Sorting Pellets for precision

[thomasair]

I get way too many people asking me how I sort my pellets. I tell everyone the same thing. I don’t sort pellets. I open a tin, shoot some....if they shoot well I buy all I can. If they don’t....I don’t bother with them.

Im shocked at the number of people that don’t realize that a pellet goes down the barrel with 2 bearing surfaces. The head of the pellet is the least of your worries. If you properly make the leade of a barrel...the head will center itself up in the rifling over a wide range of sizes. The skirt, however, is a malleable component that gets “fire formed” to the barrel. If it forms a little crooked, the head of the pellet has no choice in the matter but to be steered by the tail. Simply put...the head direction is 100% controlled by the tail.

There are lots of reasons a pellet skirt will not form concentric to the head (assuming it was concentric to begin with) but it only takes one to make a pellet go crooked.

Please think about this the next time you are spending hours dropping pellet heads through a hole to determine what your barrel “likes”. I doubt your barrel gives a crap....because the other end of the pellet is the business end.

Mike 

 

[ChrisUSA]

Maybe it matters, maybe it don't. It does eliminate a variable. That is always desirable. Second, one has to shoot well enough to tell the difference. I consider myself near that point, but do not always get consistent results.



As for fit,.... consider press fit. A .258 pellet head will have a lot more press fit than a .251 pellet head (for example). That is multiplied by the extra surface area of slugs. Just my 2 cents.

 

[thomasair]

I understand the logic used by people to justify head sorting...it just doesn’t pan out for me in long term testing. It also doesn’t pan out for the majority of my customers that do the match winning and record setting.

You don’t have to be a great shooter to see anything...you just need a good indoor place to shoot and a good gun and shooting setup. From there...you just put the dot in the middle and touch the trigger. 

Very poorly controlled experiments and flawed short term testing accounts for the anecdotal evidence that most use to prove its worth. 

Mike 

 

[Michael]

Granted I've never sized .177 caliber pellets, my results are from sorting .22 & .25 pellets, but I respectfully disagree. I've sorted tins that contain 1/2 a dozen different head sizes. I then tested the different head sizes and found the smallest head sizes to form the largest groups. I also found the largest head sizes resulted in a slower average FPS. 

As far as skirt deformities, I simply discard any pellets with skirt deformities. 

I believe the weight of a pellet is of equal or greater value. Again with the same sample groups (.22, .25) I found that their weight varied even more than head size. Which resulted in an extreme difference of 2''-3'' at 100 yards.

And most importantly I discard any pellet with dimples or deformities on the head.

I don't compete in any of the large sponsored events anymore (got myself in trouble by winning 3 gold medals with a certain brand). So I don't have a need to size, inspect, or weigh anymore, but if I did... I pay the neighbors kid to do it!

 

[ChrisUSA]

I understand the logic used by people to justify head sorting...it just doesn’t pan out for me in long term testing. It also doesn’t pan out for the majority of my customers that do the match winning and record setting.

You don’t have to be a great shooter to see anything...you just need a good indoor place to shoot and a good gun and shooting setup. From there...you just put the dot in the middle and touch the trigger. 

Very poorly controlled experiments and flawed short term testing accounts for the anecdotal evidence that most use to prove its worth. 

Mike 

100% in agreement on well conducted testing. Outdoor's testing is a flaw right out the gate. As for the pro's,.... if they don't fool with any of that stuff,.... then you have to give that some serious consideration too. All of my testing is outdoors, starting at 30 yards. From there I will back it up to 50 yards. I will go past 50 yards if results justify it.



Being able to (repeat) results on a somewhat consistent basis is also important to me,... on different days.

 

[Centercut]

I'm on the fence on this one with PELLETS (I don't currently sort - if Mike N. can shoot 0.7 inch 25 shot groups at 100 yards, or shoot scores of 250-20x at 50Y BR without sorting, that says something). But I don't want any newbys getting confused over this with SLUGS. There is no doubt at all that head size of slugs drastically affects performance. Even 0.001 inch can make a huge difference. 

Case in point recently, the JSB KO slugs. I tried the .216 in my Daystate Red Wolf (BLEU) and they shot about a 2 to 3 inch group at only 50 yards. Then I tried the .217 cal. and they shot the same accuracy as the RD Monster pellets, which is to say basically one ragged hole...

So I say sort if it makes you feel better, and of course take a look at the pellets as you load them for obvious deformities.

 

[thomasair]

Michael...you make a fair point. Maybe you can improve a mediocre tin of pellets?

Maybe one could gather all the floor sweepings from JSB and set about finding the ones that will most likely shoot well?

I don’t bother with mediocre pellets for competition, and have zero evidence that I have improved a good shooting tin with any amount of sorting.

I have spent a ridiculous amount of time sorting good pellets with the most advanced methods available only to find that in long term testing the culls averaged the same scores as the sorted good ones.

This only proves that what we are sorting for is not really what we should be sorting for.


Mike

 

[thomasair]

I agree that slugs are a whole different animal. They have one bearing surface.


Much of the Airgun wisdom is handed down from the bullet shooting world. The problem is that it’s not apples to apples.


Mike

 

[Michael]

Michael...you make a fair point. Maybe you can improve a mediocre tin of pellets?

I don’t bother with mediocre pellets for competition


Mike

Do tell, what are these magic pellets?

 

[thomasair]

Magic pellets are simply tins of regular pellets that shoot well.

Mike 

 

[mmahoney]

Very poorly controlled experiments and flawed short term testing accounts for the anecdotal evidence that most use to prove its worth.

This point should be brought up much more often. I suspect there is a lot of misinformation that gets repeated over and over again that gets assumed as fact. Basic information such as testing procedures, sample sizes, and efforts to control varables are almost always missing from precision and accuracy claims. It is boring, no doubt, but is the only way to sift valuable information from the chaff.

I'm as guilty as anybody. I think I'll try to dig up some of my old data and make a new post as an example of how I wish accuracy and precision data is shared.

 

[Yo]

Granted I've never sized .177 caliber pellets, my results are from sorting .22 & .25 pellets, but I respectfully disagree. I've sorted tins that contain 1/2 a dozen different head sizes. I then tested the different head sizes and found the smallest head sizes to form the largest groups. I also found the largest head sizes resulted in a slower average FPS. 

As far as skirt deformities, I simply discard any pellets with skirt deformities. 

I believe the weight of a pellet is of equal or greater value. Again with the same sample groups (.22, .25) I found that their weight varied even more than head size. Which resulted in an extreme difference of 2''-3'' at 100 yards.

And most importantly I discard any pellet with dimples or deformities on the head.

I don't compete in any of the large sponsored events anymore (got myself in trouble by winning 3 gold medals with a certain brand). So I don't have a need to size, inspect, or weigh anymore, but if I did... I pay the neighbors kid to do it!

Wondering why you even sold such a ridiculously accurate SUB SUB SUB MOA 100 YARD SHOOTER which no mere mortal would ever believe is even possible.

 

[Yo]

All depends on the barrel most importantly.

There are phenomenal barrels that shoot even reject lots extremely well straight out of the tins.

Owning many duplicates of the same guns in the same calibers prove this. Most maybe around 95% won't take well to crappy QC pellets while that lucky 5% gets to enjoy sub half inch or better at 100 yards and bug hole groups at 50 shooting good lots while the rejects shoot average groups like 95% other barrels shoot the good ones from.

You also know it when you get a barrel that shoots just about everything you feed it accurately.

Why do you think There's a thing called HAND PICKED BARRELS? THATS TRUE!

Like dealers shooting 5-10 guns or more to sell you the best out of them. Most shooters won't know or even care unless they got their first crazy unnaturally accurate one to know they really exist.

 

[Yo]

True story here...

You know the sub $300 Umarex Gauntlets right? The 177 has the possibility of 1/4" or better at 50 yards depends on how many you go through to find that diamond in the rough. Or buy one from someone who already been through dozens of them who kept this last one for himself then pandemic hit and forced to sell it due to finances who guaranteed the accuracy with the sale and pellets shot from the lot included. I didn't need a refund for this one. Doesn't even have a HAJIMOTO Barrel band. Wondering if I should...

Another is I had tested 6 Daystate Airwolfs in 22 and one was ridiculously accurate bugholes at 50 straight out of the tins even the crappy batches shot well and no fliers. Anither shot the Wal-Mart Crosman Premier Hollowpoints and Pointeds shockingly well too.

Same with nearly a dozen Crickets. One was exceptional at 100 yards.

One out of 7 Edgun R3M 22s too sub 1/2" at 100 and few MOA and the rest 1.25-1.5"

One out of two 22 Daystate Regale 1/4" at 50 but it that one was purchased used with that claim. The other does 1/2".

Too bad all 12 of my gen1 22 Marauders sucked. Bought couple first 100 from others that were fantastic! Many had to be fitted with MMHF barrels and sold for CHEAP they were THAT BAD! Even with the oversized H&N 5.54 and 5.55 FTTs and Baracudas.

Now you know the reason for owning multiples of the same gun in the same caliber. There will always be one (or maybe 95) thats more accurate than what you got.

Didn't you guys have this gun you sold accurate as hell then you miss it then your new one isn't quite as accurate you start thinking something's wrong with the new gun or pellets no good?

 

[nomojo65]

I am going to agree with almost all that Mike said (and NOT because he is a manufacturer’s of some of the most accurate guns made!) I and most 25m shooters have gone through many different sorting/weighing/measurement techniques etc. either your barrels like the pellet or not, why? Not sure but the only thing that I can find that gives me a idea if they will shoot out of my barrels is seating depth? Which varies by lot of pellets, and let me add this doesn’t Always prove accurately? I’ve made my own seating tool to seat pellets deeper if this is what the barrel prefers... this coincides with the shape and contour of the internal skirt, is this Because of different die’s? I have wasted a lot of time and air thinking I could make all pellets shoot out of my barrels, if they don’t shoot out of the tin, you will get very frustrated wondering why your gun shot great a month ago! IMO

 

[Baker Airguns]

Granted I've never sized .177 caliber pellets, my results are from sorting .22 & .25 pellets, but I respectfully disagree. I've sorted tins that contain 1/2 a dozen different head sizes. I then tested the different head sizes and found the smallest head sizes to form the largest groups. I also found the largest head sizes resulted in a slower average FPS. 

As far as skirt deformities, I simply discard any pellets with skirt deformities. 

I believe the weight of a pellet is of equal or greater value. Again with the same sample groups (.22, .25) I found that their weight varied even more than head size. Which resulted in an extreme difference of 2''-3'' at 100 yards.

And most importantly I discard any pellet with dimples or deformities on the head.

I don't compete in any of the large sponsored events anymore (got myself in trouble by winning 3 gold medals with a certain brand). So I don't have a need to size, inspect, or weigh anymore, but if I did... I pay the neighbors kid to do it!

I'm going to coincidentally echo most of what Michael said and respectfully disagree with the OP. I have been sorting pellets for a very long time, and my process is nearly identical. I sort for headsize, weight, and physical appearance. I do so because I believe in the efficacy of doing so through experimentation. Though I am not allowed to share my "lab" reports publicly...I test pre-production examples of projectiles for a large projectile manufacturer. I will find a way to publicly share my findings soon, but there is unquestionably a correlation between proper headsize for a given barrel and accuracy.

I used to use experimentation and a Pelletgage to determine what headsize shot best out of a certain gun, but I found a way around it. I now slug my barrels. I have an extensive collection of pellets with known headsizes. I'll take my barrel and start with the smallest headsize I have. After slugging, I check the head of the pellet for complete, uniform, and symmetrical rifling engagement. Usually the smallest headsizes are too small. I work my way up in headsize and examine all of the pellets. When I find the one that displays complete, uniform, and symmetrical rifling engagement...that's my best bet. Any headsize larger than that would just induce unnecessary friction. I still shoot some examples a little over and a little under the size that my slugging tells me is correct just to be sure, but it's usually the one that slugging says is correct that shoots the best.

I might also say that 25m is usually not far enough for me to notice a difference even in .177. Maybe a little, or in extreme cases...but 50yards + is usually required to notice a significant difference.

-Donnie

 

[thomasair]

Hi Donnie....the term slugging means to push an oversized lead “slug” through a barrel to determine the groove diameter of the barrel.

This is process that is used to find optimal sizing of lead bullets in firearms. .0005” to .001” oversized is where you want your bullet. This has nothing to do with accuracy in the short term...it has to do with keeping the hot gases from getting alongside the bullet and melting more of the lead than necessary each shot which will cause quicker fouling. Nonetheless, that same rule of thumb circulates about airgun slugs. I read it just yesterday, actually.

Rather than pushing a pellet down a barrel with a rod and inspecting it...wouldn’t it be much faster and more effective to just shoot a few pellets through and see if they go where you want than to speculate on how they might do based on an idea? 

The part that everyone glosses over is the skirt. It’s the variable component that steers the pellet down the bore. It we think about this critically, surely the skirt has just as much influence or more than the head. It represents more than double the contact of the head for a typical pellet. Skirt angles, thicknesses, cavity depths, cavity concentricity, skirt to head concentricity, and diameter are huge variables. How come everyone is so worried about the head when typical groove depths are .005-.006”? This means the pellet head could vary that much and still be in full contact with the rifling before dragging the inside of the barrel. Are we to believe that head diameter varies...but skirts are always constant?

If you are sorting pellets so you can avoid one that has a head so small that it won’t contact the rifling...you should probably get a barrel with a more appropriate bore size for pellets.


Mike 

 

[jdanvers]

.
( you guys are WAY more knowledgeable on this than I am - just want to follow this one . . . )

 

[oledawg]

I preen my pellets for weight, head size, skirt size and of course any damage. 

 

[Kim]

I vote with Mike on this. At our 25M competitions some sort by weighing and with air-gauges for diameter, and others just try to find good lots for their barrels.* Though these matches are outdoors, if there were significant benefits to sorting then sorters should be consistent winners. But in practice sorting vs not sorting doesn't explain the scores.

As to the tail I have noticed older 177 JSB monsters have a different tail-cup design than newer pellets. Testing many lots of the newer design pellets in my barrel has been disappointing - none of them shoot as well as two lots I had (  ) from a few years ago. One possibility is the new design makes the pellet more head-heavy, leading to instability and flyers every several shots. Could also be the new tail design is more prone to non-concentric manufacturing error.

*I routinely sort out defective-looking pellets, with dimpled heads or deformed tails. I have tried sorting head size but the rejects shoot the same as the keepers.

Kim