Sorting by weight (.22/25.4gr Monster RDs)

[Franklink]

Aggregation of Marginal Gains?...perhaps

Largest pellet weighing experiment I've undertaken. 5 tins of JSB branded .22 25.4gr MRDs. 200ct/tin so 1000pellets. Would be easy to get to percentages if a guy was interested. Didn't stop @ 5 tins bc of that though. Stopped there cuz I was already past the point of going nuts with weighing pellets.

My scale is not the highest precision instrument but weighed most of them out of the first tin multiple times to make sure it was repeatable. It seems to be. Went faster after that. Was also able to pull a previously weighed pellet and get the same weight hours later. 

This is after two tins, bell curve of distribution more evident here before the grouped-by-weight tins got more full. Starts at 24.2 on the left and goes to 25.6 on the right . 

 

This is after all 1000 pellets. 

In that 1000, and on the highs and lows, had one pellet that weighed 24.2, [email protected], [email protected], 1@25, [email protected] and 26@ 25.6 and 2 @ 25.7 and then lots of 25.4, 25.5, 25.3, 25.2 in that order of frequency. 

So, not even half of them actually weighed 25.4, as labeled.

As for the peewee 24.2grainer, here's some pics of that little . 

At first glance just a mangled skirt but closer inspection shows that it's missing lead in the skirt area (ie, weighs substantially less than it should)

This is one of the 25.1grainers, appears to be missing lead where those divots shouldn't be. 

And one of the 2, 24.7grainers seems to be missing some lead on one side of the deepest portion of the skirt. But otherwise, no visible deformities. 

So, if a guy was willing to shoot 25.2 through 25.5 grain pellets, only bout 34/1000 wouldn't fall in that window. 

Cut that back to 25.4 and 25.5, calling those "good ones" and maybe 75%? of them weighed that (dunno though cuz lots of 25.2s and 25.3s.). 

I'm sure there are deformities in the pellets that werent on the outskirts of the bell curve but I'm sick of sorting. Ie, they weigh the right amount but are still deformed to the point of affecting accuracy through simple inconsistent shape from other "right amount" weighing pellets. (I'm not going digging for them)

There have been a couple discussions about the utility/futility of sorting pellets lately.......I have a hard time believing those really light, really heavy, and deformed pellets are going to go where they should @100 yards though. 

But man, sorting pellets is miserable. 

Where am I at now, after all that fun? Dang sure won't be weighing stuff for sub20fpe/55 yard field target as Ive just not experienced the flyers in that discipline. But I have gained a greater appreciation of the utility of sorting pellets that I'm going to send WAY out there, (for Xtreme FT this winter for example). Mostly because I HAVE seen flyers in this context and am hoping that at least segregation by weight has the chance of reducing them. 

Fun stuff that pellet weighing. (And they say water boarding and bamboo shoots under fingernails is torture.) 

Aggregation of marginal gains? Perhaps. 

 

[Nofilters]

Very good and thorough write up as usual. 
I can tell you I agree waterboarding seems less punishing than pellet sorting. 

 

[Centercut]

Good write up. I experienced the same thing at the start of the Summer getting ready for the big tournaments. I use the FX branded ones that come in 350 count tins. And since the majority are 25.4 and 25.5 grain those are the ones I shoot in competition. The others are used for testing and practice.

After weighing then I size them and cull the ones under 5.53 mm head size. That usually gets rid of another 35 to 40, so from a “good” tin I’ll cull 75 to 80. And from a “bad” tin I’ll cull 125 to 150. 

Since I started this routine I haven’t had a flyer in competition. I totally agree, those very light pellets definitely wouldn’t have shot properly at 100 yards. Maybe you can shoot them to confirm?

 

[Nofilters]

Well we have heard people say no such thing as bad pellets it is mediocre or bad barrel prep I wonder if the “REALLY GOOD (Professionally prepped) BARRELS” just somehow know to shoot those oddities differently. Things make you go huuummmm!!

 

[rsfrid]

I weigh to hundredths of a grain, so call me OCD . I shot for groups so keep each mag full from the same bin. Don't care if the pellet is 25.2 or 25.8 grains, as long as every one of the pellets in the mag are from the same bin. I usually see SD of under 4 with equally narrow ES. Yep weighing is for those days I can't do anything else, but beats watching paint dry.

 

[bandg]

Good write up. I experienced the same thing at the start of the Summer getting ready for the big tournaments. I use the FX branded ones that come in 350 count tins. And since the majority are 25.4 and 25.5 grain those are the ones I shoot in competition. The others are used for testing and practice.

After weighing then I size them and cull the ones under 5.53 mm head size. That usually gets rid of another 35 to 40, so from a “good” tin I’ll cull 75 to 80. And from a “bad” tin I’ll cull 125 to 150. 

Since I started this routine I haven’t had a flyer in competition. I totally agree, those very light pellets definitely wouldn’t have shot properly at 100 yards. Maybe you can shoot them to confirm?

+1

It doesn't seem to be the case that sorting would improve the "middle" of the bunch. But it certainly seems that it well could eliminate that "odd miss".

 

[Saltlake58]

I found by weighing and sorting, flyers reduced and the standard deviation at the chronograph dropped significantly. Removing any variation helps with accuracy. Now, starting to experiment with rolling. Not sure it'll help me that much, only experimentation will tell. Hopefully shooting first batches of rolled pellets this weekend, maybe, if the normal rigors of life don't bite me in the butt.

 

[Franklink]

Since I started this routine I haven’t had a flyer in competition. I totally agree, those very light pellets definitely wouldn’t have shot properly at 100 yards. Maybe you can shoot them to confirm?

Very doable. When I was putting everything back into tins, I labeled all the sub 25.2grain and supra 25.5grain stuff into one tin of worst of the worst. I can shoot that entire tin of rejects (only bout 35 pellets I think) at 100 yards, just holding on center, and see how it shakes out. And then shoot 35 of the "good" ones at the same distance for comparison. Wind likely be bit different for each but should be a telling comparison. 

 

[2D1C]

When I shot the JSB .25 25.39 gn I did weigh,clean and sort, and I had to use 6 tins of separation as well, but I didn't head size them. As CC said you will cull the flyers doing this . I only shoot the 34 grains gn now, They are more robust, I rarely find a bad skirt or head or have a flyer, but I haven't started sorting yet either LOL

 

[Nofilters]

I use both the .25 Hades and MkII's, I have found my barrel likes the 6.34 head size that the batch of Hades is. They actually outshot (for accuracy) the MKII's until I sized with T-robb the MKII's to 6.34 they were 6.36 or bigger from the tin.Pelletgage.com and T-robb really help oh and speedy sorter also. Although the hades seem to be a little more predictable in the wind.

 

[survivor45]

I weigh to hundredths of a grain, so call me OCD

. I shot for groups so keep each mag full from the same bin. Don't care if the pellet is 25.2 or 25.8 grains, as long as every one of the pellets in the mag are from the same bin. I usually see SD of under 4 with equally narrow ES. Yep weighing is for those days I can't do anything else, but beats watching paint dry.

^^^ This is what I do also ^^^
Now I’m only a backyard shooter/pester. 30 yards or less. Sorting for me is another way to eliminate a questionable issue. I know the pellets are good (enough for me) so if I get a flyer it could be some other issue. Like me .

 

[Franklink]

Finally had a chance to do a comparison.

Gun used was a Taipan Vet Long that's been rebarelled with an unchoked LW 12 land & groove barrel. Throws the MRDs at about 860 currently. 

More gun details if interested: https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/veteran-long-22-rebarrel/

90 yards. 

Minimal wind, about 0.3-0.6 mils left and right, mostly quartering in from 10 o'clock but occasionally quartering away from 5 o clock. 

Shot 12, 5 shot groups with sorted and 12, 5 shot groups with unsorted pellets. Basically two condensed EBR "cards" using the sixth "sighter" bull also. 

Shot one 5 shot group with sorted and then one five shot group with unsorted and alternated back and forth through all 24, 5 shot groups.

Sorted and unsorted pellets from the same lot# (sticker on the sleeve). 

Used the pellets that weighed out as 25.4grains as the "sorted" arm of the comparison. 

Both sorted and unsorted arms were lubed. 

Arrows showing the flyers. 

Scored:

Sorted comments:

Highest two aggregate scores were with sorted pellets. In 60 shots, there were only two sixs from sorted pellets and it was because the wind switched on me. I can live with changing winds, I can't live with pellets flying in a schizophrenic manner. NONE of the sorted pellets flew erratically or impacted somewhere that was screwy. Average 5 shot group score - 44.92, basically 45. 

Unsorted comments: 

Lowest two aggregate scores were with unsorted pellets. There were some really good five shot groups but they were the exception, not the norm. My assumption is that random draw from the tin equated to five "good" ones in a row on the good groups from the unsorted pellets. By rough count I'm seeing 7 sixs. One didn't even hit the paper, another impacted 6 inches from where it should have, and the others were two or more inches from where they should have been. Average 5 shot group score - 43.1. 

So, it appears that, in this small sample size from this gun, from this lot of pellets, with me shooting, sorting nets roughly two points per five shot group, and 10 points per "card". 

Man I hate sorting, but I'll be shooting weighed pellets from this gun at the Xtreme FT events this winter. 

Sidenote...

I shot the 13 worst pellets at 90 yards, just to see how much they'd open up, and here it is. 

Handwritten typo on the photo, should say less than or equal to 25.2 grains, greater than or equal to 25.7grains, and the culls (visible defects). 

There are five black marker dots, in the pattern of the five side of a pair of dice. Aim point was the middle black dot. 

2.5 inch group, ctc, which makes even the culls plenty accurate for pesting. I expected worse. 

 

[Centercut]

Very interesting post. Looks like sorting the RDMs is a no brainer. I wonder if you had also sorted by head size to eliminate the small ones under 5.52 the results would have been even more conclusive? 
This confirms what I have been seeing for the past year and a half in my Red Wolf HP. I’ve sorted tins where only 10% had to be culled, and others where 30% needed to be culled. In addition to weight using 25.4, 25.5 and 25.6 grain only, I eliminate the head sizes under 5.52. Since I started sorting for competition I haven’t had a flyer… I haven’t compared lubing to non lubing pellets yet, but it appears many shooters do lube. I currently don’t, but the FX branded RDMs I shoot seem to be lightly lubed from the factory. 

 

[steve123]

Cole, your culls shot pretty good on that last photo???

Just talking to myself here, I can't make sense of the whole pellets thing at farther distances, LOL???

Not long after I got my Thomas HPX which was the middle of winter, while doing a test, I shot 12 or so of the culls of the 22 cal redesigns into just over an inch at 100Y. My rifle was shooting super good back then and did for months afterwards, which is when I shot a 244 in almost calm conditions. Seemed back then I would rarely get flyers and hadn't got huge flyers yet??!! Thinking back when I shot those culls my velocity was at 920 fps IIRC, but later it began to slow down to 895 fps as the rifle broke in, so I modified the jet to get the gun up to 920 fps again, but shortly after that it went to 965 -970 fps instead for whatever reason. Even with sorted pellets(separated by weight and head size) I've had some huge flyers since then??? So I'm still trying to figure out why, which will be a work in progress I guess.

When I was at Mike N's place a week ago I watched as he shot my gun with the 25gr RD's while turning/tuning my HS adjustment and while off his awesome table and one piece rest. Within minutes he got my gun shooting twice as good with almost no vertical at 50Y. He exclaimed that the gun shot softer when the HS was tuned back to the optimal position and BTW the velocity didn't drop but 5 fps or so. We also tried lubed vs just pellets out of the tin and lubed shot better. Recently I thought my problem from flyers was the regulator by reasoning that that was causing the big flyers which would hit really low but in many shots over the chrono that weekend the velocity spreads were reasonable.

In the past I still got big flyers with 30 and 25 cal with sorted pellets but these 22RD's do seem more susceptible.

So in my case was it "the tune", a dirty barrel, a funky pellet here and there, or odd winds, or probably any combination of them???

 

[Centercut]

But, let’s not pretend than Cole didn’t get massive flyers prior to culling. And that was only with sorting visually and by weight. After culling visually and by weight his flyers basically went away. How is that explained? Plus in my experience I would get a massive flyer every now and then in my Red Wolf HP. I’m not talking an unexpected 6 or 7, but something outside the target or a 4 at best. And for me, from the same lot that I would get a sometimes flyer, once sorted it stopped. Totally. At RMAC and EBR, zero flyers from bad pellets. IMHO and based on my experience, I’d be a fool not to sort…

Steve, how are your pellets lubed and with what? Also, whose pellets did he use to “re-tune” your gun, his or ones you brought with you? And what does a “reasonable” velocity spread mean to you? Most of us just list a number for ES…

 

[Franklink]

Steve, I was really surprised to see the culls shoot that 2.5inch group. I expected worse, much worse. Made me feel better to see them at least shoot good enough for pesting and not be completely useless, cuz 2.5 inch groups @90 make the culls no bueno for xft or shooting for scores 

As you stated in your last sentence, lots of factors at play. I suspect at least some of the "sorted shooting better" phenomena is placebo effect. In our minds they're "better" so we're a little more careful in squeezing off each shot. BUT the flyers I saw last night were quite visible in the scope, veering away from aim point. 

As for dirty barrel, cleaning regimen/routine, and lube (and with Bobbie's help a month or two ago) i think me and this particular barrel have come to an agreement...

 

[steve123]

But, let’s not pretend than Cole didn’t get massive flyers prior to culling. And that was only with sorting visually and by weight. After culling visually and by weight his flyers basically went away. How is that explained? Plus in my experience I would get a massive flyer every now and then in my Red Wolf HP. I’m not talking an unexpected 6 or 7, but something outside the target or a 4 at best. And for me, from the same lot that I would get a sometimes flyer, once sorted it stopped. Totally. At RMAC and EBR, zero flyers from bad pellets. IMHO and based on my experience, I’d be a fool not to sort…

Steve, how are your pellets lubed and with what? Also, whose pellets did he use to “re-tune” your gun, his or ones you brought with you? And what does a “reasonable” velocity spread mean to you? Most of us just list a number for ES…

True and I'm not against sorting Mike. I'm pretty sure there are pellets that for whatever reason whack out but at the same time my sorted pellets have done the same, sooooo I don't have the answer to the problem. Though honestly I haven't been inspecting pellets very much but if I see one that is obviously screwy I'll throw on the ground or in the old lead pile. The test I was referring to earlier had the worst ones in the tin.

He recommends WD40 for lube which is what I've been using in it. I just shoot a small amount in a plastic container, put 100 or so pellets in it, and turn the container over itself for a minute.

The tin I used at Mikes place was a old partial tin of JSB that I got from him last year, at first it was shooting good prior to him tuning, then fantastic after tuning. Normally I use the Daystate's rebrand of the same pellet but I can't tell a difference between the JSB vs Daystate, also these Daystate's are the same large lot of pellets that I used to shoot my highest scores in N50 and EBR practice cards at 100Y.

Oh, the ES was less than 10 but we were looking for BIG variations in velocity to see if the reg wasn't working right. The ES didn't change much, only the velocity dropped slightly because the HS was lightened. It's the jet screw that changes the velocity to a large degree which we didn't mess with that day.

So can sorting help reduce flyers??, my stance is yes. Is it full proof, nope.

Didn't you get a flyer in the 75Y qualifier at EBR which made you want to go back to 30 cal next year? Or was it that you don't want to chance it anymore?

 

[steve123]

Steve, I was really surprised to see the culls shoot that 2.5inch group. I expected worse, much worse. Made me feel better to see them at least shoot good enough for pesting and not be completely useless, cuz 2.5 inch groups @90 make the culls no bueno for xft or shooting for scores 

As you stated in your last sentence, lots of factors at play. I suspect at least some of the "sorted shooting better" phenomena is placebo effect. In our minds they're "better" so we're a little more careful in squeezing off each shot. BUT the flyers I saw last night were quite visible in the scope, veering away from aim point. 

As for dirty barrel, cleaning regimen/routine, and lube (and with Bobbie's help a month or two ago) i think me and this particular barrel have come to an agreement...

Yep those were huge flyers! I have empathy - been there!

I'll tell yuh, if I had flyers like that with my firearms I'd be pissed but with pellets it's gonna happen so if sorting helps then go-for-it!

 

[Centercut]

So can sorting help reduce flyers??, my stance is yes. Is it full proof, nope.

Didn't you get a flyer in the 75Y qualifier at EBR which made you want to go back to 30 cal next year? Or was it that you don't want to chance it anymore?

Thanks Steve. I’ll have to try the WD40. As far as proof I think what you meant is no proof for you. I think if you asked me or Cole we’d say we have enough proof that we’d be kinda dumb not to. And it turns out that one flyer was the CARM magazine that I used for that one shot. I had 4 to go and a full mag, both Daystate mags were empty. Put in the CARM and wham, flyer and a 3, no finals for me. The older CARMs I gave you never did that. I took it out and filled a Daystate mag and took the last 3 shots no issues. 

 

[Franklink]

I agree Steve, full proof? No, but definitely compelling (damning?) enough anecdotal evidence for me to sort for the XFT matches or when trying to shoot a card that will be scored. 

Gotta add the comment that I'm really not happy about this. I'm already groaning inside as I dread when my small supply of sorted MRDs is gone or gets even smaller and I have to play that stupid pellet weighing game again. 

The really frustrating thing? JSB 10.34s from my USFT for regular field target don't need sorted, by weight, head size visual defects, or anything else. It is extremely rare for me to even blow one off in the dirt during a match like lots of guys do. And that gun/pellet combo has shot more than one perfect score. And that's 48 shots or 52 shots or 40 shots where all the pellets were drawn straight out of the tin and fired. I don't even glance at them for obvious defects and it's yet to bite me in the a$$. We're talking entire tins without flyers. Hell, I think I've got somewhere around 45 empty tins of 10.34s in those stacks and can only remember one flyer. 

So why the heck can't the MRDs be as pleasantly dependable as the .177, 10.34s without this hours at the scale song and dance coupled with the visually (agonizing) examination of EVERY. SINGLE. STINKING. pellet for a possible flyer?