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Should AAFTA arrange for a single centralized site for the National Championshps?

It seems to me that a lot of the top shooters... even AAFTA Grand Prix winners... are not often able to travel to the AAFTA National Field Target Championships.

I wonder if it's worth it to consider a centralized location, and if that might result in more of the top shooters competing for the National Championship titles?

The clubs could still take turns managing and profiting (along with AAFTA of course), from the events if they choose to be in a rotation.

More clubs could get in the rotation than now because a lot of clubs have good numbers of members, but not a great venue for 120 competitors over two days.

We might even be able to set enough courses for 180 competitors and really make it work for everyone... every time.

The location would not be a local clubs venue. That would be for the Grand Prix events, so the National championship would be a "Fresh Course for all" set by a rotation of hosting clubs.

What do you think AAFTA competitors and Match Directors?

Wayne
 
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Centralized based upon what topographic ?

if speaking mid continent, then all those mid continent get a local match. Then look at what FT activity happen mid continent ... LOL not much !!
Having ... the bulk of the shooters traveling half way across the country to meet in the middle in dang near FT near no mans land.

Can see why it never gained traction ... just not very realistic
 
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I'm not sure what we are trying to fix with a centralized Nationals venue. Is lack of general attendance the issue? Or is it lack of attendance by the "top" shooters?

I mean, field target has about 200 "competitive" shooters in the US. We are a tiny, fringe sport. So the fact that 42 people were willing to fly to Puerto Rico for Nationals was actually pretty impressive. I mean, Oregon only had 56 shooters in 2021. (Although for most people, PR is easier to get to than Oregon).

Pre-Covid nationals had 103 in 2019, which I think is probably the expected attendance going forward assuming the location is reasonably easy to get to. I don't think the location of Nationals is that big of a factor, it's time. I have maybe 10 days a year that I can allow myself to go do something fun. If my options are to go to Hawaii with my family for a week or to go shoot BB guns with some old farts in the woods, you can probably guess what I'm going to do.

So I think it would be a hard sell to convince someone to spend the money on a centralized Field Target National Shooting Center, knowing that if you wildly exceed expectations, you might get 150 people to show up once a year.

What might be interesting is to create 5 regional "Super Grand Prixs". North East, South East, Central, South West, North West. Each region would have a championship (could be part of existing GP matches or stand alone matches) and one of the regional championships would be designated as the Nationals for that year. So the Nationals would rotate around to each region.

Doing it that way wouldn't really be that different from the way it's done now, but it might make the location of nationals more consistent and predictable. And if the regional championships had more weight for national points, it might increase attendance for the regional GP matches. So attendance at Nationals would probably not increase, but attendance at the regional championship matches would be higher than the current GP matches.

I guess what I'm trying to say is rather than try to come up with ways to increase attendance at Nationals (which is just one shoot out of the year), lets increase attendance at ALL the GP matches. When you get more people shooting GPs, you will raise the level of competition nationwide and that will be a positive for the sport.
 
I’m not sure of this centralized location. But on a side topic is a question I’ve pondered for some time. Why do we call it a National Championship when there is no National Qualifiers to get there? I could ask the same for other disciplines like N50 BR. Anyone can show up and compete. They seem like just another competition to me…. When I played Navy Racquetball you had to finish top 2 in your base tournament. Then come in top two in the Navy Regional in order to qualify for the all Navy Championships. We couldn’t just show up to the all Navy and say “hey, I’m here to compete”. Things that make you go hmmm….
 
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It only makes sense to have qualifying if there are more shooters wanting to go than there are places in the match. Like in the UK.

Tim
I don’t have a problem with that, and I’m not sure how it’s done in Canada. But if it’s not qualified for, and not exclusive, then let’s be honest, it’s a “big” open tournament and not really a National Championship. I understand that’s the way it’s done, and I don’t really care either way, but it’s not really a “National” IMHO. The AAFTA GP winners are more National Champions in my book.

So, one way to make it a "real" National: you invite the top ten GP finishers and top 3 from State Championships to compete for the National Championship. Doesn’t really matter if only 20 or 30 show up. They earned their way there. Oh well, just a thought.
 
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I have to travel if I want to shoot FT. nearest match is 4 hours away, then 12, then 16 then 18 hours. It's a time issue for me, not a location issue, so I dont get to compete much (even when my health allows it)

So if there's a "qualifier" then I'll never get to shoot a National match....
Yeah, driving sucks. Not much different than San Diego, where the round trip for an FT match is about 8 hours+, since driving north of LA is not that bad but driving home in LA traffic sucks. I'd almost rather do the 6 hours each way to Phoenix. I think if it makes people feel better to say they shot in a "National", then more power to them. But shooting in a big GP event is just as good, sometimes better...

Let's look at the recent AAFTA "Nationals" in the most popular class in the USA, Hunter. There were 12 shooters. Now let's look at a major FT GP event like the 2022 Sonoran Desert Classic, Hunter Class. There were 22 shooters, almost double. Since both were "open" competitions with no qualifier, which one had the stiffest competition?

And while we're talking FT, how about the Extreme FT GP event held in Utah (August 2022), where they had 60 shooters, or the EFT GP season finale at EBR (October 2022) where they had 80 shooters...? There were three other GP events had leading up to EBR, so they were in effect "qualifiers" for the finale and shooters earned points that were added to their scores at the EBR finale. We considered that a "National" for good reason.
 
I'm not sure what we are trying to fix with a centralized Nationals venue. Is lack of general attendance the issue? Or is it lack of attendance by the "top" shooters?

I mean, field target has about 200 "competitive" shooters in the US. We are a tiny, fringe sport. So the fact that 42 people were willing to fly to Puerto Rico for Nationals was actually pretty impressive. I mean, Oregon only had 56 shooters in 2021. (Although for most people, PR is easier to get to than Oregon).

Pre-Covid nationals had 103 in 2019, which I think is probably the expected attendance going forward assuming the location is reasonably easy to get to. I don't think the location of Nationals is that big of a factor, it's time. I have maybe 10 days a year that I can allow myself to go do something fun. If my options are to go to Hawaii with my family for a week or to go shoot BB guns with some old farts in the woods, you can probably guess what I'm going to do.

So I think it would be a hard sell to convince someone to spend the money on a centralized Field Target National Shooting Center, knowing that if you wildly exceed expectations, you might get 150 people to show up once a year.

What might be interesting is to create 5 regional "Super Grand Prixs". North East, South East, Central, South West, North West. Each region would have a championship (could be part of existing GP matches or stand alone matches) and one of the regional championships would be designated as the Nationals for that year. So the Nationals would rotate around to each region.

Doing it that way wouldn't really be that different from the way it's done now, but it might make the location of nationals more consistent and predictable. And if the regional championships had more weight for national points, it might increase attendance for the regional GP matches. So attendance at Nationals would probably not increase, but attendance at the regional championship matches would be higher than the current GP matches.

I guess what I'm trying to say is rather than try to come up with ways to increase attendance at Nationals (which is just one shoot out of the year), lets increase attendance at ALL the GP matches. When you get more people shooting GPs, you will raise the level of competition nationwide and that will be a positive for the sport.
I'm thinking the potential problem I'm trying to fix is getting more of the top shooters attending the National championships... I thought I made that clear...

.. and possibly increasing attendance of all competitors by having a "special place" that seems to me to be unique in the US where we can have three full courses to handle up to 180 contestants. I don't think any of the existing clubs have a venue available to them that can meet that standard.

The other benefit I can see is that it would not be a venue that the locals shoot all the time... making it a more fair match in my opinion.

Also, it would open up hosting the match to more clubs that don't have any venue to host a GP or National Championship.


Wayne
 
I suppose there's no harm in WISHING...

But sometimes it might be a better idea to accept pretty good reality arrived at through decades of evolution and growth; rather than wishing for more, bigger, better... or just different.

Many ideas suggested in this thread would actually reduce participation, and/or increase complications. Neither of those results are better than the status quo.

For all its shortcomings, many/most of which are amplified by loud and/or repetitious criticisms, the AAFTA structure ain't gonna be improved upon with radical overhaul. By the way, AAFTA does have a process for the submission of ideas and suggestions... and this forum AIN'T IT. Neither is this forum a venue to appeal failed suggestions submitted to the AAFTA BoG.

Nor does beating a dead horse accomplish anything beyond frustration venting.🤬🥵

My point? Be thankful for what you've got!:unsure: It's much better than critics would have you think.
 
I'm thinking the potential problem I'm trying to fix is getting more of the top shooters attending the National championships... I thought I made that clear...

.. and possibly increasing attendance of all competitors by having a "special place" that seems to me to be unique in the US where we can have three full courses to handle up to 180 contestants. I don't think any of the existing clubs have a venue available to them that can meet that standard.

The other benefit I can see is that it would not be a venue that the locals shoot all the time... making it a more fair match in my opinion.

Also, it would open up hosting the match to more clubs that don't have any venue to host a GP or National Championship.


Wayne
just wondering what the
Puerto Rico hosts would think after all their work ? ! would love to see what the event did for them ? did they make money ? lose it ? what hopeful gains in local participation did it inspire ?
 
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just wondering what the
Puerto Rico hosts would think after all their work ? ! would love to see what the event did for them ? did they make money ? lose it ? what hopeful gains in local participation did it inspire ?
Hey BT, I can tell you from experience of being on the Island (PR), 3 or 4 times per year for the last 4 years, and knowing the FT program and all the players there...the work that Pedro Abreau and his helpers did to transform his shooting area, into a FT Course, was massive. Not only did they do it once, the had a hurricane come through a couple weeks before the event was to occur, so they had more work to clean up the destruction and downed trees, etc. I am betting that the little bit of money they made (not sure how much if any) was not worth the massive amount of work they had to do. AAFTA was also very busy coming up with awesome raffle prizes, etc, to help with their fund raiser. Theres a massive amount of work done by all for the last match of the year (the national). As far as local participation gains on their island, there were none. Everyone of the island that does shoot usually already has their kids involved, and it did not result in any new shooters being added to the Aguadilla FT Club, Aguada FT Club or the Ceiba FT Club.
 
Hey BT, I can tell you from experience of being on the Island (PR), 3 or 4 times per year for the last 4 years, and knowing the FT program and all the players there...the work that Pedro Abreau and his helpers did to transform his shooting area, into a FT Course, was massive. Not only did they do it once, the had a hurricane come through a couple weeks before the event was to occur, so they had more work to clean up the destruction and downed trees, etc. I am betting that the little bit of money they made (not sure how much if any) was not worth the massive amount of work they had to do. AAFTA was also very busy coming up with awesome raffle prizes, etc, to help with their fund raiser. Theres a massive amount of work done by all for the last match of the year (the national). As far as local participation gains on their island, there were none. Everyone of the island that does shoot usually already has their kids involved, and it did not result in any new shooters being added to the Aguadilla FT Club, Aguada FT Club or the Ceiba FT Club.
wow , ok thanks , hope for the best future for PR air gunning ,
 
wow , ok thanks , hope for the best future for PR air gunning ,
PR Airgunning is strong, and the majority of their shooters shoot WFTF. They have a strong field of shooters also, there are not too many average shooters there. Most are very good and win alot. The island is only 100x35 miles,, so potential shooters is limited. They do have some great shooting areas tho. And theyre ara great bunch of guys who I consider my brothers.
 
So, one way to make it a "real" National: you invite the top ten GP finishers and top 3 from State Championships to compete for the National Championship. Doesn’t really matter if only 20 or 30 show up. They earned their way there. Oh well, just a thought.
The top ten finishers in the GP circuit are always invited as are all shooters in the US. We do it the same way in Canada. There are simply not enough people willing or able to attend.

I cannot understand why you would say it is not a Nationals match. Even the countries in the WFTF that have qualification to attend the match are few and far between. The Worlds are mostly attended by those who can afford to do so. I have attended the US Nationals on many occasions, starting in 2000 at Minnesota, and really enjoyed it every time I did. I have attended every Canadian Nationals since the inception of the match. With the US Nationals in the East next year, I will most likely attend that one if there is an opening for me.

The feeling at Nationals matches is just different and unique; I like it.

Tim
 
Thanks for your opinion Tim, I appreciate differing viewpoints. IMHO, almost every other “sport” with a National Championship has qualifying rounds or requirements to get in. NRL-22 Nationals, and US Amateur Golf Championship to name two of many. A better and more accurate name would be the AAFTA Open Championships.
 
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I'm thinking the potential problem I'm trying to fix is getting more of the top shooters attending the National championships... I thought I made that clear...

.. and possibly increasing attendance of all competitors by having a "special place" that seems to me to be unique in the US where we can have three full courses to handle up to 180 contestants. I don't think any of the existing clubs have a venue available to them that can meet that standard.

The other benefit I can see is that it would not be a venue that the locals shoot all the time... making it a more fair match in my opinion.

Also, it would open up hosting the match to more clubs that don't have any venue to host a GP or National Championship.


Wayne
Thanks for the clarification. I don't concern myself too much with the top shooters attending Nationals because it's such a small sample size. Of the top 20 FT shooters in the US, half are going to have something better to do that week than fly somewhere and compete for a plaque regardless of where the match is located. Hell, the Nationals were an hour away from me 10 years ago and I didn't go because I was busy.

I think the way to increase attendance for the "top" shooters is to increase attendance for ALL shooters. Make the event something special that people don't want to miss. More manufacturers and vendors with demo tents. More pageantry (if you will). More Youtube videos.
Use EBR as a model for how to get people interested in going to an airgun match. (But ideally without the big prize money, which has turned me off of EFT).

Or leave it the way it is, which is fine. A small National championship for a small niche sport. Bigger isn't necessarily better.

Upon reflection, I think it's safe to say that with the current structure of AAFTA, there will not be significant growth in the Nationals or US FT in general. Not saying that's a bad thing or calling any of the current board members out, they are doing a fine job. I'm saying that all of the big-time shooting sports have paid staff and a for-profit mentality. They have to grow to a certain level to sustain themselves. AAFTA is a small, volunteer organization and the National championships reflect that. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, that's just reality. I'm not saying that a little "sporting clays" style growth wouldn't be good, though. Our sport is always in danger of "aging out".

Two examples of sports that have declined due to lack of growth: skeet and silhouette. Skeet died (or is in the process of dying) because younger shooters with families and jobs couldn't justify attending a 3 day shoot when they could have as much or more fun at a 1 day sporting clays shoot. I was in the middle of both sports when this happened. (Side note: There is no "qualifier" for skeet or sporting clays Nationals. You pay your money, you show up, you shoot. Adding roadblocks to attend the biggest event of the year would be idiotic from a business perspective.)

I don't know as much about silhouette because it died before I got a chance to get involved, but I suspect it was a combination of the sport having a steep learning curve and the greater availability of other styles of shooting (PRS, 3 gun, etc). Looking at the rise and fall of silhouette shooting would probably teach us some things about how to keep FT viable for the future.

Back to the point (kind of), the way to grow the sport is to get younger. I'm not talking juniors (although that helps), I'm talking people in their 30s and 40s. I'm not sure how you get that age group into FT, but I suspect that better social media at the local match level would help. We have been word of mouth for too long. Every time I go to the range (where we have monthly FT matches) I have to explain field target to people that have never heard of it. Yep, members of a shooting club that hosts monthly matches, GP matches and an annual airgun show have never heard of field target. So I think, from a short-term grass roots perspective, it's on me to grow my local matches. Get enough new people hooked and that will increase regional GP attendance. Once the new shooters are committed to local matches and regional GP matches, the talent pool for Nationals is that much bigger.

To summarize: The status quo is fine. If you want more shooters, you need to make more shooters. "If you build it-they will come" only works in the movies.
 
Hey BT, I can tell you from experience of being on the Island (PR), 3 or 4 times per year for the last 4 years, and knowing the FT program and all the players there...the work that Pedro Abreau and his helpers did to transform his shooting area, into a FT Course, was massive. Not only did they do it once, the had a hurricane come through a couple weeks before the event was to occur, so they had more work to clean up the destruction and downed trees, etc. I am betting that the little bit of money they made (not sure how much if any) was not worth the massive amount of work they had to do. AAFTA was also very busy coming up with awesome raffle prizes, etc, to help with their fund raiser. Theres a massive amount of work done by all for the last match of the year (the national). As far as local participation gains on their island, there were none. Everyone of the island that does shoot usually already has their kids involved, and it did not result in any new shooters being added to the Aguadilla FT Club, Aguada FT Club or the Ceiba FT Club.
This is part of my concerns I'm trying to solve with the proposal...

It's really hard for a club to host the Nationals and have a chance at breaking even. The new rules I helped push through that has AAFTA handling all the vendor deals for prizes helps a lot, but the venue issue is still a huge problem.

There are less than ten clubs I would guess, that have access to a venue where they can have two courses and a two/three day event.

Weather is also a really big problem in some of the areas for those clubs that can host the big event.... as shown here.

What if we could find a location where it's really nice on average in the fall... somewhere with less humidity, and chance of damaging storms that time of year?

Most clubs loose money when they host the event now... just ask them.
I've hosted two national championships and I have a good understanding of what it takes to break even on the event...

A lot of free labor.

At least 100, 150 would be a lot better, paying contestants (I feel like I should give discounts on match fees to those who help with labor to set up the courses and run the event).

A facility that doesn't need much capital investment to make it ready for the competition.

AAFTA handling the vendor negotiations for prizes.. (that's finally happening) that creates a healthy auction result.


If the location has pleasant weather, had camping onsite, reasonable motels nearby, room for three course, and in the same location every year, I think that competitors would make it "the thing to do" every year... a lot more than they do now.

We might be able to get 150 to attend each year.. in my humble opinion. And in doing so, open up hosting the event to all clubs with enough members to do most of the labor. I'm sure other clubs would join in the work load as well.

The hosting club could more likely count on making a few dollars for their club under such a scenario.

Wayne
 
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This is part of my concerns I'm trying to solve with the proposal...

It's really hard for a club to host the Nationals and have a chance at breaking even. The new rules I helped push through that has AAFTA handling all the vendor deals for prizes helps a lot, but the venue issue is still a huge problem.

There are less than ten clubs I would guess, that have access to a venue where they can have two courses and a two/three day event.

Weather is also a really big problem in some of the areas for those clubs that can host the big event.... as shown here.

What if we could find a location where it's really nice on average in the fall... somewhere with less humidity, and chance of damaging storms that time of year?

Most clubs loose money when they host the event now... just ask them.
I've hosted two national championships and I have a good understanding of what it takes to break even on the event...

A lot of free labor.

At least 100, 150 would be a lot better, paying contestants (I feel like I should give discounts on match fees to those who help with labor to set up the courses and run the event).

A facility that doesn't need much capital investment to make it ready for the competition.

AAFTA handling the vendor negotiations for prizes.. (that's finally happening) that creates a healthy auction result.


If the location has pleasant weather, had camping onsite, reasonable motels nearby, room for three course, and in the same location every year, I think that competitors would make it "the thing to do" every year... a lot more than they do now.

We might be able to get 150 to attend each year.. in my humble opinion. And in doing so, open up hosting the event to all clubs with enough members to do most of the labor. I'm sure other clubs would join in the work load as well.

The hosting club could more likely count on making a few dollars for their club under such a scenario.

Wayne
AND, it would be more of an actual yearly finals/championship if held in a place where more field target competitors are able to attend.

Sadly, I think it's somewhat the same thing that has happened with the Olympics in the last couple decades. It was once a prestigious award for a city/country to be chosen to "host" the Olympics. But now hardly anyone evens submits proposals to host b/c its such a massive amount of work, in addition to being an overall financial loss.