex dealer so I can get vortex scopes for very good prices. Im waiting on a couple vortex diamond back tactical ffp scopes to come in to see how they compare to hawke. Burris has a scope right around $350 thats very clear with good turrets. Thats a few scopes I have personally held and used that were much better than my two hawkes.

Specs to look at for straight up comparison would be where are the scopes internal parts made. Another would be where and what facility makes the glass. Something to look at in reviews would be if people are using the scope at long distance and if they are able to repeatedly use the turrets to adjust poi at long ranges like 1,000 yds and still return to their normal zero range. Sometimes that type of info can be hard to find. I check out firearm forums to see what experience people have with scopes I havnt used at longer ranges on small targets like varmints or paper punching. If the scope works for that crowd you know its a good scope thats repeatable.

 

[Anthony Jarvis]

Anthony thats a somewhat subjective question as far as whats better. Everything I have said so far about quality is obviously my opinion and may be true for me but not someone else. Based on my experiences I believe it to be true but other people will no doubt have different experiences and have a different opinion. 

LIn my opinion the viper line from vortex is better than the sidewinder. The viper line is right around the same price point of the sidewinders at retail pricing. I have a couple weaver tactical kaspa scopes that were only $225 retail that are much clearer than my hawkes and have usable turrets. Im kinda spoiled because I work for a vortex dealer so I can get vortex scopes for very good prices. Im waiting on a couple vortex diamond back tactical ffp scopes to come in to see how they compare to hawke. Burris has a scope right around $350 thats very clear with good turrets. Thats a few scopes I have personally held and used that were much better than my two hawkes.

Specs to look at for straight up comparison would be where are the scopes internal parts made. Another would be where and what facility makes the glass. Something to look at in reviews would be if people are using the scope at long distance and if they are able to repeatedly use the turrets to adjust poi at long ranges like 1,000 yds and still return to their normal zero range. Sometimes that type of info can be hard to find. I check out firearm forums to see what experience people have with scopes I havnt used at longer ranges on small targets like varmints or paper punching. If the scope works for that crowd you know its a good scope thats repeatable.

Does your scope rings play a part on how well the scope functions? Also, you are the first person I have heard say that Hawke Sidewinder scopes were trash. There’s an abundance of Hawke scopes and reviews that contradict your statement. 

 

[nak81783]

All of my scopes (~$200-$400 price range in Hawke, Vortex, and Leupold brands) shift POI across their magnification range to some small extent. I have a hypothesis that it could be related to parallax error (even on adjustable parallax scopes), but nothing I'm willing to defend without more research and testing.

I zero with the magnification I'd typically use at the zeroing distance, which is usually high magnification. I then check low and middle magnification at a few different distances to see if there's a trend in the POI shift. For the shots I take that aren't at the magnification used to zero, I just remember that trend and hold accordingly. This usually only happens when close and quick shots are needed on game or pests.

 

[Eddie_E]

The reticle should track the POI regardless of zoom power - that's a basic scope requirement.

Therefore you should be able to "zero" your scope to the rifle at any power.

Not true

Okay, Anthony, Fred answered your question, a question you seemed to state you did not know the answer to, and you simply said "Not true." I'm curious as to why you think it is not true. My understanding is that the reticle should track the same POI no matter what the magnification is set at. Only the angle subtended by the windage and elevation markings change with magnification on a second focal plane scope. It is one of the tests our fellow airgunner Joe Wayne Rhea performs on his scope reviews. I'm not trying to start an argument. I just want to understand your reasoning as to why this would not be true. Once I zero my scope, I can repeatedly aim dead on the target at zero range, at any power magnification, and hit the same spot. Only holdover changes at non-zero ranges, and that is only true if you are using a second focal plane scope. On a first focal plane scope, the holdover remains the same regardless of zoom.

You are correct that Joe does test tracking, but you must not have watched all of his $100 scope reviews. One of the most popular air gun and air soft scopes failed to do this. In fact it failed to track in all 36 illuminated colors.

 

[LDP]

Yes your scope rings will play a part in how good the scope and rifle perform. If they dont securely hold the scope you wont be able to keep a zero. The scope needs to be held straight and in line with the bore for the scopes poi to stay true as you increase the distance.

Anthony there are plenty of reviews that mirror my experience theres even one in this thread. I know I have seen more than a few bad reviews or comments on hawkes in airgun forums. You will find more in firearms forums. Like I said some people are happy with them and some not so much. 

 

[sonny]

im going to say its your parallax not the power setting.

 

[TheIceman]

The reticle should track the POI regardless of zoom power - that's a basic scope requirement.

Therefore you should be able to "zero" your scope to the rifle at any power.

Not true

Okay, Anthony, Fred answered your question, a question you seemed to state you did not know the answer to, and you simply said "Not true." I'm curious as to why you think it is not true. My understanding is that the reticle should track the same POI no matter what the magnification is set at. Only the angle subtended by the windage and elevation markings change with magnification on a second focal plane scope. It is one of the tests our fellow airgunner Joe Wayne Rhea performs on his scope reviews. I'm not trying to start an argument. I just want to understand your reasoning as to why this would not be true. Once I zero my scope, I can repeatedly aim dead on the target at zero range, at any power magnification, and hit the same spot. Only holdover changes at non-zero ranges, and that is only true if you are using a second focal plane scope. On a first focal plane scope, the holdover remains the same regardless of zoom.

You are correct that Joe does test tracking, but you must not have watched all of his $100 scope reviews. One of the most popular air gun and air soft scopes failed to do this. In fact it failed to track in all 36 illuminated colors.

Eddie,

Thanks for the input. I have watched many of Joe's videos. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but my point is that Fred stated that a scope should track the same POI regardless of zoom setting, and got a response that this is not true. Obviously, not all scopes do track the same POI. But they should, or they are going to cause you grief when shooting at different magnifications. So, Fred's statement, and mine, stands true. A scope should track the same POI. The fact that many fail to do so does not change the fact that they should.

 

[Coldair]

Whether or not you have a bad quality scope that doesn't track well when zoomed would bring me to the common sense conclusion to zero it at what power you typically zoom it in at when taking your shots.

That is, if you don't want to buy another scope and are content with using what you have.

I do agree that Hawkes are way overpriced for what you get and there are a lot better alternatives within that price range such as Aztec, Athlon and even Discovery with better glass which seem to track well based on initial testing and FYI MTCs are hit or miss based on my tests even the expensive ones. UTG Leapers don't track very well but they are affordable enough and useable if you just optically center them and don't use them for clicking and just hold over as long as you zero your gun at the magnification you normally use.

If you can afford pricier scopes I would recommend USA Leupold custom shop or scopes made in Japan or Germany or Austria if you expect no nonsense perfect working scopes because you get what you pay for.

I am not sure about the reliability or longevity of Chinese made scopes but the initial observation for the ones I listed seem fine for now.

If I had to choose a cheap scope based on budget restraints I would get the clearest one within the price range and optically center it and use adjustable mounts and just hold over and don't touch the turrets.

I have heard numerous good reviews about the Chinese made Weaver Kaspa but haven't gotten one yet.


CA