Should AAFTA arrange for a single centralized site for the National Championshps?

[Keith Rush]

I’m just getting into FT myself at 49. Spent a lot of last 15-20 years on ships and overseas. Deciding on a gun at the moment, but hoping to start in the new year. I’m in Jacksonville, Fl, but plan to attend as many GP events as possible. Closest clubs to me are 5 hours away in Atlanta or Arcadia, Florida. I would love to be able to compete in the Nationals going forward. Centralized would make it logistically easier coming from Florida or either cost, but if location is on the west coast, I plan to go there as well. How do the guy’s overseas do it? They seem to have a ton of people shooting.

Keith

 

[Franklink]

I’m just getting into FT myself at 49. Spent a lot of last 15-20 years on ships and overseas. Deciding on a gun at the moment, but hoping to start in the new year. I’m in Jacksonville, Fl, but plan to attend as many GP events as possible. Closest clubs to me are 5 hours away in Atlanta or Arcadia, Florida. I would love to be able to compete in the Nationals going forward. Centralized would make it logistically easier coming from Florida or either cost, but if location is on the west coast, I plan to go there as well. How do the guy’s overseas do it? They seem to have a ton of people shooting.

Keith

In a similar discussion a few months back somebody pointed out how small England is, relative to the United States, and the much greater density of ft clubs per area that they have there. I understand there are ft shooters in other parts of the world, but seems England is sorta the hub, at least for the WFTF flavor of FT. I'm guessing that one could drive across the entire country of England in less than 12-14? hrs versus 45hrs, non stop for the US.

Then there's the political climate. Airguns are a much bigger deal where firearm ownership is severely restricted.

 

[AirNGasman]

"How do the guy’s overseas do it?"

Considering many countries are little larger than an average-sized Texas county , I have Texans attending my monthly matches that drive farther within Texas than would be the case for some overseas travelers crossing multiple borders. That, in itself, is flattering; but the fact I'm drawing from 3-5 other states is even more-so. Here's what my Cajun shooters see as they enter Texas-

Ummm... BTW, that's MILES, not Kilos! (857 miles = 1,388 KILOS!)


Not a bad thing that folks are willing to invest time, travel, vacation, and $$$ to pursue their passions. It's simply a matter of priorities. Life is too short to not invest in such harmless indulgence(s)... NOWADAYS!

 

[Kdog]

I like the way it is currently set up...clubs have to put a bid in for it. Traveling to a new location and that club possibly benefitting financially from the event is a good thing in my opinion. This way different clubs have the same opportunity to benefit from the event. Next year's Nationals near Cleveland Ohio will be interesting to see how many people attend, being there it is a fairly centralized Mid West location. Flying into Cleveland should be very easy for those that are too far to drive and there is plenty of Hotels near in the area.

It is always hard to attend a event if it is not within a reasonable driving distance for you. This country being as big as it will always be a problem for me to attend events that I would have to fly to.

 

[beerthief]

every FT event is an overnight affair for me . unless i wake at 3 AM drive 3 hours to a set FT range . i live in the middle
I think to grow the sport we shooters have to figure out practice lanes at home AND invite near by shooters to come in , shoot 1 or 2 lanes ,reset targets and repeat . MY friend 1.5 hours away in another state has invited me for learning more and practice . IF i had targets that would stand up to .22LR pb's im sure i could set 10 lanes up at my gun club , "but not for BB guns "

 

[stann]

Then there's the political climate. Airguns are a much bigger deal where firearm ownership is severely restricted.

Considering many countries are little larger than an average-sized Texas county

I come from such a country , and I totally agree with you both. Three hours driving to a competition was a little bit too much for me but now I am happy if I had to drive only 5 hours. And let's be honest, you cannot anticipate a certain growth in the sport on a regular basis, having in mind the fact that the average American would prefer to go to the local gun club and burn some powder, instead of driving 5 or 6 hours to a single day shooting with a BB gun. And there is one other thing that I find a little bit strange. Where are the ladies? I have been shooting here for a year or so, and I have never seen a single lady to compete. Maybe just once. Yes, you have your diamond in the women's FT - Lauren Parsons, an incredible shooter, but that doesn't mean you should stop with her. In my country we usually have two days matches, once a month. We have some training between them, which is a single day event. And it's fair enough to say that going to an FT match is pretty much a family thing. Like a little getaway for the weekend, or stress relief, if you'd like. So, no wonder that our wives shoot along with us. Well, you talk about money and about breaking even at the end of the event. Money is always an issue, but not the volunteers. We have a bunch of incredible guys who are always ready and willing to sacrifice their time to set up the course and get everything ready for the competition. We pay small fee, just like you do, but when it comes to a big and important event, like an Open, the fee is much bigger, and that's the way it should be. It's once a year after all. I apologize for being off the topic, just trying to compare the way FT is done here, to the way we do it in a small country overseas.
Happy Thanksgiving!

Stan

 

[scotton]

What if we could find a location where it's really nice on average in the fall... somewhere with less humidity, and chance of damaging storms that time of year?

Most clubs loose money when they host the event now... just ask them.
I've hosted two national championships and I have a good understanding of what it takes to break even on the event...

A lot of free labor.

At least 100, 150 would be a lot better, paying contestants (I feel like I should give discounts on match fees to those who help with labor to set up the courses and run the event).

A facility that doesn't need much capital investment to make it ready for the competition.

AAFTA handling the vendor negotiations for prizes.. (that's finally happening) that creates a healthy auction result.


If the location has pleasant weather, had camping onsite, reasonable motels nearby, room for three course, and in the same location every year, I think that competitors would make it "the thing to do" every year... a lot more than they do now.

We might be able to get 150 to attend each year.. in my humble opinion. And in doing so, open up hosting the event to all clubs with enough members to do most of the labor. I'm sure other clubs would join in the work load as well.

The hosting club could more likely count on making a few dollars for their club under such a scenario.

Wayne

Couple of problems with this in my opinion. Finding a centrally located area with guaranteed nice weather in the fall? Good luck. Closest thing I can think of would be DFW or Oklahoma City, and even then the weather can be a crap shoot.

The other issue is volunteers. The perceived problem is not enough attendance at the Nationals, so the perceived solution is to try to convince a bunch of people to travel to Nationals and work? For free? We can't get people to drive 20 minutes once a month to help set up our local matches, how would we get those people to fly to Ohio or Colorado and spend a few days setting up a match?

I hope I'm not coming off like some of these old guys that yell at clouds, I do appreciate the discussion and exchange of ideas. I just think this is trying to fix a problem from the wrong direction. I would love to see a centrally located national shooting center for airguns, I just don't see how the current FT population in the US could support such a thing.

I see that the Pyramyd Air Cup is coming back next year after a 4 year hiatus. Maybe the solution is the Pyramyd Air National Field Target Championship (and barbecue).

 

[Motorhead]

Couple of problems with this in my opinion. Finding a centrally located area with guaranteed nice weather in the fall? Good luck. Closest thing I can think of would be DFW or Oklahoma City, and even then the weather can be a crap shoot.

The other issue is volunteers. The perceived problem is not enough attendance at the Nationals, so the perceived solution is to try to convince a bunch of people to travel to Nationals and work? For free? We can't get people to drive 20 minutes once a month to help set up our local matches, how would we get those people to fly to Ohio or Colorado and spend a few days setting up a match?

I hope I'm not coming off like some of these old guys that yell at clouds, I do appreciate the discussion and exchange of ideas. I just think this is trying to fix a problem from the wrong direction. I would love to see a centrally located national shooting center for airguns, I just don't see how the current FT population in the US could support such a thing.

I see that the Pyramyd Air Cup is coming back next year after a 4 year hiatus. Maybe the solution is the Pyramyd Air National Field Target Championship (and barbecue).

Yes the VOLUNTEER issue is HUGE !!!
In our Nano sport of Field Target nearly all those who would or could help are shooters themselves.
At many of our venues such as GP's, State championship a lot of clubs have trouble getting help & the help required a lot of times requires someone with knowledge of the game we play, as well have somewhat normal mobility / strengths to do some physical work. Too many old guys willing but unable sadly.

Clubs that have affiliation with a large shooting facility have much larger pools of folks crossing over from other shooting venues to help in another.
Small clubs that operate more alone really can struggle with this Volunteer issue.

Just thoughts ....

 

[AirNGasman]

I'm sure we can improve on AAFTA's structure, rules, and National Championships approach if we just follow the yellow brick road.

Problem is, yellow looks gray through rose-colored glasses.

 

[scotton]

As punishment for his crimes against humanity, I hereby submit Ranchito Robinson as the permanent host for all National Championships in the future. It may be a little small for 3 full courses, but it makes up for it by being hard to get to and overrun with viscous dogs (sorryy Maggye). You may think I spelled vicious wrong, but I did actually mean viscous.

 

[AirNGasman]

As punishment for his crimes against humanity, I hereby submit Ranchito Robinson as the permanent host for all National Championships in the future. It may be a little small for 3 full courses, but it makes up for it by being hard to get to and overrun with viscous dogs (sorryy Maggye). You may think I spelled vicious wrong, but I did actually mean viscous.

Two men have died for spelling that viscous dog's name wrong, Bud; bled to death from ankle maulings! Something about their blood viscosity.

BTW, Maggyy can sense free-bleeders.

 

[scotton]

Tell Maagggyyeye that I'm sorry. Sorry that she rescued a weird human. Sometimes adopting shelter humans can be a crap shoot.

 

[K]

So the fact that 42 people were willing to fly to Puerto Rico for Nationals was actually pretty impressive. I mean, Oregon only had 56 shooters in 2021. (Although for most people, PR is easier to get to than Oregon).

The real numbers were about 12-15 CONUS fly-ins. The rest of the 42 were local guys.

The turnout from CONUS was embarrassing. I guess we've got a lot more guys who won't put their gun on an airplane than I thought.

Regarding the 2021 NATS, we were lucky we had a NATS at all. We're forgetting ( that's a good thing) how much of a fuster-cluck the pandemic put on the organizers and those who might have wanted to attend who were probably concerned about getting their money refunded on travel expenses if Gavin Newsome put the kabosh on the event.

I would have cancelled as soon as it was obvious that a poor turnout was to be expected. Instead the west coast clubs got together and soldiered on, earning my respect. I had a blast there, probably one of the most fun NATS I've attended.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Getting back to the OP.

Wayne, I don't see that working.

The setup crew problem is huge. Not just considering labor, but from an equipment perspective also. IN that kind of a situation setup crews need equipment like gators, bush hogs, pickup trucks, in addition to the typical gear we use. Without that stuff, you're going to need them on site for a whole lot longer.

That's not a problem at a local club because people can just show up over a few weekends starting 4-6 weeks in advance. Once you travel to a setup the hotel costs will eat you alive unless you equip yourself to knock it out quickly.

 

[Airgunoregon]

The real numbers were about 12-15 CONUS fly-ins. The rest of the 42 were local guys.

The turnout from CONUS was embarrassing. I guess we've got a lot more guys who won't put their gun on an airplane than I thought.

Regarding the 2021 NATS, we were lucky we had a NATS at all. We're forgetting ( that's a good thing) how much of a fuster-cluck the pandemic put on the organizers and those who might have wanted to attend who were probably concerned about getting their money refunded on travel expenses if Gavin Newsome put the kabosh on the event.

I would have cancelled as soon as it was obvious that a poor turnout was to be expected. Instead the west coast clubs got together and soldiered on, earning my respect. I had a blast there, probably one of the most fun NATS I've attended.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Getting back to the OP.

Wayne, I don't see that working.

The setup crew problem is huge. Not just considering labor, but from an equipment perspective also. IN that kind of a situation setup crews need equipment like gators, bush hogs, pickup trucks, in addition to the typical gear we use. Without that stuff, you're going to need them on site for a whole lot longer.

That's not a problem at a local club because people can just show up over a few weekends starting 4-6 weeks in advance. Once you travel to a setup the hotel costs will eat you alive unless you equip yourself to knock it out quickly.

I hear you K, but I was hoping AAFTA could address that issue in the deal made with the venue owners... I was hoping the location would allow onsite camping, and have a small building we could rent/lease for storage of such equipment as you mentioned. Or allow us to build a shed onsite. I might be able to donate an electric golf cart.

The idea is that it is a venue that has everything there already, and a place where any club with or without their own venue/targets etc, could bid and host a Nationals, verses what we have now where only 4 or 5 clubs nationally have such a venue to host our championship matches.

Traveling IS a burden, no doubt, and it limits attendance now a whole lot. I'm hoping the onsite camping will offset that, for both those flying in and driving to the event. If we can save on motel fees and enjoy camping with friends, it really changes things from my point of view.

When there is onsite camping, even some of the motel folks hang out around the campfire bullpoopting until bedtime.. it's fun to retrace the day's hits and misses around a campfire for most of us. This also works for the setup time period... planning the course to make it fun and challenging.

We see very few competitors willing to travel from one coast to the other, and maybe folks won't even travel half way, they are only willing travel a couple hours even for a Nationals.. I don't know,

I'm hoping the event can become so much fun, it becomes worth it to travel, and then it can evolve into one folks just don't want to miss... and if it can handle three course, allowing for up to 180 competitors, then it really becomes a positive cash flow for the hosting club... which it is not most times for most clubs... now.

Wayne

 

[K]

I hear you K, but I was hoping AAFTA could address that issue in the deal made with the venue owners... I was hoping the location would allow onsite camping, and have a small building we could rent/lease for storage of such equipment as you mentioned. Or allow us to build a shed onsite. I might be able to donate an electric golf cart.

The idea is that it is a venue that has everything there already, and a place where any club with or without their own venue/targets etc, could bid and host a Nationals, verses what we have now where only 4 or 5 clubs nationally have such a venue to host our championship matches.

Traveling IS a burden, no doubt, and it limits attendance now a whole lot. I'm hoping the onsite camping will offset that, for both those flying in and driving to the event. If we can save on motel fees and enjoy camping with friends, it really changes things from my point of view.

When there is onsite camping, even some of the motel folks hang out around the campfire bullpoopting until bedtime.. it's fun to retrace the day's hits and misses around a campfire for most of us. This also works for the setup time period... planning the course to make it fun and challenging.

We see very few competitors willing to travel from one coast to the other, and maybe folks won't even travel half way, they are only willing travel a couple hours even for a Nationals.. I don't know,

I'm hoping the event can become so much fun, it becomes worth it to travel, and then it can evolve into one folks just don't want to miss... and if it can handle three course, allowing for up to 180 competitors, then it really becomes a positive cash flow for the hosting club... which it is not most times for most clubs... now.

Wayne

Last I heard the Heflin FT area was open for any club to use for a small annual fee. Great place for the NATS if it's still available in 2025.

Still, I like going to different places every year.

K

 

[thomasair]

Heflin s a great FT place.

The NRA Whittington center in Raton, NM would also be a fantastic yearly meeting place for FT Nationals. 35,000 acres of every terrain type you can imagine plus inexpensive competitor housing for over 200 shooters, 2 campgrounds with full facilities, and beautiful fall weather. It’s an awesome place.

Mike

 

[Garrettkq]

Heflin s a great FT place.

The NRA Whittington center in Raton, NM would also be a fantastic yearly meeting place for FT Nationals. 35,000 acres of every terrain type you can imagine plus inexpensive competitor housing for over 200 shooters, 2 campgrounds with full facilities, and beautiful fall weather. It’s an awesome place.

Mike

True. Absolutely incredible range. But genuinely in the middle of nowhere with nobody nearby.

 

[thomasair]

Very true.

 

[K]

True. Absolutely incredible range. But genuinely in the middle of nowhere with nobody nearby.

We're a cult anyway.

 

[Airgunoregon]

What if we had the NRA New Mexico location as an option for clubs that don't have a suitable venue for the championship match, so more clubs could host a nationals? Maybe every other year or something... depending on how many clubs with venues are offering to host.

Having the event on one coast or the other ends up with the Nationals being mostly a regional championships because a lot of the top shooters aren't willing to travel that far to compete.

The NRA site seems like a reasonable distance for everyone, and if it has camping and onsite housing... wow! sounds super to me.


Wayne