Taipan Veteran Long LW barrel - trying to find appropriate slugs

[MushroomPsyche]

I'm trying to find the best slug for my gun. I want to say that my gun is first and foremost a pellet shooter. I tuned my gun (Taipan Veteran Long .22 LW barrel) specifically as a suburban backyard varmint rifle to shoot the 15.89gr Hades at 31 FPE. Most of my shots are well within 40 meters. I'm trying to double duty the rifle to shoot slugs because I want to start practicing shooting targets at longer distances and because it's just nice to know that my gun will shoot beyond 75 meters if I ever need to.

Having said all that, I bought some NSA 17.5gr samplers 3 years back; 0.2155, 0.216, and 0.2165. I just recently tested them a few nights ago.

Hades 15.89gr - Shooting at 31.85 FPE
NSA 17.5gr 0.2155" - Shot at 29.55 FPE. This is the lowest FPE of all the projectiles that I've tried suggesting that the slug is too small for the barrel causing a lot of air to escape. Grouping was not good at all at 31 meters.
NSA 17.5gr 0.216" - Grouping was a bit worse than the previous slug but it was shooting at 30.25 FPE which tells me that it's a better fit.
NSA 17.5gr 0.2165" - This is the best of the slugs I've tried. It was sub MOA at 28 meters. 0.265" center-to-center. I know it's a short distance but it gives me something that I can test at further distances when I get the chance. This also shot the closest to the Hades' FPE at 31.27 FPE. This tells me that the slug is sealing well against the barrel without much drag.

Because of my findings, I ordered 900 rounds of the 17.5gr 0.2165". I measured the unfired slug and with my calipers. My caliper is only precise down to 0.001" but it looks to me that it's closer to the 0.217" mark than the 0.216". Also, the dish at the bottom of the slug seems to cause it to flare outwards a bit. I measured the diameter at the bottom and it's just a tiny smidge below 0.218".

Now, I'm not doing all these measurements to compare to what the spec sheet says. I'm trying to measure as precisely as I can (without having to buying a micrometer) so that I can compare that to my barrel's dimensions.

I recovered a Hades pellet shot through water and measured it. According to that, the grooves of my barrel is a smidge over 0.216". This was confirmed with measurements from a recovered NSA slug having the exact same measurement. The Hades' skirt started out at 0.226" and the NSA started out at 0.218" at their widest, so I am 100% sure that with the 0.216" measurements after being shot, they are touching the grooves in the barrel at the choke.

Again, I know that I'm only using a vernier caliper but I have measured, re-measured, and measured some more and reading with magnification, I am quite confident of my measurements as best as my calipers will offer.

All I said above so I can ask if you think it would be worth it to try the NSA 17.5gr 0.217 caliber slugs. The NSA 0.2165 is already shooting well in my gun and I don't know if I should keep chasing that rabbit down the hole. One thing though, some of the comments from experts that I've read say that it's recommended that the slug is at the maximum only be 0.001" over the size of the barrel's grooves. @Motorhead said in one of his posts that it's actually better that the slug doesn't touch the barrel's grooves. He said that a slug that touches the barrel's grooves will actually cause more drag (FPE loss) and foul the barrel quicker. This is with the caveat that the barrel's lands have a firm hold on the projectile. My barrel's bore measurement seems to be at 0.210" so I think I'm covered in that regard.

I'm thinking that even though the 0.217 slugs shoot well in my gun, I might still prefer to use the 0.2165 regularly because of the barrel fouling issue.

Sorry for my long ramblings but I just want to be as precise as I could and because I'm also making this post as a note to my future self.

 

[JaceSpace1369]

I'm trying to find the best slug for my gun. I want to say that my gun is first and foremost a pellet shooter. I tuned my gun (Taipan Veteran Long .22 LW barrel) specifically as a suburban backyard varmint rifle to shoot the 15.89gr Hades at 31 FPE. Most of my shots are well within 40 meters. I'm trying to double duty the rifle to shoot slugs because I want to start practicing shooting targets at longer distances and because it's just nice to know that my gun will shoot beyond 75 meters if I ever need to.

Having said all that, I bought some NSA 17.5gr samplers 3 years back; 0.2155, 0.216, and 0.2165. I just recently tested them a few nights ago.

Hades 15.89gr - Shooting at 31.85 FPE
NSA 17.5gr 0.2155" - Shot at 29.55 FPE. This is the lowest FPE of all the projectiles that I've tried suggesting that the slug is too small for the barrel causing a lot of air to escape. Grouping was not good at all at 31 meters.
NSA 17.5gr 0.216" - Grouping was a bit worse than the previous slug but it was shooting at 30.25 FPE which tells me that it's a better fit.
NSA 17.5gr 0.2165" - This is the best of the slugs I've tried. It was sub MOA at 28 meters. 0.265" center-to-center. I know it's a short distance but it gives me something that I can test at further distances when I get the chance. This also shot the closest to the Hades' FPE at 31.27 FPE. This tells me that the slug is sealing well against the barrel without much drag.

Because of my findings, I ordered 900 rounds of the 17.5gr 0.2165". I measured the unfired slug and with my calipers. My caliper is only precise down to 0.001" but it looks to me that it's closer to the 0.217" mark than the 0.216". Also, the dish at the bottom of the slug seems to cause it to flare outwards a bit. I measured the diameter at the bottom and it's just a tiny smidge below 0.218".

Now, I'm not doing all these measurements to compare to what the spec sheet says. I'm trying to measure as precisely as I can (without having to buying a micrometer) so that I can compare that to my barrel's dimensions.

I recovered a Hades pellet shot through water and measured it. According to that, the grooves of my barrel is a smidge over 0.216". This was confirmed with measurements from a recovered NSA slug having the exact same measurement. The Hades' skirt started out at 0.226" and the NSA started out at 0.218" at their widest, so I am 100% sure that with the 0.216" measurements after being shot, they are touching the grooves in the barrel at the choke.

Again, I know that I'm only using a vernier caliper but I have measured, re-measured, and measured some more and reading with magnification, I am quite confident of my measurements as best as my calipers will offer.

All I said above so I can ask if you think it would be worth it to try the NSA 17.5gr 0.217 caliber slugs. The NSA 0.2165 is already shooting well in my gun and I don't know if I should keep chasing that rabbit down the hole. One thing though, some of the comments from experts that I've read say that it's recommended that the slug is at the maximum only be 0.001" over the size of the barrel's grooves. @Motorhead said in one of his posts that it's actually better that the slug doesn't touch the barrel's grooves. He said that a slug that touches the barrel's grooves will actually cause more drag (FPE loss) and foul the barrel quicker. This is with the caveat that the barrel's lands have a firm hold on the projectile. My barrel's bore measurement seems to be at 0.210" so I think I'm covered in that regard.

I'm thinking that even though the 0.217 slugs shoot well in my gun, I might still prefer to use the 0.2165 regularly because of the barrel fouling issue.

Sorry for my long ramblings but I just want to be as precise as I could and because I'm also making this post as a note to my future self.

View attachment 482417

Because those slugs have antimony and are not pure lead, you will experience far less fouling than if you were to shoot the others. Now, the 17.5gr slugs are also known as "square slugs", suggesting that their sides aren't all even.

Instead of jumping to another size I would suggest going for the 20.2gr slugs in the same size dia And see how those perform.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Because those slugs have antimony and are not pure lead, you will experience far less fouling than if you were to shoot the others. Now, the 17.5gr slugs are also known as "square slugs", suggesting that their sides aren't all even.

Instead of jumping to another size I would suggest going for the 20.2gr slugs in the same size dia And see how those perform.

Thank you for the suggestion. Yes, I was thinking of trying out that weight but I though I should get the sizing squared away first before I go out spending even more money on slugs.

 

[Ranchibi]

Once you find the correct diameter slug that also suits your barrel's twist rate (for accuracy) trying larger diameter slugs will most likely only slow the slugs speed and like said above, foul your barrel quicker. Also, having a clean barrel can also help with accuracy. I shoot the NSA 17.5gr .2175 & 20.2gr @ 950fps & 930 thru my RAW. You already did the toughest part by finding the correct diameter and speed your barrel needs, nice job!

 

[sonnysan]

Based on all your information, a few things jump out at me.

1. Buy a micrometer. There are many on amazon, and they are not expensive.
2. Slug your barrel from the breech.
3. Try 20.2 the 23gr. .217 varieties.

From personal experience, I could never get 17.5gr, to work in anything. I have a few guns that absolutely love the 20.2gr. .217 slug, such as the daystate wolverine hi-lite that shoots in the low 30FPE range.
I also have a number of AA guns. The .217 23gr. NSA works wonders in my AA S400 and S510 guns. The velocities are not high, but are tack drivers with this round. I remember the S400 is xtra FAC, and shoots 26FPE. The 510 is even lower. I think 23FPE.

https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/bullets/nielsen-specialty-ammo-.217-caliber-20.2-grain-hollow-point-dish-base/

Nielsen Specialty Ammo .217 Slugs 23 grain Hollow Point Flatbase: Airguns of Arizona

If you don't want to spend anymore money, what you have works. Shoot all of it, then re-evaluate.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Thank you for the suggestions everyone. A few hours ago I caved in and ordered a micrometer. I'll get it tomorrow but we'll see how close my measurements were with the caliper.

I think my next order from NSA will be the 17.5gr 0.217, 20.2gr in 0.2165 and 0.217. I'm not too sure I want to go with the next heavier 23gr as I really don't want to go much over 30 FPE. I might go to 33 or maybe 35 FPE max, depending on how well the 20.2gr shoots in my gun. My gun can be tuned to 40 FPE with all stock parts but I really want to stay below 35 FPE for a backyard varmint rifle and I want to stay with the Hades 15.89gr on the pellet side.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

I got my micrometer earlier this morning and spent a few hours playing with it and practicing. It is not easy to get a very precise measurement from it and it definitely takes a certain feel for it. It was very hard to measure especially the pellets as it's so easy to "fall" off the high diameter that I'm trying to measure.

It's also amazing how precise this instrument is. At first, I will make my measurements and when I check zero, it was always returning about 0.0005 off zero. I thought it might be body heat, but that's not it. I then realized that with the caliper, I am in a habit of wiping the surfaces regularly. Sure enough, that was the issue with the micrometer. As I'm measuring the pellets and slugs, lead dust is collecting on the surfaces. A quick wipe and it was back to zero.

On to the projectiles, I noticed that the NSA 17.5gr 0.2165 slugs that I bought in 2021 and the ones I received a few days ago have different diameters. I'm quite certain that they're using different dies. The one from 2021 was measuring 0.2164" which is very close to the spec but the 2024 ones are measuring 0.2169". I've measured many of them and opened all 3 boxes I have and the measurements are consistent. I haven't shot these newer slugs yet but I'm sure it will be ok with my gun. I'm just documenting it for consistency's sake if I ever decide to load up on these slugs. It also makes me wonder if I step a size up to the 0.217 caliber if it will have the same tolerances.

Anyways, I measured the 2021 NSA 17.5gr 0.2165 caliber slug that I shot a few night ago. I measured many times as I know how important this measurement is in regards to barrel sizing and how difficult it is to measure. These are the numbers I got; 0.21625" 0.216" 0.21542" 0.21565" 0.2156" 0.2158" 0.2153" 0.2152" for an average of 0.21565". I am quite certain that this is the groove diameter of my LW barrel at the choke. Looking back when I tested the 2021 NSA 0.2155 caliber (which actually measured true to spec), it was shooting quite a bit slower which tells me that even though It's practically the same size as the barrel's grooves at the choke, it is quite loose and not sealing well before getting to the choke.

The Hades pellet as I mentioned was very difficult to measure but it definitely has more variations in the measurements most likely because of how thin the edge of the skirt is. I measured the skirt of the shot pellet and these are the numbers I got; 0.2102", 0.21085", 0.2104", 0.2117", 0.2133", 0.2113" for an average of 0.2113". It is smaller than the slug and I'm not sure exactly what is going on but I'm just reporting my findings. One reason I can think of is the high points on the pellet's skirts are more pinpoints compared to the slug and I think it makes such a tiny area much easier to compress when taking the readings. I looked at how small the difference is between the pellet and the slug by opening the micrometer to the same amount and I can barely see it with my eyes.

I also tried measuring the head of the pellet but I'm getting wildly inconsistent measurements likely because the Hades has started to deform at the hollow point.

The general recommendation of sizing the slug by about 0.001" larger than the barrel's groove diamter at the choke is definitely in effect here. I know I'm a sample of one but it shows me it's sound advice because the slug that shot best out of my gun is within this recommended range.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

This morning, I tried out those 2024 NSA 17.5gr 0.2165 slugs and it's no good in my gun. We're talking almost an inch groups at 31 meters. This is the chrono shot string for this session. Velocities are very consistent so I know it's not an issue with the gun's tune. FPS = 899, 903, 897, 900, 899, 898, 899, 897, 898, 902, 901, 901, 898.

I emailed NSA yesterday and he wouldn't confirm if the 2021 and the 2024 slugs came from different dies. When I asked about the size discrepancy between the 2, he said that the slugs come from precision dies and that it's very hard to measure precisely especially with such a short slug. I do agree that it's very hard to measure but I'm sitting here with 2 obviously different slugs that supposedly came from precision dies. It's obvious that one or the other is not up to specifications. The color is different as well so I'm not sure if there was a change in composition between the 2 slugs.

I will say though that within each batch, the dimensions are VERY consistent.

To recap, I have a sampler pack of the NSA 17.5gr 0.2165 that shot sub-MOA in my gun at 31 meters. The issue is, I bought that sampler 3 years ago and just now got around to testing it. My mistake is I made my purchasing decision based on a 3 year old sample that I have.

 

[Franklink]

Extremely tight chokes in Taipan barrels. Projectiles that Ive pushed through measure about 0.212-0.213 if you go all the way through the barrel. And about 0.217 if I push only to the choke and then back out the breech.

From that comparison, I've concluded that the bore is about 0.217 and the choke is 0.212-0.213, which seems to agree with what you're finding.

I've not had any positive results trying to shoot slugs from OEM .22 Taipan barrels. And Ive tried multiple .22 OEM Taipan barrels and multiple varieties of slugs in them.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Extremely tight chokes in Taipan barrels. Projectiles that Ive pushed through measure about 0.212-0.213 if you go all the way through the barrel. And about 0.217 if I push only to the choke and then back out the breech.

From that comparison, I've concluded that the bore is about 0.217 and the choke is 0.212-0.213, which seems to agree with what you're finding.

I've not had any positive results trying to shoot slugs from OEM .22 Taipan barrels. And Ive tried multiple .22 OEM Taipan barrels and multiple varieties of slugs in them.

Yes, that's what I'm finding for my bore diameter at the chock as well ; around 0.212". What I don't understand is why 0.0005" (from 0.2164" to 0.2169") made such a huge difference in my gun. The only thing I can think of is that NSA is using a harder lead formula this time. With that said, I read a comment from NSA in the forums where in 2021, he stated that they've been using the same formula for the last 3 years at the time. This is a thread discussing the hardness of NSA slugs. I bought those good shooting 0.2165 slugs in February 2021. Looking in the forums, it seems that the middle of that year is when NSA started using faster machinery to swage their slugs. Later that year was when all the discussions about the hardness of the NSA slugs began.

 

[Franklink]

Yes, that's what I'm finding for my bore diameter at the chock as well ; around 0.212". What I don't understand is why 0.0005" (from 0.2164" to 0.2169") made such a huge difference in my gun. The only thing I can think of is that NSA is using a harder lead formula this time. With that said, I read a comment from NSA in the forums where in 2021, he stated that they've been using the same formula for the last 3 years at the time. This is a thread discussing the hardness of NSA slugs. I bought those good shooting 0.2165 slugs in February 2021. Looking in the forums, it seems that the middle of that year is when NSA started using faster machinery to swage their slugs. Later that year was when all the discussions about the hardness of the NSA slugs began.

I don't think the hardness is the issue. NSA are harder than JSB, but not as hard as JTS or Crosman pellets. The issues I've had with the really hard projectiles has not been had with NSA.

I suspect the culprit is the tight choke. Chokes can be eased up and made to work with slugs, specifically NSA slugs. 280 grit clover lapping compound on a really tight patch (or better yet a lead lap) focused at the choke will lessen it. The best slug shooting barrels I've seen have a choke, just not an extremely aggressive one like you're dealing with in the Veteran barrel.

 

[TimeRabbit]

I have a .22 Vet with the CZUB barrel it likes Griffin Slugs .22 Caliber .217" - LDC - Cup Base 17-21-23 Grain they also have .218 options.
We have different barrels but both have a tight choke so maybe the Griffins are worth a shot. I tried all NSA had to offer my barrel didn't like any of them not even a little.

 

[Franklink]

I have a .22 Vet with the CZUB barrel it likes Griffin Slugs .22 Caliber .217" - LDC - Cup Base 17-21-23 Grain they also have .218 options.
We have different barrels but both have a tight choke so maybe the Griffins are worth a shot. I tried all NSA had to offer my barrel didn't like any of them not even a little.

I tried Griffins in mine as well. Been too long to remember what size. They did okay ish out to 50 yards but really opened up at 100.

Griffins ARE much softer lead, probably about JSB pellet in hardness.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

I have a .22 Vet with the CZUB barrel it likes Griffin Slugs .22 Caliber .217" - LDC - Cup Base 17-21-23 Grain they also have .218 options.
We have different barrels but both have a tight choke so maybe the Griffins are worth a shot. I tried all NSA had to offer my barrel didn't like any of them not even a little.

I ordered a few more different slugs from Pyramyd Air but the Griffin slugs will be the next I will try if none of the ones I just ordered works.

 

[jdanvers]

Long story short - I bought a .22 vet long 4 or 5 years ago. They ( Taipan ) then came out with their 700mm "slug barrel" - of course I had to have one. It was extremely frustratingly hit & miss and I wound up shelving it and just going back to the OEM 550mm barrel and pellets.

. . . . a year or so passes and that expensive tube (700mm barrel) just sitting on a shelf collecting dust - I decide to give it another go. Again - it's no go. I have a "theory" though and decide that I'm going to "stiffen" it up AND get rid of the choke by chopping it down and turning it into a 600mm. I found a local machinist who was willing to do the work for me (cut, re-thread, re-crown) for a reasonable fee and . . .

It's one of my guns that I no longer ever dink with - it *loves* 23g H&N's in .217 at 935 fps and is dead accurate out to 120 or so yds. ( I just went upstairs and looked at the turret - I don't have it ranged beyond that ) Granted I don't shoot it much anymore - my RTI's get used the most @present but when I do pull that one out - she's a keeper. I just feed it air and ammo and do not / will not dink with it. ( I just thought - I do have a heavier hammer spring in it and one of the power plenum add on tube thingies . . . ) It's dark out now but maybe tomorrow when light I'll post up a pic of it.

 

[Franklink]

Long story short - I bought a .22 vet long 4 or 5 years ago. They ( Taipan ) then came out with their 700mm "slug barrel" - of course I had to have one. It was extremely frustratingly hit & miss and I wound up shelving it and just going back to the OEM 550mm barrel and pellets.

. . . . a year or so passes and that expensive tube (700mm barrel) just sitting on a shelf collecting dust - I decide to give it another go. Again - it's no go. I have a "theory" though and decide that I'm going to "stiffen" it up AND get rid of the choke by chopping it down and turning it into a 600mm. I found a local machinist who was willing to do the work for me (cut, re-thread, re-crown) for a reasonable fee and . . .

It's one of my guns that I no longer ever dink with - it *loves* 23g H&N's in .217 at 935 fps and is dead accurate out to 120 or so yds. ( I just went upstairs and looked at the turret - I don't have it ranged beyond that ) Granted I don't shoot it much anymore - my RTI's get used the most @present but when I do pull that one out - she's a keeper. I just feed it air and ammo and do not / will not dink with it. ( I just thought - I do have a heavier hammer spring in it and one of the power plenum add on tube thingies . . . ) It's dark out now but maybe tomorrow when light I'll post up a pic of it.

A friend bought one of those 700mm barrels and I installed it for him.....it definitely had the standard Taipan barrel machining specs.( TIGHT choke).

 

[MushroomPsyche]

I did one more test tonight with the 2024 0.2165 slugs. This time, I lubed it. I was quite certain it won't do anything but I just want be certain that I'm not missing anything. 5 shot group can be seen on the top left target. 31 meters 1.28" C-T-C group so no good at all.

I re-tested the 2021 0.216 slugs. I wanted to do it much more carefully this time since I didn't have the buttstock supported when I initially did the test a few nights ago. 5 shot group for that is on the bottom left. 31 meters 0.50" C-T-C (0.16" without the flyer). I would be happy with this group, but again, this is a sample from 3 years ago and I'm a bit gun shy to buy anymore of the current NSAs. It would really help a lot if they still sold sample packs but for some reason, they got rid of those smaller packs.

 

[Vetmx]

Your first mistake is you trying to decide on which slug you want to shoot out of your gun. You might have FPE limitations but that doesn’t mean squat to your barrel. The second issue is you want to start shooting them to extend your range over a good pellet. If that’s the case I highly doubt you’ll do it with a square 17.5gr slug. You need a slug that starts resembling a real bullet. So now you jump to a 23+ grain slug. But if it doesn’t fit your leade, you’re done. So it’s back to shooting pellets because that’s what the gun was designed for. It’s ok to face the hard facts. Unless you have a lathe and the proper tools, sometimes it’s just game over unless you can accept less out of a slug over a pellet just to claim you have a slug gun.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Your first mistake is you trying to decide on which slug you want to shoot out of your gun. You might have FPE limitations but that doesn’t mean squat to your barrel. The second issue is you want to start shooting them to extend your range over a good pellet. If that’s the case I highly doubt you’ll do it with a square 17.5gr slug. You need a slug that starts resembling a real bullet. So now you jump to a 23+ grain slug. But if it doesn’t fit your leade, you’re done. So it’s back to shooting pellets because that’s what the gun was designed for. It’s ok to face the hard facts. Unless you have a lathe and the proper tools, sometimes it’s just game over unless you can accept less out of a slug over a pellet just to claim you have a slug gun.

No, I never said that I HAVE to shoot NSA slugs nor any certain weight or size projectile. I never even said that I have to shoot slugs out of the gun at all. What I said was I tested a sampler slug that shot well in my gun, bought what's supposed to be the same slugs 3 years later and it doesn't work. I'm trying to see if I can make them work since I'm stuck with 900 rounds of them anyways. And yea, you're right, no luck with it, so that's case closed for that particular slug as far as I'm concerned.

It might seem that I'm trying so hard to get NSA 17.5gr to work in my gun but it just so happened that those are the slugs that I decided to start off with, and since I have already tried 4 different varieties of it, I figured that if I get a few more sizes, I know I would have exhausted all of my options regarding that particular weight slug from that particular vendor. I also said above that I just placed an order for a few more different slugs. That order includes up to 23gr and 25gr that are not NSA.

What I want from the slugs is not necessarily just the range, but more importantly to me, the energy delivered on target. If I can shoot accurately to 75 meters, I will be very happy with that.

As I said in my post above, my gun is first and foremost a pellet shooter and I'm happy with it as it is; a 31 FPE pellet gun as a suburban backyard varmint rifle. I love the gun's limited power for this purpose. I just wanted to experiment a bit, just like any of us here, and see if the gun will shoot slugs decently in it's current configuration. If it works, great, if not, I'm not down too much money.

 

[Vetmx]

There are several pellets that hit very hard out to 75 yards. But like a slug, your gun has to like them. A 75 yard window is the perfect situation for a pellet gun. My CZ Taipan can push a Polymag 935-940fps dead accurate out to 75 and things fall dead. It’s just as fun and definitely less frustrating experimenting with how fast you can push a pellet vs a slug because a pellet won’t go to waste if you have to back them back down. Either way if slugs don’t work out, you can still experiment with warp speed pellets if you haven’t already.