• Please consider adding your "Event" to the Calendar located on our Home page!

Sizing to the largest Caliber being used in a competition. Yes or no??? Explain

Jump to latest Follow Reply
A2ZBen

A2ZBen

Member
May 20, 2015
85
3
Arizona
Please explain your position on merits/facts etc no EMOTIONS. 

USARB in the 25 Meter matches allows .22 .20 and .177 Rules state to resized to .22 caliber.

Extreme Benchrest 75,100yard allows .177,20,.22,.25,.30,.35 Calibers and they size to .35 caliber.

both these instances score outward so please keep discussion apples to apples. Inward scoring is oranges, not apples.
 
No.

That's handicapping just like if you were bowling against someone with a higher average.

A miss is a miss is a miss...you don't have your projectile automatically get larger if it's going to miss whatever game animal you're shooting at.

That's where a shooter needs to be very conscientious of what caliber he or she chooses to compete with.

Personally, I select whatever will give me the least amount of wind drift - that may be based on smaller profile or more weight - both are factored by what velocity they will be shot at that still gives me a decent shot count without refilling.

I say NO to averaging to the largest caliber...run what you brung and either you know how to shoot it or you don't.
 
Upvote 0
@ratsniper and @joeshooter, some food for thought. Think of it this way. If I'm shooting a .30 caliber gun, and my competitor is shooting a .22 caliber gun, say at EBR at 75 or 100 yards. I hit the target near the ten ring, the middle (center) of my pellet is .13 inches from the ten ring. That means the EDGE of my pellet is touching the ten ring since my pellet radius is .15 inches, and I score a 10. My competitor shoots EXACTLY the same shot, the center of his pellet is in the EXACT same position as mine. Since his pellet is .22 inches, it only extends .11 inches, and is still .02 inches from the ten ring, so he scores a 9. Does this seem fair to you? Luckily, almost all competitions plug for the largest caliber being used, so the competitions are fair... ;)

Mike
 
Upvote 0
@Centercut...Understood. After the scenerio you presented and looking at the margins each pellet head size presents, I understand the concept of averaging. BUT, to make it as completely fair and as balanced as possible, the averaging should be on the SMALLEST caliber, if at all possible. I'm no mathematician nor know how the averaging is even done; but being that caliber allowance in most competitions is based on target distance, shorter distances being limited to the smaller calibers and the larger calibers being allowed in the longer distances for obvious reasons; averaging to the smallest caliber would give more of a depiction of shooter proficiency. Does this make sense?
 
Upvote 0
Everything should be fair and equal, not to mention consistent. Since it would be very difficult to find dead nuts center on any pellet size, then lets make the holes they leave equal by sizing them the same. We should not be penalized for shooting a different cal. than the other competitors, i'm already handy capping myself by shooting a pellet that is smaller lighter and more susceptible to wind drift, especially here in Arizona. 

P.S. PLAY NICE
 
Upvote 0
@joeshooter.. What you say makes sense, but it would be hard if not impossible to do it that way. When you plug a card, you use a metal plug that is very slightly larger in diameter than the largest caliber that is allowed in the competition. Then the plug is inserted into the hole, and the score read. To do this smaller would be logistically pretty much impossible. Especially scoring hundreds of cards in a competition.

@larry-s... Concur. Not sure why you would handicap yourself? I didn't see anyone handicapping themselves at the 50 yard BR event at EBR (which was Unlimited Class by the way, .22 cal. maximum). And in most 25M BR competitions, there are individual classes, such as Light Varmint (LV), Heavy Varmint (HV), Open, and Unlimited. So no one is really handicapping themselves since you're shooting against others at similar power levels. I've heard people saying that shooting .177 at the EBR 50Y BR event was "handicapping" themselves, but IMHO that just wasn't true, since the ones I do know that shot .177 shot the 16 grain JSB Beast at 950 FPS or close to 35 FPE. I wouldn't exactly call that handicapping themselves... And to top it off, the winner in 2018 at the EBR 50Y event shot .177. ;)
 
Upvote 0
I prefer to ride the wind! Give me the 75 and 100 yard contest any day of the week. Our guns are now performing better than ever, we can now watch that pellet float through the air.

If you only look at hole size then – absolutely in my humble opinion, the rule of largest caliber should be used to equalize the sport. Let’s make it as fair as possible.

I have seen in the wind in AZ, that any pellet gets quite a bit movement at that distance. Watching two shooters, top notch in the sport and using the same hole size 30 cal. I witnessed the 22 cal shooter outshoot the 30 cal. in the same winds. My thought is it was a fair contest!

The other odd thing that I believe is a factor in the sport is the BC of the pellets used. I believe that it has something to do with the accuracy at 100. Not sure how much the weight has to do with the accuracy with wind, but I am assuming that the heavier weight, the less movement, although I haven’t proved it yet.

Therefore, if someone wants to use a light weight, .177 pellet and shoot against a .30 or .35 cal in a 75 or 100 yard match – more power to them. Give them the ability to make it as fair as possible. Let them size the hole to match the largest caliber shot in the match. Don’t handicap / penalize them or give those with a bigger round have an advantage. J
 
Upvote 0
In archery tournaments lots of guys used the largest diameter arrow shafts they could get to maximize the possibility of hitting a higher scoring ring...the guys shooting 'normal' size arrow shafts didn't get a bump up in score for being close to the next scoring ring.

With that being said do you think a .22 34 gr Jumbo Beast has a higher resistance to wind drift than a .25 34 gr MkII? I do...because it has less surface area for the crosswind to act upon & it's the same weight of the .25 Cal pellet = advantage for .22 Cal.

I'll just agree to disagree with averaging...either you can shoot your gun well or you can't.
 
Upvote 0
OK great. I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. Maybe we can tell Claudio Flores, EBR 2018 winner, that he should probably have come in third because the two guys behind him (one point and three points) both shot .30 caliber rifles? And his scores were plugged to the higher calibers of his runner up and third place finisher? Actually, to be honest, I have a feeling he can shoot his gun... ;) P.S., it isn't "averaging", its plugging the holes in the target to a consistent diameter so everyone has the same size holes... FYI, no one I know shot the Beasts, everyone shooting .22 shot the RD Monsters, at 25.4 grain. These have about the same BC as the .25 Heavy MK2 34 grain and the .30 JSB Heavy 50.1 grain pellets.
 
Upvote 0
The Quail Creek Airgun Club in Green Valley, AZ. will have a 75 and 100 yd competition for the first time at the Saguaro Classic on April 26 - 28. Knowing there is no "official" scoring standard for airgun competition at these distances, we researched the methods used for bench rest centerfire. Since multiple calibers are used at varied distances, we felt the scoring method used may be appropriate for airgun competition at longer distances. We were aware of the scoring method used at the EBR and we had a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of both methods. We use the USARB scoring system every day for scoring 25m and 50 yd targets and accept this as a standard set for the calibers allowed. We are limited to a maximum of .308 caliber on our range. With that in mind, if a competitor chose to use a .177 caliber in the competition, the .308 scoring gauge would increase the hole size by nearly 75%. We thought that was a bit of a stretch. As a result of our findings, the Board of the QCAGC has adopted the following method for scoring the 75 and 100 yd competitions.

1. The targets will be scored with the caliber the competitor chooses to shoot. For example, if a competitor is shooting a .25 caliber airgun, the shot will be scored in that caliber.

2. When shot placement cannot be determined by visual inspection, a scoring gauge (plug) of the caliber used, will determine the score.

3. If the flange on the gauge touches a ring of higher value, you score the higher value.

4. The Scorer shall determine if the Referees are needed to decide the shot placement.

This was a long way of saying No, but we feel this is the fairest method to use when a wide range of calibers are in use. It is the shooters choice to pick the gun and the caliber that he or she feel they can best compete with.
 
Upvote 0
@bull_mtn, thanks for the input. While I don't agree, and feel that you and your club are truly "missing the point", it IS your club and your tournament. I'll be there, and shooting a .30 caliber gun since that gives me an advantage over the smaller calibers. 

Plugging targets to a common size levels or equalizes the playing field, and makes the tournament truly fair. It has nothing to do with .177 getting plugged to 70% larger than the original hole. It has everything to do with the CENTER of the pellet hole, and making sure the true mark is scored. Isn't that what we do? Center to center groups, hitting it right in the center, etc.??? 

The center is where your pellet hits, the edge of the hole means nothing. But the only way to score it is to measure to the edge of the hole nearest the inside scoring line. So we use the edge of the hole, but what we're really measuring is how close the center is to the scoring line. So measuring the edge only, and not plugging to a common size gives the larger pellets a distinct advantage. A .177 has to have the center closer to the scoring line than a .30 caliber pellet to get the same score. So to get the same score, the .177 has to shoot more accurately.

You may think "does it really make that much of a difference?" Look at it this way. At EBR 2018, the three top scores (2 Pro and 1 Sportsman) were within 1 point of each other. Winner at 215, the other two at 214. However, the two at 214 were shooting .30 caliber guns, and the winner shot .22. I'm fairly certain that had EBR not plugged to a common size, Claudio Flores would not have won the EBR Main Event in 2018.

So like I said, of course I won't handicap myself, and I'll be shooting my .30 FX Bobcat Mk2 instead of my .22 EDgun R3 Long. 
 
Upvote 0
When you are using multiple calibers and shooting the same (paper) target, you ALWAYS use the largest caliber plug in order to keep the scoring fair and equal.

This was made evident to me years ago when shooting international centerfire (ISU) pistol. the largest caliber allowed is .38 special. I was shooting .32 cal S&W long in a Walther GSP-C. All of my shots were plugged with a .32 cal plug with a .38 cal outer ring. It is the only fair way to score when shooting differing calibers on the same target, otherwise the larger caliber would have a distinct advantage.

Conversely, international air pistol is only shot using .177 so that is a no brainer.

IF you are using, say a .25 pellet for shooting paper targets, such as benchrest, you would plug for .25 caliber. you would need the plugs that accomodate .22,, .20, and .177 calibers, but with the .25 caliber outer ring in order to make scoring fair for everyone.

Scoring on paper for "closest to the center" is done this way because the shot is calculated based on the center of the shot fired, not the outside edge.

Hope this helps.
 
Upvote 0
Power of purchase,

"If it is wrong there it is wrong here"

I do not understand why you would do this when USARB general practice is as a RULE in the 25 meters and 50-yard events to score to largest caliber allowed. Why would you rewrite the general intentions/rules?????/??? I would think you would as a club that charges its members, you would at least take a vote or get some kind of input from your shooters. Can you please explain your reasoning for not communicating this when the event was originally discussed and now suddenly it has changed???????
 
  • Like
Reactions: Strever
Upvote 0
I feel this way. If you use a smaller caliber then increase the size of the target for the smaller caliber. Centerfire BR is done by group size and not by score so caliber doesn't matter as every thing is done from the center of the group. If you are shooting for score the the largest caliber plug with the appropriate outer ring should be used. Obviously a larger pellet will score higher on the same place on the card. Even Ray Charles can see this reasoning. If a person only has the funds to have one caliber and chooses to compete be thankful that he is helping your club and make it as fair for him as anyone else. Otherwise you won't see him back shooting and contributing to your club ..

Also so no one has an edge of bench placement I say why not randomly draw bench numbers to keep that on the up and up too. At certain clubs the bench placement has a factor on how the wind hits the range. So again if we are talking fair this is a good way of starting out. We are not playing or competing for millions of dollars. It is for bragging rights only. You may get a $2 pin or medallion. We want to get more shooters involved not run them away! When the clubs play these silly childish games it turns me off and I wont be back! Again this is my Humble Opinion. I have been in many shooting disciplines and the thing that runs new shooters and even seasoned shooter off is making it to where it isn't fun anymore. It shouldn't become an equipment game even though it does become that as a shooter gets better he wants better equipment. I say make it fair for everyone concerned and keep the shooters happy! You will be rewarded in the end game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Strever
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Resources
Menu