❓ Suited-for-the-barrel Pellets Perform Badly in the Wind? WHY? HOW?

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Wind drift chart above is for Slugs. Pellets are the opposite.

I also see above many old wives tales about subsonic ballistics. For example, faster is better for wind drift because there’s less time for the wind to affect the pellet. WRONG. Or that BC has nothing to do with wind drift WRONG. Or “drift is a function of time of flight and time of flight is a function of BC.” WRONG again. 
And many others, but this has been beaten to death in the past. Just use the search to find older posts that will steer you in the right direction and away from the misconceptions.

The highlighted portion above is straight up BS. Any projectile launched from the same barrel, whether slug or pellet, will experience exactly the same forces therefore the DIRECTIONS of the effects of those forces will not change, let alone actually reverse. The magnitude of the effects will vary, the direction will not.  I stand corrected.

Well I guess we need to look at a REAL authority on ballistics but first:

You will see in print and on line that BC is the most important factor in computing wind drift. THAT is generally a true statement but it is not true that BC directly relates to accuracy or that BC "determines" wind drift. This is because BC determines TIME OF FLIGHT and everything else is relative to TOF.

From here:

USN Exterior Ballistics

This:



The equations require (in addition to values of initial velocity and angle of departure) a value known as the Ballistic Coefficient, C, for their
solution.
This coefficient is a measure of comparison between the retardation of the specific projectile for which the range table is being prepared
and the retardation of a projectile of a specific standard form in air of an arbitrarily chosen standard density.
The expression for C is:

C=w/id(squared)

where

w = weight of projectile in pounds.

d = diameter of the projectile in inches.

i = coefficient of form (the ratio of the retardation of the given projectile to that of a projectile of standard characteristics).

The retardation of the projectile of standard characteristics which is being used as a basis for comparison is available in either the form of a drag coefficient or the form of a resistance curve. The data for such a drag coefficient or resistance curve are available from measurements obtained by actual experimental firings of the standard projectile. It should be noted that i will include not only retardation relations based on form, but any factors, other than weight and diameter, which affect retardation.







I have highlighted the parts to which you need to pay particular attention.

Let's talk about what this implies because what it says is patently obvious and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCURACY, NOTHING AT ALL, PERIOD.

The BC is a number which is paired with a drag model that relates the projectile under study to a reference projectile. It EXPRESSLY relates the "retardation" of the test projectile relative to the "retardation" of the standard projectile used in the drag calculation.

Because it relates the "retardation" of the test projectile to the standard projectile WHEN it is used to calculate said "retardation" what drops out of the equation is an estimate of the change in velocity (Delta V) of the projectile under test at some time (T) after launch. This is COMMONLY referred to as "time of flight" (TOF). After a certain TOF the remaining velocity of the projectile can be projected/predicted RELATIVE TO THE STANDARD PROJECTILE.

A ballistics table such as the one Chairgun or Strelok provide is an iterative calculation. You have to do it that way because computers can not do calculus (for reasons which, while interesting are not relevant here). With a computer you actually have to program the math. So the algorithm calculates the velocity of the projectile starting with the muzzle velocity and moving forward from the barrel at time T, T1, T2, T3 ... Tn. These numbers are actually based upon the distance the projectile travels with the starting velocity. IN OTHER WORDS, they are an APPROXIMATION. The programmer assumes that the projectile has traveled some distance, lets say one foot for our purposes, at the muzzle velocity and then computes the TIME THAT TOOK (TOF). Then using TOF he calculstes the drop due to gravity in that time. That becomes the APPROXIMATION for the velocity at one foot from the muzzle. In this particular example the RESOLUTION of the model is ONE FOOT. Another programmer might choose one inch and do his calculations for each inch of travel. 

Now then there is a curve (an equation for a curve) which describes the "standard projectile" (the model G1, GA ...). That curve defines the drag model for that standard projectile. The "BC" relates the drag of the test projectile to the drag model in use. So once the programmer calculates the velocity of the standard projectile all he has to do is multiply that product by the BC to get the new velocity of the test projectile at the same TIME OF FLIGHT (not the same distance, the same TOF). Everything in these equations is time based because TIME is the only constant in the equations, everything else changes.

Now that we all understand that everything is time based in these equations you can see the relationship between BC and time of flight. Remaining velocity is first computed for the standard projectile at some distance (d) and then time of flight to that distance is calculated and then distance traveled is computed for the test projectile and then remaining velocity is calculated for the test projectile ... rinse and repeat for each distance ... That's how the equations work and that is exactly how they iterate as the model travels down range.

Lots of things fall out of this. First we see that EVERYTHING is a function of TOF. Everything depends upon TOF EVERYTHING. Drift, drop, remaining velocity, distance traveled, EVERYTHING is a function of TOF. Second we see that BC clearly relates to one thing only, the standard projectile. The ONLY thing BC does is modify the distance traveled in the TOF equation. That's is it. PERIOD. If the distance traveled at some velocity (V) for the standard projectile is some number (N) then the distance traveled by the test projectile in the same TOF is BC times N AND THIS IS AN APPROXIMATION.

What does BC NOT tell us? BC tells us absolutely NOTHING about the wind drift characteristics of the projectile except in head and tail winds where drift is actually zero and wind adds or subtracts from drop.

Let's talk about WIND drift for a moment. Wind drift is principally a function of TWO things. The first thing is the side projection of the projectile. Consider two pellets having the same BC, weight and same caliber, shot at the same velocity, from the same gun, one having a tiny wasp waist and the other with a more conical section like a "monster". The one with the "wasp" waist will very likely experience LESS wind drift BECAUSE that side profile presents LESS area for the wind to act upon.

How do we calculate wind drift? Well you see THERE IS NO SIMILAR CONSTANT FOR BC in the equations for wind drift. It is a straight acceleration calculation using TOF and the drift measured for the standard projectile. That is to say, in my couple of decades of doing such calculations, I personally have never run across any model which contained a constant like BC used to compute wind drift relative to the standard projectile (the model G1, GA ... ect). Maybe such a thing exists and someone will be kind enough to point me to it...

The equations we are talking about here are not that complicated or hard to understand but there are multiple equations all working together to produce the information we want. There are a number of interactions and there are different ways of LOOKING at the math. The one thing which is always CONSTANT in these equations is the passage of time and therefore THAT is what scientists and programmers consider the base premise. It is all about TOF.
 
You're certainly entitled to your OPINIONs, and you can also believe whatever you want. Have at it. The wind rose is different for Pellets and Slugs. If you actually shot pellets in competition you would know that. I could explain why, but you've already made up your mind. You COULD try and read the articles in HARDAIR magazine written by Bob Sterne...

PS., please show me where I said BC has anything to do with accuracy? Ahhh, that's correct, I didn't. Because it doesn't. Somehow you read that into my post? PS., I do appreciate all the writings above, and the effort you put into it. But I still think you are WRONG... PPS, being a Nuclear Engineer, I do have a little math in my background. ;)

One last thought. You seem obsessed with Time of Flight (TOF). So tell me this, if TOF is everything, explain why a pellet at 850FPS going the same distance as a pellet going at 1050 FPS has LESS wind drift in the same cross wind? BAM! Blows your mind doesn't it?... I'm only discussing subsonic ballistics here, you could be correct for supersonic flight, I wouldn't know since I shoot air guns.
 
You may be right
I may be crazy
Oh, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
Turn out the light
Don't try to save me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right

@oldspook - PS., ,are you sticking to your wind rose being correct for pellets? Cause you know you're wrong there, pellets and slugs react differently to wind. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with the CG being forward of the CP for pellets. Put that in your slide rule... ;)

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/vertical-deflection-for-pellets-in-crosswind/
 
TIME is the only constant in the equations, everything else changes.

Again, not quite accurate. You're forgetting about what's pulling that pellet down to create the trajectory arch (gravity). (ps, it's kinda constant too). 

Let's talk about WIND drift for a moment. Wind drift is principally a function of TWO things. The first thing is the side projection of the projectile. Consider two pellets having the same BC, weight and same caliber, shot at the same velocity, from the same gun, one having a tiny wasp waist and the other with a more conical section like a "monster". The one with the "wasp" waist will very likely experience LESS wind drift BECAUSE that side profile presents LESS area for the wind to act upon.

Also, not quite accurate. It sounds nice, and perhaps even plausible, but isn't true in reality. I can definitively say that because I've tried your exact example (JSB 18.13 vs JSB 25.39) and the 25.39s drift roughly 1/3 the distance of the 18.13s). This is of course at any appreciable distance past the 25 or 35 yards I saw you recently posting results from elsewhere here on AGN,. 

(and it's physically impossible to have two pellets the same weight/caliber/etc and have one be as wasp waist and the other a trashcan, if they were the same weight the length would change, which would change the BC). 

Furthermore, if your argument was true, then .177 (smallest side profile) would be kicking A$$ in long range competitions, and it simply isn't. 








 
TIME is the only constant in the equations, everything else changes.

Again, not quite accurate. You're forgetting about what's pulling that pellet down to create the trajectory arch (gravity). (ps, it's kinda constant too). 

Let's talk about WIND drift for a moment. Wind drift is principally a function of TWO things. The first thing is the side projection of the projectile. Consider two pellets having the same BC, weight and same caliber, shot at the same velocity, from the same gun, one having a tiny wasp waist and the other with a more conical section like a "monster". The one with the "wasp" waist will very likely experience LESS wind drift BECAUSE that side profile presents LESS area for the wind to act upon.

Also, not quite accurate. It sounds nice, and perhaps even plausible, but isn't true in reality. I can definitively say that because I've tried your exact example (JSB 18.13 vs JSB 25.39) and the 25.39s drift roughly 1/3 the distance of the 18.13s). This is of course at any appreciable distance past the 25 or 35 yards I saw you recently posting results from elsewhere here on AGN,. 

Furthermore, if you're argument was true, then .177 (smallest side profile) would be kicking A$$ in long range competitions, and it simply isn't. 









That's a good point. Actually gravity is not a constant and neither is time but that is knit picking. The constants upon which exterior ballistics are based are the acceleration due to gravity and the rate of change of time... BUT like I said knit picking.

Maybe you should actually read what I wrote BEFORE passing judgement? Read it, I highlighted it for you.

Regarding the assertion that the .177 should be kicking ass. If it were that simple anyone could do it, right? There are a number of factors at play here. One of them is BC. One of them is cross section. There are others, twist rate and direction, velocity ... They all play together, don't they? but you knew that ...

You have ONE example of an experiment you did at what you consider "long" range. Ok, no problem. Lets talk about your experiment.

You tested the JSB Heavy and the JSB Monster at what range? What muzzle velocity? What drift did you measure? Do you think if you had launched them both at the same muzzle velocity you would have gotten the same results?

All you have offered really is one anecdotal report, no measurements, no data, literally just your conclusions, as observed on your range under unknown conditions.

Well done.
 
You may be right
I may be crazy
Oh, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
Turn out the light
Don't try to save me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right

@oldspook - PS., ,are you sticking to your wind rose being correct for pellets? Cause you know you're wrong there, pellets and slugs react differently to wind. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with the CG being forward of the CP for pellets. Put that in your slide rule... ;)

Still saying the "music major" cum nuclear engineer does math ...

I see you edited the link into your post.


Seems like I have heard that one before. Might as well link it and I'll eat my words in front of you if I agree with the link or tell you why I disagree. I don't have any reputation to loose here. I do understand the math well enough to admit any error, do you? Really? Give me the link, let me digest it. My mind is NOT closed.

Regarding the vertical jump component of SPIN DRIFT associated wind drift being the opposite of that for a slug because of the fact that a pellet is nose heavy and a bullet is tail heavy (CG/CP vs CG/CP).  I was wrong. I thought I had seen the reference you linked somewhere before. Thanks for the link.

Now it is your turn: Explain to me how any part of that article shows that any of my assertions regarding pellets, BC, or wind drift are incorrect. If you need help, maybe ask Mr. Sterne. :) The thread is about pellets.
wink_smile.gif
Right back at ya… there "nuclear engineer" …
 
Was a little more to it than that. Competed with the 18.13 and 25.4s in Extreme Field Target (distances from 20-100 yards). Roughly 1/3rd the drift conclusion was also reached through numerous prairie dog pesting trips 9out to 180 yards). Additional nail in the coffin for the 18.13s vs the 25.4s was done shooting at targets on large cardboard boxes at various distances from 20-125 yards. 

Again, if the "smaller and/or wasp-waisted is better argument" was anything near factual, THAT is what EBR/RMAC/Xtreme FT/PA cup shooters would be using. And they're not.

Buy some, try some (at far enough distances to matter), report back. 

(It's been some years, but all the calculations we did in the physics classes in college used a constant for gravity, at least for any applicable use of the concept of gravity). 
 
Was a little more to it than that. Competed with the 18.13 and 25.4s in Extreme Field Target (distances from 20-100 yards). Roughly 1/3rd the drift conclusion was also reached through numerous prairie dog pesting trips 9out to 180 yards). Additional nail in the coffin for the 18.13s vs the 25.4s was done shooting at targets on large cardboard boxes at various distances from 20-125 yards. 

Again, if the "smaller and/or wasp-waisted is better argument" was anything near factual, THAT is what EBR/RMAC/Xtreme FT/PA cup shooters would be using. And they're not.

Buy some, try some (at far enough distances to matter), report back.


So muzzle velocity has nothing to do with it? I get it. It is all about how you FEEL about what you have SEEN... Not the data you have collected or which you can present. I will take your opinion under advisement. Don't wait for me to write a white paper explaining how ballistics modeling needs to change based upon those feelings.
 
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