Scope vs Red Dot

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Red dots can have real precision but you need to select one which has no greater than a 2 moa dot. Its a tiny dot but takes no time at all getting use to finding the dot in any condition after a few hours of practice. Forget all the nonsense spoke about bigger dots being easier to find....You will find it easy ok but its dot will cover your entire target if a head shot is your aim beyond a few yards..

You then need a housing of real quality, with accurate adjustment....I prefer 20mm dovetail mounting onto a picitinny where the base of the sight has a bar which locates into one of the mounts grooves....zero chance of movement...then we start.. 

However, I once got the opportunity to try a Leupold 1x scope....What a revelation for pistol shooting at 5 to 20 yards. The cross hair allows more precision than any red dot, the magnification at 1x allows zero shake and the thing just works....

I wonder why it is that there is no market for such a scope ....something say 1 inch diameter x 6 inch length with 1x mag and a fine cross hair...It would be ideal but there is not one out there....
 
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I really like Match Dot Ultras. You can dial in several size dots, including 1 MOA. I also like that you can mount them low. 

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LP50 Match Dot.1613308789.jpg

 
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I found red dot to be just as accurate as a scope. The problem with no magnification is small target identification, I can hit a small bird at 20 yards and I've done so before with red dot but it's damn near impossible to see which bird I'm aiming at. I don't want to shoot my song birds next to the house sparrows, had to use binoculars to see which bird was the house sparrow and then shoot which is way too much trouble. Even in my back yard of 34 yards across my go to magnification is 10X on everything, getting older SUCK!!! 


edit: still have red dot on my pistol but I won’t shoot small targets like a house sparrow pass 15 yards or any distance where I can’t positively identify the target. It is 100% fastest in terms of target acquisition at close range. Another thing to consider is for people like who have astigmatism, the red dots can distort and basically unusable, a low magnification prism scope would solve that problem. 
 
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I am sure many will disagree with my statement, but here goes anyway. I see all these very nice pistol rigs with shoulder supports, scopes and different sand bags, gun vices and various other support paraphernalia in use. My feeling here is that you defeat the value of having a pistol by using these things. You should have bought an air rifle. You would have what you obviously need right out of the box. 



Pistols are hard to shoot accurately. Very few pistol shooters can hold a 6" circle at 15 yards off hand......that's the truth. I'm talking about police officers, other law enforcement professionals, military personnel and civilians alike. I have worked in these circles and have been a pistol shooter all my life. That statement is not hearsay. It's a product of personal experience. It's scary! I understand why folks use this stuff. They cannot hit their target otherwise. Which defeats the value of a handgun. A fellow competitor many years ago said to me that if you really want to shoot a handgun well, you have to be prepared to shoot 10,000 rounds a year, year after year, because the skill set is perishable and you will lose that skill if you don't. At the time, I thought he was exaggerating. Well, he wasn't. These guys that win these pistol competitions, they do that and more. You have to. Many pistols, especially heavy calipers will be completely worn out and be junk after 10,000 rounds of service loads. Ask me how I know. Shooting 10,000 rounds a year is almost a full time occupation, but ignoring the time factor, just the cost of ammunition, even with reloading is beyond affordable for most. My point here is simple. The big advantage of PCP pistols is the affordability of shooting to that level of practice in both time and ammunition cost. 

If you carry a pistol for your occupation or for self defense purposes, you absolutely must be coached by a professional and you must practice. You sure as hell are not going to carry your service handgun with a scope are you? So why practice with all those band-aids? Shooting a hand gun accurately is very rewarding and fun because it is so difficult. Don't be afraid to miss, everybody does.
 
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I'm shooting a Crosman 2300T, Crosman Vigilanti, Diana Airbug, Webley Nemesis and just yesterday ordered a Crosman 2240XL with a TKO Suppresor....

2 years ago I spotted on Ebay some Chinese cloned Trijicon RMR Red Dots so I bought 3 at $35.00 ea. Never had an issue and they have the Small 1MOA Red Dot, necessary, IMO, for Pin Pointing the Dot to the POA on 5 shot one hole groups... I also occasionally mount a Short Redfield 4X scope on my Diana....but consider Red Dots the way to go...Shooting 10 Meter, Sitting and in a pistol rest... 

I'm really looking forward to trying out my new 2240XL when it arrives, I've read that it is the very best of the Single Shot Bolt Action Pistols, .22cal, trying to smooth out those 5 shot ragged one holers.....

Of the Pistols I've mentioned above I find them all equal in accuracy, imo accuracy is type of pellet and the shooter, not the pistol....FWIW

Chuck
 
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I am sure many will disagree with my statement, but here goes anyway. I see all these very nice pistol rigs with shoulder supports, scopes and different sand bags, gun vices and various other support paraphernalia in use. My feeling here is that you defeat the value of having a pistol by using these things. You should have bought an air rifle. You would have what you obviously need right out of the box. 



Pistols are hard to shoot accurately. Very few pistol shooters can hold a 6" circle at 15 yards off hand......that's the truth. I'm talking about police officers, other law enforcement professionals, military personnel and civilians alike. I have worked in these circles and have been a pistol shooter all my life. That statement is not hearsay. It's a product of personal experience. It's scary! I understand why folks use this stuff. They cannot hit their target otherwise. Which defeats the value of a handgun. A fellow competitor many years ago said to me that if you really want to shoot a handgun well, you have to be prepared to shoot 10,000 rounds a year, year after year, because the skill set is perishable and you will lose that skill if you don't. At the time, I thought he was exaggerating. Well, he wasn't. These guys that win these pistol competitions, they do that and more. You have to. Many pistols, especially heavy calipers will be completely worn out and be junk after 10,000 rounds of service loads. Ask me how I know. Shooting 10,000 rounds a year is almost a full time occupation, but ignoring the time factor, just the cost of ammunition, even with reloading is beyond affordable for most. My point here is simple. The big advantage of PCP pistols is the affordability of shooting to that level of practice in both time and ammunition cost. 

If you carry a pistol for your occupation or for self defense purposes, you absolutely must be coached by a professional and you must practice. You sure as hell are not going to carry your service handgun with a scope are you? So why practice with all those band-aids? Shooting a hand gun accurately is very rewarding and fun because it is so difficult. Don't be afraid to miss, everybody does.
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don’t think anyone would disagree with you on the need for practice with a pistol, it is very difficult especially with a real firearm. 


However not everyone carry a pistol and intend it to use it in the situation you described. I for one don’t have a real pistol because I have small kids at home and wife won’t agree to having one in the house even in the safe, I rather not argue. Also not everyone physically capable of shooting pistol accurately and/or have the time/means to practice that much. For most of us this stuff is just toys so whatever brings people joy and shooting with of without crutches, still trigger time is trigger time if you ask me. It may not translate but not everyone is looking for transferable practice to real guns. 


If you look at the average age of members here many of us can’t see that clearly at 15 yards let along holding a pistol steady enough to hit a small target! LOL 




 
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I am sure many will disagree with my statement, but here goes anyway. I see all these very nice pistol rigs with shoulder supports, scopes and different sand bags, gun vices and various other support paraphernalia in use. My feeling here is that you defeat the value of having a pistol by using these things. You should have bought an air rifle. You would have what you obviously need right out of the box. 



Pistols are hard to shoot accurately. Very few pistol shooters can hold a 6" circle at 15 yards off hand......that's the truth. I'm talking about police officers, other law enforcement professionals, military personnel and civilians alike. I have worked in these circles and have been a pistol shooter all my life. That statement is not hearsay. It's a product of personal experience. It's scary! I understand why folks use this stuff. They cannot hit their target otherwise. Which defeats the value of a handgun. A fellow competitor many years ago said to me that if you really want to shoot a handgun well, you have to be prepared to shoot 10,000 rounds a year, year after year, because the skill set is perishable and you will lose that skill if you don't. At the time, I thought he was exaggerating. Well, he wasn't. These guys that win these pistol competitions, they do that and more. You have to. Many pistols, especially heavy calipers will be completely worn out and be junk after 10,000 rounds of service loads. Ask me how I know. Shooting 10,000 rounds a year is almost a full time occupation, but ignoring the time factor, just the cost of ammunition, even with reloading is beyond affordable for most. My point here is simple. The big advantage of PCP pistols is the affordability of shooting to that level of practice in both time and ammunition cost. 

If you carry a pistol for your occupation or for self defense purposes, you absolutely must be coached by a professional and you must practice. You sure as hell are not going to carry your service handgun with a scope are you? So why practice with all those band-aids? Shooting a hand gun accurately is very rewarding and fun because it is so difficult. Don't be afraid to miss, everybody does.
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I agree with what you note above completely, for myself. To me, a handgun is a hand gun. As to shooting ability, our local range is used by several local PD's for training and I personally would not want to be anywhere near a suspect that most of them were going to engage. But everyone is different. There isn't one standard for everyone, either to gun setup or "professional" training.
 
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I agree with that Bolero....

Once you have practised the same hold for each time you hold the gun on aim, and the tiny touch that the pad of your finger does with the trigger, as the sights hit your intended aim point, it becomes almost subcontious and something you can return to 6 montns later, with exactly the same technique....

.....but you have to build this first. Like learning to swim, or riding a bike. You never forget but it has to be learned first..

I have taken it a stage further still. While holding the gun on aim, i can almost sense when the trigger needs pulling and the aim point i require. I think that is when marksmanship is achieved but relative to what I do (5 to 20 yd pistol shooting) Dropping a big animal, or human at 1000 yds requiring a whole different skill set and sensing of the prevailing conditions...Shotgun shooting similarly...
 
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Hi Steveoo, I basically agree with what you say just not as exacting....

Ive shot Skeet & ATA Trap for 40 years, 22LR Precision BR 50Yds, Anschutz, Rem. 40X, Suhl150 for 30 Yrs and along the way 22LR, 9mm, 38 Special Handguns....

Due to age and ongoing health issues I've left my Gun Club and quit Firearms all together...switching to Airgun Pistol and shooting in my Basement, Garage and Patio...

I've learned along the way that to become an accomplished professional shooter practice as you describe is necessary...As long Top Level Professionalism is sought after or to be maintained...

BTW I'm turning 80 IN 3 Months...FWIW

Chuck
 
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I knew my comment would create a discussion, but what I stated is the truth. However, adequate is subjective. What is satisfactory for one may be totally unacceptable to another. What I can say is that holding a 6 inch circle at 15 yards is not acceptable to me. I do much better, but for me to achieve what I do, I shoot every day at least 40 rounds. I used to shoot much better when I was competing. That was when I was young. I am now 76.Today, when I shoot a handgun with open sights, I have to use my reading glasses and concentrate on the front sight. I can still put 5 rounds in a very tight group, I'm just not sure where that group is. See my target from last week. The target is a standard 10 meter 14 cm target with a 5 cm black center.
IMG_1726.1613671607.jpg
 It is 20 rounds at 25 yards. I had 3 flyers. My normal daily target has between 6 and 9 flyers though.
 
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thanks for the info...I mounted a Redfield 4x on my Diana Airbug to see what it could do compared to my shooting it with a Red Dot on 1 MOA, Non Magnified BTW.....

The scope provided much greater Definition and I feel increased the accuracy from the POV of changing a RD ragged 5 shot hole at 8 meter into a less ragged hole same 8 meters, 5 shots...

So i attribute the Difference to the Magification of the scope image vs the RD image, it does make a difference

Chuck 


 
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thanks for the info...I mounted a Redfield 4x on my Diana Airbug to see what it could do compared to my shooting it with a Red Dot on 1 MOA, Non Magnified BTW.....

The scope provided much greater Definition and I feel increased the accuracy from the POV of changing a RD ragged 5 shot hole at 8 meter into a less ragged hole same 8 meters, 5 shots...

So i attribute the Difference to the Magification of the scope image vs the RD image, it does make a difference

Chuck 



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I had a Red Dot on my FWB 65 and at 75 years loved it. However, the accuracy that this pistol is capable of can't be achieved with a Red Dot. I mounted a scope on it and the precision is amazing.

For me, it comes down to what you want to do with it.....different tools for different jobs.
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Exactly. A red dot can work well on a pistol, even on a rifle. But it cannot provide the precision of a scope. The fact that a magnified pistol scope image "moves around" is very true but doesn't impact it's precision. The precision is provided (or not) by the shooter. A red dot would actually be "moving" just as much in relation to the target but would be perceived to move less with less magnification. I have and use both. I prefer the scope for precision shooting and the red dot for quicker shooting. I currently have a laser mounted on my HW44 and it is the best of both "worlds"-very quick and very precise.
 
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