Skout EPOCH Update - Dec 16th 2022

Looks like that grammerman dude got yeeted from the forum. His posts are all gone. Well that was kinda fun while it lasted. lol

Let's just try to be excited about new tech and progress in the hobby that we all love. And even though OP banned me from his FB group, I am still thankful for his updates here! 😘
Was waiting for the yeet… pretty sure he was dealing with mental health issues, his behavioral pattern was a near dead match for a manic episode. Here’s DSM-5 criteria- https://www.pediatriconcall.com/calculators/dsm-5-manic-episode-criteria

Also @AirShootist - am I right in understanding a spool valve is better than a poppet valve due to the direction of force to push the valve into an open state. The spool moves laterally against the pressure where the poppet valve is pushed against the pressure…? Still early in my understanding of the mechanics. Thank you

(Basing my question off this)
1672602726797.gif
 
Looks like that grammerman dude got yeeted from the forum. His posts are all gone. Well that was kinda fun while it lasted. lol

Let's just try to be excited about new tech and progress in the hobby that we all love. And even though OP banned me from his FB group, I am still thankful for his updates here! 😘
Yup...and just like that, he's gone. Won't be missed.
 
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Was waiting for the yeet… pretty sure he was dealing with mental health issues, his behavioral pattern was a near dead match for a manic episode. Here’s DSM-5 criteria- https://www.pediatriconcall.com/calculators/dsm-5-manic-episode-criteria

Also @AirShootist - am I right in understanding a spool valve is better than a poppet valve due to the direction of force to push the valve into an open state. The spool moves laterally against the pressure where the poppet valve is pushed against the pressure…? Still early in my understanding of the mechanics. Thank you

(Basing my question off this)
View attachment 319139

I dunno if bad mental health or just trying to be a jerk and maybe drunk... but I was drinking too (a lot) last night and my behavior was at least acceptable (I think?).... Either way, hope he is OK and thanks to you guys for dealing with my...uh.... counter-trolling? Lol. Someone had to do it....

Anyway, on your question about spool valves - are they better than poppet valves? Yes and no. You can have an exquisitely tuned/sprung poppet system that is super efficient and consistent. You can also have a well-tuned spoolie that runs great and is super consistent & efficient. In general, poppets are known to be more efficient, but that is changing as spools get better and better. Like I said my GMek (spoolie, Gamma Core) will shoot more pods of paint than my Autococker (poppet). Lower operating pressure helps with that. My GMek is far more efficient than my cocker.

I'm gonna give you guys a BIG rabbit hole to go down. Check out www.ZDSPB.com (Thanks, Andy!). This is a website with TONS of technical drawings and animations of various paintball marker platforms. Literally days and days and days worth of info there. If you dig through some of that info, I think it will really help your understanding of spool valves vs poppet valves. Look into the tech sections.

Remember, a spool is a dynamic valve (like your graphic). Most spool valve PB guns run so low operating pressure that they don't require an LPR (low pressure reg). The Skout DOES use an LPR because it runs at way higher operating pressure (800 to maybe 1500 psi) but we only need like 100-125 to cycle the spool valve/bolt (or whatever it will be called in the Skout). So the DLX Luxe pb gun (made in same factory as the Skout) only uses 1 reg, an HPR (high pressure reg) because it operates at sub-150psi, so that same pressure can run the solenoid for bolt travel as well as to propel the paintball. It does not need an LPR to run the solenoid. Many electronic poppet valve guns use a LPR to run a solenoid to power a ram or rammer, which hits the valve. That way it doesn't need a hammer spring, it uses air.

Here is a diagram of the DLX Luxe bolt I pulled from ZDSPB. Hopefully this is helpful. Definitely go check that website and dive into a rabbit hole, if that's your thing (it definitely is my thing...)

1672604084025.png
 
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Also, I should have added to the "are spool valves better than poppet valves?" question that I answered above: 1 thing that is FOR SURE about spool valves is they are more technologically advanced than poppet valves and require much more advanced manufacturing, especially for machining ID oring grooves. You can plainly see the technological advancement (vs a poppet valve) in the above graphic.
 
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here is the Luxe firing:
luxe2.gif


You can see the high pressure air (yellow) build up in the dump chamber and then you can see the solenoid cycling air to the front or back of the bolt sail to move the bolt, which dumps the dump chamber pressure down the barrel once it gets to the point of breaking that seal.

Technically there are 2 spool valves in the Luxe, the bolt engine itself and then also the small electronic solenoid (not pictured here) is also considered a spool valve.
 
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December has past, it is a New Year, now Darryl, time to throw us bone/update/something! Ryan and Sam said the pre production Epoch has been pretty amazing. Dave came back from Cup and told me you'll get us in line. I think my Panthera is going to fall in my lap first! 🫢
Same boat with the Panthera. My Skout is paid in full. I would like an update also, but have been refraining from jumping in Darryl's inbox for now. I just need that Skout for sure by April, I intend to shoot the Northeast Airgun Classic 100yd benchrest portion with it. Having it next month would be ideal so I can tune and practice with it.

Out of curiosity - What caliber and length Panthera did you get? Mine will be a .22 / 600mm
 
Same boat with the Panthera. Mine is paid in full. I would like an update also, but have been refraining from jumping in Darryl's inbox for now. I just need that Skout for sure by April, I intend to shoot the Northeast Airgun Classic 100yd benchrest portion with it. Having it next month would be ideal so I can tune and practice with it.

Out of curiosity - What caliber and length Panthera did you get? Mine will be a .22 / 600mm
I ordered a Panthera from UtahAir moments after the pre order opened. I was told I was the 2nd to order a 22cal in 700mm. I expect it sometime next week after hearing the FX USA shipment is on its way.
After 22 years, I'm retiring from the paintball world, just got relegated and lost my Pro NXL spot. 😔
I've been dabbling in PRS and want to try the Panthera at some local NRL comps.
 
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I ordered a Panthera from UtahAir moments after the pre order opened. I was told I was the 2nd to order a 22cal in 700mm. I expect it sometime next week after hearing the FX USA shipment is on its way.
After 22 years, I'm retiring from the paintball world, just got relegated and lost my Pro NXL spot. 😔
I've been dabbling in PRS and want to try the Panthera at some local NRL comps.
We've probably shot at each other before.... I was playing for Shocktech Factory Gunfighters (mech) and that basically evaporated. No more ST GF as a team, really. Everyone had kids and buzzed off while I tried to keep it going. I wanted to get on Aftershock but I'm with you, kinda retiring after 27 years. I always kept my rank d3 or under so I could sandbag with the other "local Chicago notables", as Dresser put it. I'll always still play local open and D4 events n stuff but paintball destroys your body and I want to shift more to firearms and airgun competitions now, at 37. I about had my last straw with toxic teammates at ICPL this year.... Also, the prizes in paintball now are just a slap in the face.... "free entry" to the next tourney.... ooof. There is great allure in the "solo" nature of competition shooting rather than the team aspect in paintball. I only want to depend on myself and I want to avoid toxic teammates....

Message me who you are, if you want. I'm curious.
 
The name is Terry Fong, spent most of time as a Bob Long Touring Tech. As a player, lot of teams, BL Iromen, Oakland Assassins, Oakland Blast, Capital Edge Hitters, Kapp Factory and DMG. For the last 4 years Sacramento DMG coach, I've have attended countless events, won a couple nppl championships and a series. Dresser and I go back when he was with Evil, know all the late 90s early Aftershock guys, spent lot of time with Renick, Danny Love, Poopy, Noblett, Bruno, Kenny Klamper and etcetera. You can imagine, Shock, GZ, Miami Effect, Infamous, RL, and etcetera being sponsored teams shooting Intimidators looking a me to help at events over years, I made alot of friends and connections.
 
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Assuming the barrels are equivalent, what are the advantages as far as accuracy with the spool valve compared to the poppet? Also power? Thanks.
With my experience no difference in accuracy, spools are generally a single tube/cylinder body design, poppet are usually stacked tube/2 cylinder body.
 
Assuming the barrels are equivalent, what are the advantages as far as accuracy with the spool valve compared to the poppet? Also power? Thanks.
Both systems blast air down a barrel. If you have the same volume of air at the same pressure with the same plenum size there should really be no discernable accuracy difference that I can think of. The accuracy would mostly come from your projectile and barrel match. We will operate a spool at a lower pressure than a poppet, so maybe there is less turbulence at the end of the barrel with that lower pressure blast? If there is a wiser mind than mine on that, I'm all ears, but I think accuracy of both systems should be pretty well on par with each other, given the same barrel twist rate, bore diameter, and same projectile.

The power part of your question. The larger plenum an airgun has and the bigger the valve port, the lower the pressure can be run to get the same energy. Since a spool valve has a gigantic port compared to a poppet, that is why you can run lower pressure. A larger volume of air is gonna get through a spool valve than the much smaller port on a poppet seal. I am not sure of the plenum + dump chamber volume on the SKout but if you watch their videos they are stating some pretty low pressures, I think I recall 900psi (62 bar) for a .22, which is super low. Most .22 airguns use around double that pressure, so I imagine it's pretty huge on the Skout. So the Skout does more power at the same pressure level than a comparable poppet gun, if that makes sense.

The name is Terry Fong, spent most of time as a Bob Long Touring Tech. As a player, lot of teams, BL Iromen, Oakland Assassins, Oakland Blast, Capital Edge Hitters, Kapp Factory and DMG. For the last 4 years Sacramento DMG coach, I've have attended countless events, won a couple nppl championships and a series. Dresser and I go back when he was with Evil, know all the late 90s early Aftershock guys, spent lot of time with Renick, Danny Love, Poopy, Noblett, Bruno, Kenny Klamper and etcetera. You can imagine, Shock, GZ, Miami Effect, Infamous, RL, and etcetera being sponsored teams shooting Intimidators looking a me to help at events over years, I made alot of friends and connections.
Hey Terry, thanks for that. I knew it was DMG for sure. Sorry about the relegation. One of your teammates I've played tournaments with before (Hill), and all the Shock people you mentioned I know and have played tournies with. Pretty small world. Although it is sad to turn the page on paintball, I think its cool to shift focus to airguns and I definitely have some common ground with ya there. Good luck in the NRL stuff, man. You're gonna do great.
 
Both systems blast air down a barrel. If you have the same volume of air at the same pressure with the same plenum size there should really be no discernable accuracy difference that I can think of. The accuracy would mostly come from your projectile and barrel match. We will operate a spool at a lower pressure than a poppet, so maybe there is less turbulence at the end of the barrel with that lower pressure blast? If there is a wiser mind than mine on that, I'm all ears, but I think accuracy of both systems should be pretty well on par with each other, given the same barrel twist rate, bore diameter, and same projectile.

The power part of your question. The larger plenum an airgun has and the bigger the valve port, the lower the pressure can be run to get the same energy. Since a spool valve has a gigantic port compared to a poppet, that is why you can run lower pressure. A larger volume of air is gonna get through a spool valve than the much smaller port on a poppet seal. I am not sure of the plenum + dump chamber volume on the SKout but if you watch their videos they are stating some pretty low pressures, I think I recall 900psi (62 bar) for a .22, which is super low. Most .22 airguns use around double that pressure, so I imagine it's pretty huge on the Skout. So the Skout does more power at the same pressure level than a comparable poppet gun, if that makes sense.
Thanks, and the reason I ask, is over the past year with slugs, the top shooters have discovered that a short very high pressure burst of air gives better accuracy than a longer, lower pressure delivery of air.
As far as volumetric flow, even with much larger valving, the barrel diameter is the limiting factor in total air flow, regardless of what mechanics are upstream.
 
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