SPA P35 clipping baffles and moderator

[nervoustrig]

They've asked to ship them the gun as they want to check it out.

Or they could look at your detailed closeup photos and plainly see the rifling damage. And there's every reason to think they have a warehouse full of SPA airguns with the same sort of barrel damage that would be comparatively easy and less costly to check than processing an RMA from another continent.

Granted it's good they are willing to take some sort of action. The unfortunate thing is all it would take is one big distributor/reseller like Krale or Diana to say to SPA, "We will not accept product into our warehouse with damaged barrels" and the problem would be fixed immediately. We deal with this kind of stuff at my place of business on a routine basis and that's the quickest way to remedy a systemic problem. RMA'ing one at a time is the least good way to do it.

Sorry for the rant. I do sincerely hope they do right by you.

 

[Roachcreek]

Good, I am so glad to read that, hopefully they will send a barrel to you.

This is not the first time this has happened. Crosman presently has workable m-rod barrels, but their first 22 m-rod barrels were terrible, they spawned a cottage industry to replace those bad barrels, if you wanted a replacement barrel from Crosman they sent you another crap barrel, and Crosman knew they were crap and did it for years. This was a few owners ago and I hear the newer ones are better.

A note on the accuracy of this platform. When I was waiting to get my rifle to be rebarreled, a member here had just gotten his p-15 rebarreled, it was rebarreled with a Crosman m-rod barrel, he was posting 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards, so some of them did shoot well.

They are very light rifles, even my Skyhawk with a witness laser, forward mounting lever kit, scope and bipod, fully loaded is 7.5 lbs. The p-15 is considerably lighter. My Avenger 22 rifle with cheap Crosman pellets and is much easier to shoot does perfect 10 shot groups at 10 yards, the Skyhawk does one hole 5 shot groups, but they are obvious 5 shot groups compared to 10 shot groups that look like 1 shot with the longer and heavier Avinger tuned to the same power level. Again remember I am legally blind.

I did a trigger job on Skyhawk 2 days ago, I prefer single stage triggers, my trigger is now a single stage, 14 ounces with no noticeable creep, a working safety and has passed a bounce test.

A trigger job was actually a trigger linkage replacement. I ruined my trigger linkage and made a replacement out of 4-40 RC threaded rod and turn buckle which was on it for3 years. It worked, I had it adjusted to 2 stage 2 lb trigger, but the safety did not work. I don’t use safeties normally, but remember I had to point the damn thing at my one renaming eye.

So a Safety is a great addition, I did the linkage switch with a Snowpeak factory part and a Diana Skyhawk tuning spring, that I bought from Kirkwood and Bagnall in England.

Anyway these guns really can shoot well.

RC

 

[Vetmx]

Or they could look at your detailed closeup photos and plainly see the rifling damage. And there's every reason to think they have a warehouse full of SPA airguns with the same sort of barrel damage that would be comparatively easy and less costly to check than processing an RMA from another continent.

Granted it's good they are willing to take some sort of action. The unfortunate thing is all it would take is one big distributor/reseller like Krale or Diana to say to SPA, "We will not accept product into our warehouse with damaged barrels" and the problem would be fixed immediately. We deal with this kind of stuff at my place of business on a routine basis and that's the quickest way to remedy a systemic problem. RMA'ing one at a time is the least good way to do it.

Sorry for the rant. I do sincerely hope they do right by you.

Snowpeak doesn’t care because they will just sell to some lazy knuckleheaded outfit like Stoeger or Mrod Air who will rebrand it. That would be a good SPA trivia question. How many names has a P15 had? What I find interesting is after Diana and that guy trying to bamboozle everyone into believing they were getting special premium stuff for the Skyhawks and those guns had all the exact same lotteries that the P15’s had, how is this info not out there. I’ve read it, been a part of it so it has to be out there. Are guys just ignoring it? Yeah I bought one but I knew exactly what I was getting into because of guys like Miksatx and Jarmstrong that posted about their turds. I wanted to burn $450 on some parts they call a gun then build something out of it. I’m not the type of guy who buys lottery tickets or scratchies every day on my way home from work so I just have trouble understanding with all the good guns out there, why do guys still gamble. If Taipan would build a P15/P35/Skyhawk/MX1, it would be lightest nicest handling most accurate bullpup out there.

 

[JimD]

I'm glad Krale is at least taking the first step towards fixing your gun. I'd love to know SPA's rate of warranty returns and how it compares to other similarly priced guns. There was a series of posts about a 177 Taipan that wouldn't shoot well too. I'd hate it if I got a bad one but the next best thing is when the supplier steps up and fixes it.

 

[nervoustrig]

Snowpeak doesn’t care because they will just sell to some lazy knuckleheaded outfit like Stoeger or Mrod Air who will rebrand it. That would be a good SPA trivia question. How many names has a P15 had? What I find interesting is after Diana and that guy trying to bamboozle everyone into believing they were getting special premium stuff for the Skyhawks and those guns had all the exact same lotteries that the P15’s had, how is this info not out there. I’ve read it, been a part of it so it has to be out there. Are guys just ignoring it? Yeah I bought one but I knew exactly what I was getting into because of guys like Miksatx and Jarmstrong that posted about their turds. I wanted to burn $450 on some parts they call a gun then build something out of it. I’m not the type of guy who buys lottery tickets or scratchies every day on my way home from work so I just have trouble understanding with all the good guns out there, why do guys still gamble. If Taipan would build a P15/P35/Skyhawk/MX1, it would be lightest nicest handling most accurate bullpup out there.

Well I agree wholeheartedly with 90% of what you wrote, just not the leading statement (bolded).

Err, okay I'll also grant you the "Mrodair knucklehead" part. But I find it hard to believe if the purchasing agent at Stoeger or Diana told SPA, "We're putting our open POs on hold until you demonstrate corrective action taken on the trashed rifling.", that the SPA salesman would tell them to go bump a stump. Not if he wants to keep his job and most definitely not if he has commission tied to sales volume to a major player like that.

And I realize now I was wrong about this statement:

I lack the words to adequately express my disgust at SPA for this continued incompetence and apathy.

I shouldn't be disgusted at SPA because they are doing precisely what I should expect...the least they can get away with. It's the customer-facing companies like Diana and Stoeger that have allowed this garbage workmanship to persist.

 

[Vetmx]

If Diana just said let us build the gun and use your blueprint, it would be a stellar gun. Stoeger? When it comes to airguns, they are like a craft shop. I agree that it’s the consumers fault that they thumb their noses and won’t fire all the kids with rusty drill bits crowning barrels. I guess they studied economics and know that anything under X amount of money is throw away money in this industry for a large percentage of the consumers. Did Diana finally abandon that gun?

 

[Roachcreek]

That and there is zero incentive to do quality work. They will be paid their starvation wages regardless.

RC

RC

 

[nervoustrig]

I guess they studied economics and know that anything under X amount of money is throw away money in this industry for a large percentage of the consumers. Did Diana finally abandon that gun?

Your theory looks plausible. It looks like they did drop the Skyhawk. It no longer pulls up on Pyramyd Air at least. Meanwhile they still have their name on the SPA CP2 (Chaser) and PR900W (Stormrider).

I think the Skyhawk was around $500. The other two are in the $100 - $250 range. A $500 airgun with such glariing QC issues probably generates a lot of RMAs. The cheaper stuff isn't worth the hassle of the phone calls and emails and shipping.

 

[Roachcreek]

$600.00.

RC

 

[Vetmx]

With all the returns one would think PA would be a parts warehouse for parts these guns. I know years ago lots of guys who wanted to buy and shoot just sent them back. They started or jumped in on topics hoping someone could wave a magic wand but wound up returning them when it involved gunsmiths. Don’t blame them. I’ve been involved with a ton of hobbies and I just can’t recall any other that guys would drop $500-600 on something and hope to get a good one. Maybe hookers.

 

[MrWhite]

I got my P35 back since end of november, but could only test it yesterday. The whole process almost took 12 weeks. That was long. The P35 now shoots 1 inch groups at 40 y with JSB Heavy. I'll need to practice.

Although the tech indicated the muzzle end/crown was indeed rough, it wasn't causing the inaccuracy problems. He actually even said the barrel somewhat performed better than average SPA barrels (meaning "cheap gun" barrels). A damaged breach seal however was causing a leak resulting in loss of target precision. That seal was to be seen in one of the pics I posted. There was a second issue of my DonnyFL adapter having too much thread to screw completely into the shroud,, leaving about the space of a thin fingernail, not totally lining up the moderator onto the shroud.

Eventually the breach seal was replaced and the shroud got some extra threading machined, while adding teflon tape onto the adapter's thread, fixing it securely onto the shroud. The moderator was disassembled and cleaned up from lead debris. Some 100 test shots with an array of pellet types hasn't left any new lead debris in the moderator, showing that has probably been solved.

Once the technician was done, he called me to explain what he had done. He also stated that his work would cost some 150 USD. So I insisted he 'd review that part because I only had the gun for 3 months and didn't perform from the start, showing the breach seal problem was there when I got it. As for the adapter not fitting the shroud, I actually mailed them before buying the piece, asking if it fitted the P35, which they confirmed themselves, only to see the shroud needed more threading after I damaged my moderator because of it. The tech was going to ask around and I got an email the morning after saying they were going to send me the gun back free of charge.

In the end it cost me some 40 USD in shipping fees to send them the P35. Service was free but took almost 3 months. I'm lacking baffles in the shroud, as most got wrecked, but I'll see if I can print some internals to fit (wonder if that 'll withstand the pressure), but that 'll be for another post. The muzzle end/crown is still fugly, but I don't really care, as the gun now performs as it should (6 months after purchasing it however).

 

[JimD]

I'm glad you got your issues fixed under warranty. Sorry it took so long. I have 3D printed moderators in the shroud of two of my P35s. I got them at minimal cost from other forum members. We seem to be still looking for the "best" design but I'm pretty happy with the two I have. They have my P35-25 and P35-22 noise down in the low 80s db range with nearly no clipping risk. Might be another solution to consider.

I think what happens when I get clipping is the shroud shifts forward allowing the baffles to rotate slightly. Curlers are even worse about moving into the pellet path if they have room to move. The grub screw on the shroud back end piece has obviously slid along the barrel some even though it was fairly tight (the barrel is scratched). If you have two good baffles I would put one in first on a half curler wrapped in plastic felt in it and then a full curler with a baffle on the end closest to the half curler then the end cap of the shroud. Before putting in the moderator that was my arrangement in my P35 and it was shooting good and it was quiet. Snug that grub screw up good and use a straw assembling the shroud pieces. The shroud does not to be real tight to the baffles/curlers, it will be quieter if you just take out any looseness and tighten the grub screw.

 

[MrWhite]

I have 3D printed moderators in the shroud of two of my P35s.

Are those only replacing the baffles, or do you have 3D printed baffling fill the back end of the shroud around the barrel too? I was thinking of doing the entire shroud front to end, although I'm not sure it's a good idea as it would surely restrict the internal size of the back end. I did notice that with the moderator attached, firing without a pellet is like super silent, but with a pellet the noise is back (at some low 80's dB). It makes a huge difference and dding a pellet clearly totally changes the air displacement. At this point I'm not sure the back-end of the shroud is a help in silencing, as that surely fills up more when a pellet restricts air flow through the front end. My Huma moderator is too fat too fit directly onto the barrel though. I hope I 'm making some sense here. Or is there another reason why firing with and without a pellet makes such a huge difference in noise level (moderator attached)?

 

[MBG]

Try a Huggett Atom, small and is approximately the same diameter as the shroud, with hair curler mod and Atom its whisper quiet...

 

[JimD]

The moderators I am using only fill the front of the shroud ahead of the aluminum piece screwed to the end of the barrel. There are designs that screw onto the barrel but I prefer to leave the aluminum piece in place to better support the shroud. The only thing I have in the back of the shroud is a hair curler wrapped in felt to minimize any lead dust coming out the vent holes of the shroud. The shroud vents reduce the muzzle report a little and the curler in the back part made the muzzle report 1 or 2 db louder. I really like the shroud design of the P15/35s because with simple changes they make the gun backyard quiet. But clipping can be an issue. It looks like the in shroud moderators will fix that.

 

[MrWhite]

Try a Huggett Atom...

Looks nice. But there isn't much of a point if the moderator is the same width as the shroud if it's not directly attached to the barrel. As you're using the hair curler mod in the shroud, you're using a muffling typr silencing instead of just the original baffles. The idea then is to replace the aluminium barrel end with a printed piece that would allow hair curler style felt muffling throughout the entire shroud. Whether you then attach a Huggett Atam or a Huma modular moderator would make no difference. However it seems no one seems to mod the back end of the shroud, but only the front end by replacing the baffles. The point is eventually to force more air displacement through the front end, through my big ass Huma moderator, which doesn't happen when there 's this unmuffled open back end in the shroud. It's the back end of the shroud that seems to be the weakest part for sound suppression.

 

[MrWhite]

There are designs that screw onto the barrel....

Any idea where I could find those (to recycle as a base for the full shroud design I have in mind). Recycling parts is easier than 3D-designing from scratch.

 

[MBG]

Looks nice. But there isn't much of a point if the moderator is the same width as the shroud if it's not directly attached to the barrel. As you're using the hair curler mod in the shroud, you're using a muffling typr silencing instead of just the original baffles. The idea then is to replace the aluminium barrel end with a printed piece that would allow hair curler style felt muffling throughout the entire shroud. Whether you then attach a Huggett Atam or a Huma modular moderator would make no difference. However it seems no one seems to mod the back end of the shroud, but only the front end by replacing the baffles. The point is eventually to force more air displacement through the front end, through my big ass Huma moderator, which doesn't happen when there 's this unmuffled open back end in the shroud. It's the back end of the shroud that seems to be the weakest part for sound suppression.

Disagree with the assumption that there is no effect, any addition to volume will have an affect on sound suppression, I have the aluminum piece on the end of the barrel, I retain a single metal baffle forward and fitting into this aluminum piece and then add hair curlers with washers, this then forces some of the air backward into the shroud which I have foam inserted cut in the exact diameter of the shroud with the inner section at barrel diameter removed to slide perfectly onto the barrel... This without the Atom is quiet enough but the decibels drop when adding the Atom... Tried every conceivable version from 2 types of 3d printed baffles to 3 different moderators straight to barrel. This is the best combination I have found of noise suppression, looks and keeping the gun as it should be short...

 

[MBG]

SUPPRESSOR / SILENCER PCP /AIRGUN .22 / .177 - ARTEMIS / FOX /SPA P15 (ONIX K2) - STLFinder

suppressor for artemis p15 and its variants.

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Suppressor Core .22 cal. for **Artemis P15, SnowPeak P15, Fox P15, Onix K2, Diana Skyhawk**. Improves the silencing of the gun, has a tighter bore, as well as better tolerance expansion chambers against the holster and reduces the annoying noise of the original tin baffles being too loose...

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https://picatinny.ir/product/baffle-artemis-p15/

 

[MrWhite]

Hey Mike, Good info. Thanks.
I'll try foam around the barrel. I'd imagine that lining the shroud with foam (or felt) would work better than just a printed insert or baffles. The Huma moderators actually have small metal haircurlers in them (wrapped in some heavy felt), so that does work too.