"Search", All answers, all the time....

If you really want to know where the frustration comes from and the OP can correct me if I’m wrong, I’ll give you my take. When you have been doing the airgun thing at any level higher than a casual shooter and enjoy the forum, you are now craving content that challenges you and is interesting. When you keep seeing the same old entry level stuff, it’s a bummer. Then one day you snap and start a topic. When your favorite restaurant keeps serving you an empty plate, eventually you feel compelled to react. It has nothing to do with elitism or anything else people call people to make themselves feel better. It’s just frustration. I will certainly remember the names in this topic who were not sympathetic to someone’s frustration and tried to make him out as the real bad guy because his views don’t align with theirs.
 
I’ve been a member of forums, airgun and otherwise, for decades now.

Yes search “works” if you know the exact search term to take you to a thread you specifically remember. It does not work if you don’t know of the past thread or what keywords will work.

Of course there are always users who don’t bother and expect a team of expert consultants to swoop in and coddle them along their meandering path. Ignore them if you don’t want to be part of that process. I do.

It can be tricky knowing which information in the search is relevant. Like pcp tuning - if I have a Crown Mk II, and I see info about a Crown Mk I, or a different caliber, or one with aftermarket parts - is it relevant? Or when the topic you want to know is keywords that appear *everywhere*, such that searches lead you nowhere. It never hurts to post a link to a useful old thread and get that person onto a better path.
 
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If you really want to know where the frustration comes from and the OP can correct me if I’m wrong, I’ll give you my take. When you have been doing the airgun thing at any level higher than a casual shooter and enjoy the forum, you are now craving content that challenges you and is interesting. When you keep seeing the same old entry level stuff, it’s a bummer. Then one day you snap and start a topic. When your favorite restaurant keeps serving you an empty plate, eventually you feel compelled to react. It has nothing to do with elitism or anything else people call people to make themselves feel better. It’s just frustration. I will certainly remember the names in this topic who were not sympathetic to someone’s frustration and tried to make him out as the real bad guy because his views don’t align with theirs.
It's Asbestos. ;)

It's rare that I'd ever be sympathetic to someone who can't be bothered to remember where they came from. It's not that I don't understand the frustration... just that it's directed at the wrong crowd.
 
If you really want to know where the frustration comes from and the OP can correct me if I’m wrong, I’ll give you my take. When you have been doing the airgun thing at any level higher than a casual shooter and enjoy the forum, you are now craving content that challenges you and is interesting. When you keep seeing the same old entry level stuff, it’s a bummer. Then one day you snap and start a topic. When your favorite restaurant keeps serving you an empty plate, eventually you feel compelled to react. It has nothing to do with elitism or anything else people call people to make themselves feel better. It’s just frustration. I will certainly remember the names in this topic who were not sympathetic to someone’s frustration and tried to make him out as the real bad guy because his views don’t align with theirs.

If you're unhappy on the 'internet beginner's range', perhaps it's time to move on up to the 'advanced level shooter's internet range'. (Do let us know when you locate it.)

Everyone starts somewhere, and if we don't step up and help them along at the beginning of their journey they'll quickly leave the path that we (the vaunted and prestigious Advanced Shooters) trail-blazed. They'll leave that path much sooner if they see us spending our time complaining about their presence. IOW - They represent the future of the airgun sport and it might be wiser to nurture them than to chase them off. Without newbies our sport dies a slow death.

As a fellow motorcycle riding friend one said. - "Take care of new riders because we were once them, and they will be us." - Y Hong, 2004

People unfailingly segregate and then discriminate. Often unknowingly against their own interests.

Peace,

J~
 
The beginners range and the expert range are both located right here I believe.

I look at 'General' as the beginners range, introductions, basic questions, range etiquette and the like.
The 'Expert' range would be the various sub forums delving into more specialized aspects of the hobby.


Now about new riders....

I much prefer to not be surrounded by them.
Behind me, they do not matter until they forget what brakes are for, and if they are in front of me they are used for traction when they get off low side. (A jest, do not get tense)
The new guy who tries to get under you and stand you up in a corner is the one that scares me.
 
Such as the OP's post???
What the OP’s post inspired was some very good search tips from a couple members. Thankfully they took the time to explain how to get the most out of the search function instead of lecturing him about how to coddle a newbie. Right now I’m in the same camp as what Bigragu eluded to. Yes, we don’t want to drive new people away. But more importantly we can’t keep losing our extremely knowledgeable members because of new members and how they act. Maybe it’s just the evolution of every forum. I don’t have that answer. What I do know is this. When you’ve been on here long enough and have a gun problem, there are certain names you really hope show up to help when you start a topic. Those guys are disappearing at an astonishing rate.
 
It's Asbestos. ;)

It's rare that I'd ever be sympathetic to someone who can't be bothered to remember where they came from. It's not that I don't understand the frustration... just that it's directed at the wrong crowd.
First, I do want to say thank you for your service to this country. It is deserving of great respect . . . .

A couple of days ago I added to this topic to express my views on it, mostly geared to defend some folks and explain why I think this issue is bothersome to some of us, and you kind of ridiculed it just like you did to them - and that is fine. Life goes on, and we are all entitled to our opinion. But I see that you continue doing it to pretty much everyone that shares sympathy with the goal of doing something positive on this topic - again, and again . . . And that prompted me to take a few minutes to scan your posts here to see what “camp” you fall into here as, at least in this post, you seem to spend your time and effort belittling those that share that goal . . . .

It looks like there a lot of your posts are just complaints about people in the same vein as here. Lots of short comments too. There were a few short helpful posts on your Factor RC, and a particularly helpful but brief one on the use of red dot sights. I did not spend a ton of time looking, but I saw no sign that you take any real amount of time to help newbies here - despite blasting us “elites” for our attitude towards new airgunners. This despite the obvious fact that we are the very people that do take the time to answer the questions, and to repeat answers, if required. You seem to insist that we are opposed to those people asking questions at all, rather than expressing views that it would be great if we could find a way to avoid having to do that (admittedly along with the frustration it causes).

I am fairly new on this forum as well, but I came here from many other airgun forums that I have participated in over the years (many now defunct). In all of them I have spent a lot of my time helping others, with some responses to posts taking over an hour to fully compose, edit, verify - and often multiple times, as even I could not find my prior answers with their horrible search tools. I know that many of the folks on this post that you belittle do the same thing. And yes, it is frustrating to see a question asked by somebody that clearly did not take the time to search or even scan a few pages into the appropriate sub-forum where the answer already is – often because they don’t know where to begin, through no fault of their own.

I can’t speak for the OP – maybe he was just trying to stir crap up. But many have added to this post with the view of improving things in some manner. We are not explicitly deriding the new users – although a few are possibly worthy of it – but expressing frustration on the process. I for one, will continue to help new members by providing answers to their questions, often with links to earlier answers that I wrote or find. I’m sure many of the other “elitists” here that you deride for also wanting to see the process improve will be doing the same.

Again, thank you for your service to our country - but here, at least in my opinion, not so much. I do hope that something good comes from the positive ideas in this thread, like a FAQ section that could function like a Wiki with editable answers to keep things brief and easy to read for new users (a lot like fellow elitist Nervoustrig mentioned in response #5) . . . let the flaming begin; I am done with this thread.
 
Some coddling is expected, and to be honest, it is our duty as members who have been here longer and know stuff to assist those who are new to the environment here.

That being said, I do believe that pointing out the search function and some tips as to what or how to search for information counts as a coddle, or maybe a cuddle??

Having to lead someone by the hand and open the thread for them is somewhat tiresome, as well as the misinformed poster who clings to a fallacy at the expense of all other considerations when confronted by data indicating the opposite.......

There again, one could expend a little effort once a day and count that as their good deed done. Help out a member with something simple to you, but confounding to them, and balance the karma board a bit.
 
First, I do want to say thank you for your service to this country. It is deserving of great respect . . . .

A couple of days ago I added to this topic to express my views on it, mostly geared to defend some folks and explain why I think this issue is bothersome to some of us, and you kind of ridiculed it just like you did to them - and that is fine. Life goes on, and we are all entitled to our opinion. But I see that you continue doing it to pretty much everyone that shares sympathy with the goal of doing something positive on this topic - again, and again . . . And that prompted me to take a few minutes to scan your posts here to see what “camp” you fall into here as, at least in this post, you seem to spend your time and effort belittling those that share that goal . . . .

It looks like there a lot of your posts are just complaints about people in the same vein as here. Lots of short comments too. There were a few short helpful posts on your Factor RC, and a particularly helpful but brief one on the use of red dot sights. I did not spend a ton of time looking, but I saw no sign that you take any real amount of time to help newbies here - despite blasting us “elites” for our attitude towards new airgunners. This despite the obvious fact that we are the very people that do take the time to answer the questions, and to repeat answers, if required. You seem to insist that we are opposed to those people asking questions at all, rather than expressing views that it would be great if we could find a way to avoid having to do that (admittedly along with the frustration it causes).

I am fairly new on this forum as well, but I came here from many other airgun forums that I have participated in over the years (many now defunct). In all of them I have spent a lot of my time helping others, with some responses to posts taking over an hour to fully compose, edit, verify - and often multiple times, as even I could not find my prior answers with their horrible search tools. I know that many of the folks on this post that you belittle do the same thing. And yes, it is frustrating to see a question asked by somebody that clearly did not take the time to search or even scan a few pages into the appropriate sub-forum where the answer already is – often because they don’t know where to begin, through no fault of their own.

I can’t speak for the OP – maybe he was just trying to stir crap up. But many have added to this post with the view of improving things in some manner. We are not explicitly deriding the new users – although a few are possibly worthy of it – but expressing frustration on the process. I for one, will continue to help new members by providing answers to their questions, often with links to earlier answers that I wrote or find. I’m sure many of the other “elitists” here that you deride for also wanting to see the process improve will be doing the same.

Again, thank you for your service to our country - but here, at least in my opinion, not so much. I do hope that something good comes from the positive ideas in this thread, like a FAQ section that could function like a Wiki with editable answers to keep things brief and easy to read for new users (a lot like fellow elitist Nervoustrig mentioned in response #5) . . . let the flaming begin; I am done with this thread.
I absolutely appreciate this post more than you know. First of all, I AM a "newbie" here so I'm not too sure how much help I can be to newbies when I have the same questions they do. I'm very active in the PB community and airguns are new to me, but as a veteran on several PB forums, I see all the same questions repeated over and over. They're important... they represent the FUTURE 2A advocates. "Whats the best AR?", "Whats the best 2011?", "Why is KAC gear so expensive?", "Do I store my magazines full or empty? 29 or 30 rounds?"... these "silly" questions are asked daily... and answered.

You are correct... I went a bit deep in the paint a few times on here as it got under my craw. Part of me regrets it as I like to be a part of these kinds of forums and part of me thinks it all needed to be said. I'd hate to see a hobby as rewarding as this one die on the vine because some new folks got good at it and became too "touchy" to help newer people achieve that success. Did I go too far? Of course I did... I can admit it. But seeing it from the new guys side, for a change, made me grateful that I simply just try to help new folks along by answering their questions over and over on PB forums. Forums weren't yet a thing (nor was the internet) when I started shooting so there wasn't a bunch of questions I needed to ask when I joined, but that wasn't the case when I joined here.

If I had it all to do over again, I'd have made my point and moved on, but yesterday sucked so this turned into a pet project and got away from me. Again, I appreciate your post and I thank you for taking the time. I apologize for coming in sideways but I stand behind my opinion that the "newbies" simply asking a question that you're all tired of seeing ARE the future of this great hobby.
 
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I used to belong to a dodge first gen diesel forum. I asked the question on drum brake replacement one time and some dude piped in and said to use the search feature and he also called me out as being a member on that forum long enough to know it’s use(he checked my join date, and also saw I had already asked that question months prior AND was already advised). So yeah, I’ll be honest, I was BEING LAZY, and looking for the quick answer.
Was I upset with him? Heck yes. Do I get the frustration? Not at that time but I can see how most would today.

It reminded me of when I was a first year apprentice in my trade and I asked my foreman how to tie down a load using a truckers hitch. He yelled at me as he showed me again, for the third time. He told me I needed to force myself to soak in information given.

I’m going to use an example of a member here who is not only well versed in anything barrel related, but also on scope mounting to combat against CANT and reticle alignment to the bore. He is one I respect, and since I didn’t ask his permission prior to writing this I will leave his name out. The seasoned guys here know who he is. Tell me that guy is not one of the most patient of all, constantly chiming in and REWRITING his procedures on barrel polishing and scope mounting, instead of saying “here you go, here’s a link”.

The subject of barrel cleaning/polishing, etc is a perfect topic, as that’s been hammered on since I’ve been a member on here since 2017. The responses given to the OP inquiring are getting less and less, and the advice isn’t coming from anyone I know anymore(hence my reply earlier).

And guess who comes flying out of the sky, with the correct advice based on endless experience? He corrects the bogus info being given, and does it tactfully. He doesn’t have to do this, you know, but he does.

Did you know you could just hop on Google, not even use the search feature here, and type in air rifle barrel cleaning procedures and his threads pop up? Me personally, I’d rather research the older topics thru Google search cause the replies were more plentiful, from the seasoned vets who don’t reply to that topic anymore.

I learned a lesson that day, when that dude called me out on that diesel forum. So now I do my due diligence by searching, then possibly take a second step by sending a pm to a seasoned vet, to verify my findings. A lot of effort, but worth it to me.
 
I used to belong to a dodge first gen diesel forum. I asked the question on drum brake replacement one time and some dude piped in and said to use the search feature and he also called me out as being a member on that forum long enough to know it’s use(he checked my join date, and also saw I had already asked that question months prior AND was already advised). So yeah, I’ll be honest, I was BEING LAZY, and looking for the quick answer.
Was I upset with him? Heck yes. Do I get the frustration? Not at that time but I can see how most would today.

It reminded me of when I was a first year apprentice in my trade and I asked my foreman how to tie down a load using a truckers hitch. He yelled at me as he showed me again, for the third time. He told me I needed to force myself to soak in information given.

I’m going to use an example of a member here who is not only well versed in anything barrel related, but also on scope mounting to combat against CANT and reticle alignment to the bore. He is one I respect, and since I didn’t ask his permission prior to writing this I will leave his name out. The seasoned guys here know who he is. Tell me that guy is not one of the most patient of all, constantly chiming in and REWRITING his procedures on barrel polishing and scope mounting, instead of saying “here you go, here’s a link”.

The subject of barrel cleaning/polishing, etc is a perfect topic, as that’s been hammered on since I’ve been a member on here since 2017. The responses given to the OP inquiring are getting less and less, and the advice isn’t coming from anyone I know anymore(hence my reply earlier).

And guess who comes flying out of the sky, with the correct advice based on endless experience? He corrects the bogus info being given, and does it tactfully. He doesn’t have to do this, you know, but he does.

Did you know you could just hop on Google, not even use the search feature here, and type in air rifle barrel cleaning procedures and his threads pop up? Me personally, I’d rather research the older topics thru Google search cause the replies were more plentiful, from the seasoned vets who don’t reply to that topic anymore.

I learned a lesson that day, when that dude called me out on that diesel forum. So now I do my due diligence by searching, then possibly take a second step by sending a pm to a seasoned vet, to verify my findings. A lot of effort, but worth it to me.
He's a Nervous type I hear..........

Proper regard for that fellow, he is a true Mensch.
 
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